Holding Tank Pump

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:21 pm

Hi All,

Over the next two years I'm going to be cruising many months off the coast and also out of the country. Places where there are no holding tank pump out stations.

When I'm sailing outside the 3 mile limit I'll just divert the head overboard. When in foreign harbors my understanding is that most cruisiers just divert their heads directly overboard there too. I would prefer not to do this but would rather pump the waste overboard out of the holding tank while sailing in the deep water the between islands. A pump system would also give me a way to empty the tank for servicing or cleaning when far from home.

My idea is a three way valve inserted into the 1.5" line that goes to the waste deck fitting. With the valve set one way there is no functional change from my current set up and waste can be pumped out through the deck at any pump-out station. With the valve turned the other way though, waste is diverted to a macerator pump which pumps it through a 1" line and out through a 1" seacock. The macerator pump will be turned on and off manually at the macerator pump location. This system requires the proper setting of seacocks and ball valves to isolate the tank and make sure there are no nasty explosions. A "Check valve positions twice, throw switch once" kind of deal.

While I'm sure the plumbing will work fine I'm not sure that there are any guidelines for electric pumps on holding tanks or specific regulations. Or, if there are any better ways of doing this.

Thoughts and ideas are welcome.

George

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:07 pm

George,

I can't speak to your system details, but you're right that there are basically no pump-outs "out there." It's one of those things you only talk about with close friends. (Oh, we must be getting to be good buddies, we can talk about what we do with human waste out here.)

There are always a few boats that never leave the anchorage, and you *know* they can't have 500-gallon holding tanks..... But we generally tried to pump solids into our holding tank when at anchor and then did as you plan to, and emptied it at sea. At a few places we did pump at anchor, but then only if we were in a place with a current or on an outgoing tide and at night. Of course that being said, the local population in one place we stayed a while (San Blas) had a "bathroom" setup that entailed walking out to an outhouse at the end of a pier -- where it's usually dark at the bottom of the hole, theirs sported sparkling water when you looked down. Lent a whole new meaning to "waterfront" property, when it was bristling with them.

I will spare the group specifics, but it's good to have a method to isolate urine from "solids" in order to conserve on your holding tank when you're at anchor for awhile.

--- R.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:04 am

The most likely damage to a holding tank system during operation is implosion. Waste is added to the tank slowly and in quantities that are rarely able to increase pressure significantly even if the vent isn't working well. But the rapid rate that deck pump outs work and that you are totally emptying the tank is another story. A pressure release valve in the tank can deal with this well. Dometic/Sealand has a great one. http://www.sealandtechnology.com/produc ... asp?pid=68

I find that the most likely place for a leak or just permeation of odors is the ball valve or manual discharge pumps. Unless you really must have the direct over board option, a system can be laid out to not even need a valve at all.

The outlet for emptying the tank can simply be split to go to the deck pump out fitting (found in most marine catalogs with fuel and water fittings as a deck fill fitting) and to the discharge pump. There is no need for a valve. The discharge pump should have joker valves or the like to prevent water from coming back through it even when pumping out by suction from the deck fitting. And if you close your discharge seacock there is no where but the tank to draw from at all. A deck fitting has an o-ring so that when your discharge pump is in operation it can only draw from the tank.

Where the black water goes from your toilet and how is where most systems fail to stay odor free. I use a wye valve here. I only have one head and if my tank is full and I can't discharge it for what ever reason I am out of business with out the direct overboard option. And like Rachel said; separating your solides from urine saves the impact on your tank capacity. If you have 2 heads, each with its own tank then I would consider not even having the wye valve and direct discharge route. With no direct discharge the vented loop can be eliminated as well. If you have discharge pumps then you can just empty the tanks as needed to make room for more when off-shore (3 mile limit in most regions). The downfall for 1 head boats is pump failure and a full tank and no back up (another head system ).

From the wye valve if you go this route; you can go directly to the tank, or to the discharge seacock by going through a vented loop and joining the hose after the discharge pump on the way to the seacock. Again, the joker valves in the discharge pump effectively block the line back into the tank. Therefore the black water discharge from the toilet directly overboard won't back up towards the tank as it will be blocked at the pump. I always recommend, if possible to install the discharge pump higher than the tank. This way there is no standing black water in the system. No standing black water means less permeation of odors and nothing to drain when disconnecting lines to service components like pumps.

