Sealing Deck Hardware, and Epoxy over Teak

[Columbia34]

Hi I am new to the forum and we just bought a 1970 Columbia 34Mk II. The boat overall is in great shape and just needs cosmetic work. We are repainting the deck and the topsides, and getting the boat ready for next winter.

No for my question I have removed all the deck hardware to make the deck painting easier. And When I go to install the new deck hardware I am wondering the best way to do it. I plan to over size the holes, use the bent nail to ream out the core, then refill with west system epoxy and 404 filler, then redrill the hardware holes. I read in the west system manual about actually epoxying all the deck hardware down. Sounds like a great method but am worried what if I need to remove the stantions or any other piece of hardware?

Next I am rebuilding 2 cockpit seats the the cockpit floor which are all teak with the black gaps. I am going to use the west system epoxy with the graphit powder to fill the gaps. We also have removed the toe rail and plan to refinish that as well. We have been reading about people epoxying over all surfaces of the wood to seal the wood in then take and varnish the epoxy to give it UV protection.

Are these good steps help guide me here a bit if I am off course. And I will post some pictures in the pictures section of our boat. Thanks in advance.

[Jason K]

Do not epoxy all the deck hardware down. Not only will you not be able to remove all of the hardware, you're setting yourself up for deck damage. One of the advantages for a traditial hardware sealant, like LifeSeal, is that it accomodates flex in the hardware, such as when someone leans against a lifeline and the stanchions are pulled. Any cracks that develop in the epoxy will be conduits for water and a failure of the epoxy will absolutely damage the deck.

As for the bent nail. If the core is dry, I don't see that working. The core should be too substantial to allow the nail to do much good. Appropriate over drilling should accomplish your goals well enough. I would recommend overdrilling at least twice the diameter of the hole you'll need for the hardware.

As far as epoxing wood goes, you may want to review this thread:
http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopi ... ight=#9223

[Ric in Richmond]

Jason,

You must have real strong core!!!

My balsa easily renders itself up to an allen wrench in a drill (fancy bent nail).

As long as you go back to a clean margin that you fill completely with epoxy ...so that when you drill thru all you see a pale white threads of epoxy spiralling up out of the hole....you are good to go.

That is one of my "to finish" projects. Whenever something gets moved or pulled I redo the core with epoxy. Still ought to finish it and get all of it done...[/i]

[The Good Goose]

We used west epoxy before we varnished on Good Goose. It was a time driven thing more than anything. I don't think the quality is quite as good but the moisture issues don't seem much different then varnish to me. If we get moisture problems we sand the spot to raw wood and varnish. Our combings were old and marginal and I think the epoxy mght have been benificial for them. I don't think it in any way reduces maintanence. We give everything two coats of varnish each year and strive for looks ok. If I was striving for Bristol I would want all Varnish and new wood.

Brock

[Capn_Tom]

The ole bent nail trick works on balsa and foam but not plywood. For plywood depending on this thickness of the core and the skinsI like a rabbeting bit in a router. As for the the bedding of hardware with West. Consider the source. I think I read in a West manual that it is good on toast.

[Tim]

We have been reading about people epoxying over all surfaces of the wood to seal the wood in then take and varnish the epoxy to give it UV protection.

I'm not a fan of epoxying wood before varnish, unless of course the epoxy is an integral part of a boat's construction (like a bright-finished strip plank boat or some such). As Brock indicated, in the end it rarely does much to reduce maintenance--and if (when) water gets behind the epoxy, which is virtually assured unless the sealing job is 100% perfect, one could have a real mess on their hands, having to deal with epoxy removal rather than just varnish removal.

Remember that every part of the wood must be well sealed to prevent water ingress--that might include portions that you cannot see, but that are open to the atmosphere nonetheless. It's bad enough having your varnish lift and fail, but imagine being faced with trying to somehow remove a partially failed epoxy coating.

I would stick with a traditional approach to varnish. Thin your first coat 50% with the appropriate solvent, which helps it soak into the wood, thin the second coat 25%, and remaining coats as needed. In the end, how long varnish lasts is pretty much entirely dependent on the initial application, as well as how vigilent you are about maintenance. Applying epoxy first just seems to me to be an extra, unnecessary step that will do little or nothing to actually helping the varnish last.

If the wood's in really poor shape, then all bets are off no matter what. Nothing truly saves old, junky wood. When no alternative exists but to reuse deteriorated wood, then there may be an argument for an epoxy treatment. But on wood in good condition I just can't see any benefit, and it might even make things worse.

I read in the west system manual about actually epoxying all the deck hardware down.

I've never understood the concept with this, and wouldn't do it. Oversized, epoxy-filled holes work well. I like to tap the fastener holes, which helps the fasteners hold better, makes installation a snap (one person can install bolts this way), and probably also helps seal the fastener holes better. I also like to mill a countersink at the top of the hole to provide an extra bed of sealant right where it's needed most.