Even if you don't have or want to buy a Vacuflush system, Dometic Sealand has great info on layouts and there system products are top notch (though sometimes expensive). http://www.sealandtechnology.com/prodsm.asp

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:55 am

If I understood you corrrectly, Dave, you suggested eliminating the direct-overboard discharge, and running all through the holding tank (for good reasons, I see that). Still, I wasn't fond of that system while out crusing for a couple of reasons (cruised on one boat with that set-up and one with both direct and through-the-tank).

One is that if you are going to be in a situation where you can pump overboard for a while (offshore, etc.), it's nice to pump some fresh, soapy water into the holding tank, let it slosh around for awhile, pump it out, and then not use it again until you have to. It just sits there, relatively clean and odor free, while you use the head and pump directly overboard.

Two is for when you are in a place where you feel you can pump urine overboard (but not solids). If you have the direct-discharge option, you can still use the toilet for liquids and then pump them overboard, even if there are solids in the holding tank. That way you don't have to pee in the sink ;-)

--- Rachel

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:09 pm

If you have a copy of the West Marine catalog from a few years back they had a design for a head pump out system that allows pumping overboard, pumping into the holding tank and pumping out the holding tank. It was more complicated Y-valve-wise, but it gave you all the control you would need. I'll take a look and see if I can find it for you.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:15 pm

Through the holding tank only systems are simpler and therefore less likely to begin to smell. The wye valve I have found to be one of the most likely places for seepage and therefore smell. Eliminating it completely makes short work of that potential failure. I really only recommend this on boats with 2 heads though. The wye valve creates several options and is a back up to a failed discharge pump. Therefore I really can't see not using one, even at the risk of having to remove, clean or buy a new one and replacing it on occasion.

Two is for when you are in a place where you feel you can pump urine overboard (but not solids).

I am not sure, but I doubt such a place exists. Most states designate areas as "no discharge". This means no nothing. Even urine contains bacteria. And if you are outside the 3 mile limit most states use just dump as you need to. Rhode Island is starting to enforce the requirement that your ability to discharge in any way all be locked out when in no discharge waters, which includes all of Narragansett Bay.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:38 pm

Last time we had the CG inspect our boat (in RI) they insisted we put a lock on the Y valve. TheY valve is upstream of the tank - I have no means to empty the tank contents overboard only pump out, the Y valve is to discharge the head directly overboard - I never use it so have to remember to work it now and again.

The lock for the old boat was easy, a SS pad eye and a hole in the handle of the through hull (not the actual Y valve ) through which a long shank padlock fits, kept them satisfied (same end results, prevents discharge overboard). On the new boat neither the Y valve or the thru hull lend themselves to a similar option so I may end up with a small length of chain or something, not sure yet.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:41 pm

Rachel wrote:]Two is for when you are in a place where you feel you can pump urine overboard (but not solids).

Hirilond? wrote: I am not sure, but I doubt such a place exists. Most states designate areas as "no discharge". This means no nothing.

From what I understand, George is planning to go cruising in the eastern Caribbean/Bahamas. When you get to these places there generally no pumpouts whatsoever, so it's up to each boat to manage their own waste. Everyone has to pump overboard, so you do what you can to minimize the impact; I think most of the time cruisers do a really good job of it. Having the option to treat urine and solids differently comes in really handy for that, so that's where my comments were coming from.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:28 am

Rachel wrote:When you get to these places there generally no pumpouts whatsoever, so it's up to each boat to manage their own waste.

Aha, I never considered outside the USA.

Personally I think the RI lock out requirement is getting silly. People who are going to discharge where they shouldn't are going to unlock to do it anyway. And those who respect no discharge zones will do so without locks. States can legislate system requirements; which gives the boaters the means to follow discharge laws, but they can't legislate morality regarding how one follows them, or doesn't.

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:51 am

Hi All,

Thanks for the notes. Rachel's right, this is for when I'm out of US waters or on a multi day passage beyond the 3 mile limit.

Based on what everybody's said I'm going with option that gives me the most choices; i.e. directly overboard or into holding tank and pump out station through deck fitting or electric pump out through seacock. I like Rachel's idea of filling the tank with bio soap and sloshing it around for a few days before pumping it overboard too.

I was able to find a "Y" valve that accepts a lock so I'm going to include that in this system. The shakedown cruise for the Bahamas trip includes Rhode Island so I might as well be legal.

I'm also using all "head" type plumbing fittings ( flared to make sure all the seals are air tight ). Should help to keep down the smells.

Thanks again Guys!

George

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:06 am

Do zipties count as "locks" in RI? They're generally accepted in CT, as compliance in the spirit of the regulation.
Of course any boat owner who wants to pump illegally will do so. The lock thing is more about providing enough of an obstacle to prevent an uninformed guest from pumping illegally.

or, so it was explained to me by a few "authorities".

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:43 am

George,

I have a system like the one you originally described but there are a few differences.

Instead of a mascerator, I installed a Whale Mark V hand pump for pumping out the tank. This is the same pump used by Lavac systems and it moves alot of stuff. I can pump 18 gallons in less than 2 mins. I like the fact that this uses no electricity despite the fact that I installed a Vaccuflush which needs electricity for every flush.... but thats another story.

I used a Jabsco Y-valve between the deck pump out and the overboard discharge. This Y-valve not only has a place for a lock, but the arms of the Y articulate to make installation easier.

I would recommend using 1.5" hose on the discharge. It will make this much simpler since everything else is set up for 1.5" hose (read: the good Sealand hose).

I do not have a vented loop on the pump-out line. If you read an article from Good Old Boat pumblished last February I think, someone did what you are trying to do, but they added a vented loop before the mascerator. Because of the vent, the pump was unable to generate enough vacuum, and he burned out 3 pumps before he figured out the problem. If you mount the pump and hose well above the waterline and just remember to close the seacock when you are done, you should be good to go.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:20 pm

Hey, I am glad to hear someone report good things about the Jabsco valve. I installed one myself but I have wondered about it a few times with its swiveling end fittings. I bought it purely for its lock out feature that will be beyond reproof (I hope) from the authorities.

Rachel, I wish you would stop writing about your peeing-in-the-sink experiences. It really leaves a disturbing picture in my head. I think we have talked about it but maybe you should mention to the wider audience that you don't condone peeing in the galley sink, only the head sink.

Two heads in one boat, now there is something to dream about!

-Britton

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:56 pm

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the notes. The current system is set up using all 1.5" hose and fittings. Electric macerator type pumps seem to all have 1.5" intakes but use 1" discharges. I may discharge it through the existing 1.5" seacock using a diverter valve and a ruducer bushing, or I may install a new 1" seacock, or I guess I could use the existing 1" bathroom sink drain with a couple of 1" ball valves to isolate the drain from the head during normal use. We will see what arrangement fits best under the bathroom vanity.

Thanks again all,

George

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:06 pm

She may have been witholding general broadcast of that information for a reason, Britton the Blabbermouth!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:33 pm

bcooke wrote: Rachel, I wish you would stop writing about your peeing-in-the-sink experiences. It really leaves a disturbing picture in my head. I think we have talked about it but maybe you should mention to the wider audience that you don't condone peeing in the galley sink, only the head sink.

Oops, sorry. Must remember delicate sensibilities.

Actually, Britton, you'll be comforted to know that I've never peed into either sink, galley or head. I'm not tall enough. I had to pee into a jug first and then....

Nevermind! (Cruising is nothing if not dignified ;-)

--- R.

PS Figment: Subtlety can just go right over some people's.... heads.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:03 pm

So many responses, not a one of them appropriate.

( The wide neck water bottles are definitely recyclable)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:42 am

I think it took Tim and Nathan a few days to figure out why I kept dumping out a red jug every morning. They never stuck around to see me dump the five gallon bucket. Now on the Outward Bound boats we used to ...

Rachel, you said pee in the sink. I just clarified which sink. I didn't spill the beans you did.

you did
you did
you did

:-P

All I really have to say about the thread topic is what happens when the electric pump fails? Manual pumps are easy to fix and spare parts are easy to obtain. Just my penny's worth.

-Britton

DPTrainor · Post by **DPTrainor** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:49 pm

I am re-doing my head setup and decided to go with one Y-value on output of tank with one side going up to deck discharge and other side through a Jabsco Diaphram waste pump leading to a vented loop and then overboard. The reason I choose a Diaphram pump (this one happens to be electric) was that it had a 1 1/2" output and unlike a macerator pump it can run dry for extended periods (not that you would want to on purpose). The tradeoff is I lose my ability to discharge directly overboard (without going into tank). I looked at a configuration where I could have best of all - discharge from toliet directly overboard -or- discharge from tank -or- discharge from deck. But, it required 3 Y-Valves total - and the compexity of remembering which way to switch each valve - lots of complexity and too many connections. It hurt my brain just drawing it on paper.