For sealant, something like polysulfide works best. Don't use silicone or 5200, but any of the other products available will work fine.

The West manuals, as well as the recently-updated Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction book, are good resources, but it's helpful to remember that these texts are highly oriented towards actual wood construction (i.e. strip planking & cold molding), not fiberglass. Many of the techniques as far as use of epoxy are applicable to both construction techniques, but keep the focus of the books in mind when reading the advice.

I plan to over size the holes, use the bent nail to ream out the core...

With an unfinished deck like yours, I wouldn't play around with the bent nail. Why not use a Forstner (or other) bit of appropriate size to simply overbore the holes from the top, being careful to drill only through the top skin and core and not the bottom skin, and then fill these holes with thickened epoxy from the top? It'd be a cinch to fill them and sand them flush with the surrounding deck. When you repaint, all signs will disappear.

The bent nail is an OK technique when you want to enlarge the inside of hte hole without boring larger holes on the deck, such as with a finished deck. But when you have a raw product like you do, there are more efficient and more effective ways to produce those solid epoxy plugs around your fasteners,. and you can get a larger plug in this manner.

[Ceasar Choppy]

With an unfinished deck like yours, I wouldn't play around with the bent nail. Why not use a Forstner (or other) bit of appropriate size to simply overbore the holes from the top, being careful to drill only through the top skin and core and not the bottom skin, and then fill these holes with thickened epoxy from the top? It'd be a cinch to fill them and sand them flush with the surrounding deck. When you repaint, all signs will disappear.

The bent nail is an OK technique when you want to enlarge the inside of hte hole without boring larger holes on the deck, such as with a finished deck. But when you have a raw product like you do, there are more efficient and more effective ways to produce those solid epoxy plugs around your fasteners,. and you can get a larger plug in this manner.

I whole heartedly agree. the bent nail or allenwrench only works if your balsa is destroyed-- and then I think you'd have bigger deck problems to worry about.

A Forstner bit, or even an appropriately sized counter sink bit works well. To know what size, just make sure that your hardware will cover up the hole. I then usually use a dental pick set or something similar to evacuate a little more of the core around the holes.

Another technique is to be sure NOT TO OVERFILL the holes with epoxy. Fill them so that there is a slight depression to the hole. This takes some practice, but not only do you then avoid sanding the holes down, but this slight depression will hold more caulk around each bolt.

[keelbolts]

I have done a boatload of varnishing over the last 20 years and I'm not sold on Epoxy under varnish nor do I hate it. It gives the appearance of deeper varnish quicker, but I'm not convinced it lasts any longer. My mast was done with 7 coats of varnish over 4 coats of West epoxy. They make a special hardener for bright applications. Anywho, I'm not sure it lasted any longer. Now here's the good news. I strip with a heat gun and a ProPrep scraper. When you hit epoxy with the heatgun, the epoxy crystallizes and comes right off. Now what makes me cuss continuously is that polyurathane fake varnish garbage. With the possible exception of some of the high end 2-part clear finishes most of that poly garbage doesn't hold up longer, but it's a miserable, melted plastic mess to get off.

Also, as for the caulking under the hardware. When you put the goop under your hardware and screw it down, don't screw it down all the way. Let your boatlife, or whatever you're using, set up and then do to final tightening of your gear. Results in a sort of compression seal.

[Tim]

When you put the goop under your hardware and screw it down, don't screw it down all the way. Let your boatlife, or whatever you're using, set up and then do to final tightening of your gear.

When doing this, one must take care to not turn the bolt at all, however, as this might break the seal around the bolt itself, which of course would negate the whole process.

And if you tap the boltholes, as I do, the fasteners must be tightened all the way at once for the same reason.

[Columbia34]

Thanks for all the replys. I have a question though, so if I take and countersink the edges of the holes a bit and the use a zip tie as recomended to hold the hardware off the deck a bit, once the sealant dries and I tighten it down why does it matter if the bolt spins, isnt the reason for waiting to tighten the hardware to make a gasket like seal?

Scott

[CharlieJ]

if the bolt spins in already cured caulking, it will break that seal around the bolt. There won't be a continuous seal anymore. You want to leave the bolt sitting where the caulk cured on it and tighten the nuts agaist that. If you are forced to turn the bolt, as in with threaded places, then do it while the caulk is still totally fresh and uncured so it will flow around the threads.

[Tim]

...isnt the reason for waiting to tighten the hardware to make a gasket like seal?

Yes, in theory. But you still don't want to rely completely on this supposed gasket to seal the hardware and, more importantly, the bolt holes. The sealant in and around the fasteners is very important to ensure a watertight seal, so you don't want to do anything to compromise that.