Dan

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:08 am

Dan:
You may have already seen this, but there is a K.I.S.S. holding tank idea on this forum post.
Hope this helps ease the head ache :-)

Post by **Tim** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:05 am

Given that virtually none of the possibilities for setting up a legal head system are particularly inviting, I think that the simplest approach is often the best. I have a complex system myself, and regret installing it that way. I'll do it more simply the next time.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:33 am

I looked at a configuration where I could have best of all - discharge from toliet directly overboard -or- discharge from tank -or- discharge from deck. But, it required 3 Y-Valves total - and the compexity of remembering which way to switch each valve - lots of complexity and too many connections. It hurt my brain just drawing it on paper.

My system does just what you are asking for with just 1 wye valve. I use a wye valve just after the toilet and vented loop to choose between tank and overboard. From the tank the outlet hose has a wye fitting to divert to deck pump out or to the discharge pump. If I go to the dock to pump out my discharge pump effectively blocks the suction from downstream of it and therefore the tank only gets the suction and hence is emptied. Downstream from my discharge pump the hose connects to the overboard hose after the wye valve with just a wye fitting. If I use the discharge pump I am in effect attempting to draw from the tank and deck fitting simultaneously. My deck fitting has a cap with an o-ring so only the tank can relieve suction. My discharge from the pump tries to exit through the overboard through hull and back to the wye valve and which ever way it is set. If the wye valve is set for tank then it is blocked from the discharge side. If it is set for overboard then it is trying to go against the joker valves in the toilet. Either way it can only go overboard. If relying on the toilet bothered me I could just make sure it was set to 'to tank' before using the discharge pump. I have seen 2 and 3 wye valve systems, but it works just fine with one.

Gravity discharge tanks are popular in Europe. The simplicity of them is very appealing. The down side is that the overboard discharge outlet is in the bottom of the tank. Should this connection or the fitting itself develop a leak the entire contents of you tank is now in the bilge. I use exclusively top mounted fittings from Dometic/Sealand. Should my system develop a leak then only the standing black water in the hoses in the immediate vicinity will leak out (and carefully planned layout has minimized that).

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:08 am

Dave, thanks. I tried to puzzle it out by making a diagram - does this look anything like what you are describing?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:44 pm

The only part you had that was off from my system was the discharge pump location. I modified your drawing and am reposting it. Keep in mind that a vented loop is suggested between the toilet and the through hull if the bowl is ever below the water line (consider heal while sailing) and/or between the tank and through hull if the tank is ever below the water line (also consider heal while sailing). It prevents your toilet or tank from siphoning water back through the system if the joker valve located in the toilet itself or the one(s) in the discharge pump ever fail.

This can be confusing to lay out in actual confines of your boat, so feel free to ask specific questions as they may occur. I hope this helps and good luck.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:35 pm

Hirilond? wrote:The only part you had that was off from my system was the discharge pump location.

Of course! Thanks, I knew I was getting confused about something, but it's all starting to "fit" now. Much appreciated.

Now I see what you mean about discharge pumping with the valve set to "Tank" - less reliance on the head's own valves.

I guess when you are operating the head straight to "Overboard", it's the head's own pump that sends it that way?

(p.s. I didn't draw the loops for simplicity, but that's a reminder worth noting)

EDIT: added diagrams - I only marked the Y junctions on the first one.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:43 am

Duncan wrote: I guess when you are operating the head straight to "Overboard", it's the head's own pump that sends it that way?

Yes, exactly. The only thing the discharge pump does is remove the black water from the tank for overboard discharge when you choose to do so.

I suggest it have its own breaker, sufficient gauge wire (see ABYC) as it is a larger gauge than you might think, and a switch near the tank for actual operation. Or use a manual pump, but I find these are quite prone to leaks or seepage. The amount of electricity you actually use considering the few times and short period really isn't a significant draw on even the smallest of battery banks.

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:41 am

Hi All,

I'll second Dave's statement about wire size and macerator pumps. I've finished the pump installation and wiring on my new head system and the 14 amp macerator pump needed #8 Anchor Marine wire to keep everything in spec. Like Dave suggested, the macerator pump is on its own circuit breaker and there is an additional pump switch mounted in the holding tank compartment. This way I energize the pump circuit only when I need to and can control the pump operation while looking directly at the holding tank.

George

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:54 am

Perhaps you guys are talking about pumping a far greater volume than I imagine, but I must say that my past experiences with macerator pumps have been far from pleasant, and I'd seriously consider a high-volume manual diaphragm pump (Henderson, Whale) over the complication and ongoing hassle of an electric macerator.

Elbow-grease over electrons!

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:22 pm

Hi Figment,

We'll get a chance to see how it works over the next couple of years. I expect it will only get used a few times during that period anyway. For me to have to use the system I have to be outside US waters, away from any pump out facilities but in a crowded anchorage or at a mooring ball in a harbor -- and then it gets used only after I've left the anchorage. Otherwise, I'll use a pumpout station, if available, or bypass the holding tank entirely and direct discharge.

The electric macerator pump is nice in that it is small and fits entirely within an unused section of the holding tank compartment. It also does not require any special mounting platforms capable of withstanding the torque of a long pump lever. In the tests I've done so far it works beautifully easily pumping out 20 gallons of seawater in two minutes -- all with the flick of a switch.

In the event of a macerator pump breakdown I can either buy a new pump or press one of the many other pumps on board the boat into service. The boat currently has the following:

1. Water pressure pump.
2. Shower sump pump.
3. DC powered Bilge pump.
4. AC powered Bilge pump.
5. Deck wash down pump.
6. Watermaker booster pump.
7. Cabin sole level high capacity Whale manual bilge pump.
8. Cockpit level high capacity Whale manual bilge pump.

I have lots of extra hose in various sizes as well as some pre-made adapter fittings on board that will make the above pumps work. I might keep a backup pump on board too -- the pumps are only $150. Or I can ignore the pump breakdown and switch over to direct discharge. The macerator pump system is only used in areas where direct discharge is allowable anyway.

I also have the capability to attach the deck wash down system to the holding tank deck fitting and reverse flush the holding tank if I want. This should allow me to make any repairs while there is only seawater in the system.

All in all, the system should give me good flexibility, should be easy to use, as well as give me lots of backup pump options if necessary. Once again, there is nothing like a two year field test. We will see how it all works.

Thanks for the note,

George

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:03 pm

Hi Again,

Something else just occured to me too. If necessary, I can backflush the holding tank with the deck washdown system and then attach the line the mascerator pump is on to the inlet of the manual pump on the head itself. This will allow me to pump the holding tank dry if I want. I can then reattach the hoses the way they were before.

I really don't think any of this will be necessary though. A brand new mascerator pump kept in an elevated and dry location that is used less than an hour over the course of two years isn't likely to fail.

George

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:58 am

George has one of those "fancy" boats!

hehe

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:21 pm

George ( C&C 40 ) wrote: 1. Water pressure pump.
2. Shower sump pump.
3. DC powered Bilge pump.
4. AC powered Bilge pump.
5. Deck wash down pump.
6. Watermaker booster pump.
7. Cabin sole level high capacity Whale manual bilge pump.
8. Cockpit level high capacity Whale manual bilge pump.

I hope 1 and 7 would not be switched back to regular service!

George ( C&C 40 ) · Post by **George ( C&C 40 )** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:53 pm

Hi Rick,

Good call on that one! No, after thinking about it for awhile, I think I would just backflush the holding tank with the deck wash and then use the manual pump on the head itself to pump the holding tank dry. Once again, I doubt it would ever be an issue.

It is going to be interesting though. For at least 6 of the next 16 months, "Delphinus" is going to be on the high seas. I spend a lot of time researching other cruisers websites and I'm trying very hard to expose every possible weakness in any of my boats many many systems. I've already replaced most of the wiring on the boat with brand new Anchor Marine boat cable, replaced all the water hose, replaced all the light fixtures and navigation lights, replaced or rebuilt all pumps and winches, replaced hoses, thermostats, and wiring on the engine, and the list goes on and on and on. I've also gone through and replaced every hose clamp on the boat -- with all the water sysetms on the boat that set me back about a weeks pay alone!

I've got another couple of months to prepare and test systems. Then the fun begins. Hopefully, if I've done a good job, I'll be able to avoid the curse of big boat owners. The curse being that you spend all your time maintaining systems and spend a lot less time enjoying being out on the water. We will see.

George

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:03 pm

I have a whale manual bilge pump mounted on a piece of plywood (portable manual bilge pump). You stand on the plwood, and pump. It works good, and doesn't take up much space. You could have something like this in your boat. Should the need arise, it is a spare bilge pump, orcan be plumbed into your holding tank system.