The Triton cutter/slutter

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:33 pm

Since the general conversation has degenerated into laundry preferences I thought I would start another rambling topic for idle discussion.

Since we all know we share a common love for bowsprits, I drew up a quick picture justifying a bowsprit on a Triton and sent it back channels to Tim. It was a quick hack job and Tim quickly corrected some ideas while endorsing the concept so I thought I would open up the discussion to the forum. Anyone have some thoughts on rigging a Triton as a cutter/slutter?

I will first say the Triton is fine the way it is and doesn't need a new rig. I have no intention of doing this ... yet. But I like cutter rigs, we all like bowsprits, and hey, it beats talking about laundry (no offense Mike, I know you have a real problem there).

After reading Tim's response to my suggestion I agree that leaving the as-furnished 7/8 rigged headsail and adding a masthead head sail and bowsprit makes sense. Using enough bowsprit to keep the forestays parallel looks pretty good in my primitive drawings (also Tim's suggestion). Does anyone think a second or beefed up backstay would be required?

With the addition of a second headsail I would think a lot of the weather helm would dissapear. So if we were looking for excuses to mess with a perfectly good rig that might be it. Big jib out front and a smaller one on the inner stay. With both headsails on roller reefers adjusting the foresails for the conditions would be a breeze (cheap pun, I know). Besides the sexy good looks of a bowsprit, anchors could be hung from it and with some rope webbing, the toilet could be thrown out in favor of the traditional head facility (no paper needed - just wait for the bow to dip!)

I need to go sailing...

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:10 pm

I've given this conversion quite a bit of thought over the years. It hasn't happened because the "might as well" syndrome that it entails for me would quickly become overwhelming and a major project in itself. Still, I think it's a cool idea. I believe there might be other posts on this subject in the archives here...I'm pretty sure we've covered some of it in the past, in case anyone is interested in additional info beyond whatever this new thread handles.

Frankly, I think the possibility of storing anchors out on a good bowsprit/platform is almost enough reason alone to install one. In order to get the anchors a little more away from the bow, though, the platform/bowsprit needs to be relatively long. The longer it is, the more need for support at the end.

Enter the "extra" headstay (with resulting bobstay). The best way to do this conversion would be to rid the existing mast of the jumper stays and rerig to the masthead, but that would bet more complex, involve moving the spreaders upwards, and would lose one of the most important signature Triton features (the jumpers).

The extra headstay and headsail would work around the existing jumpers, but you would only be able to sheet the big outer sail in far enough to allow, say, a close reach. That's OK, since the outer sail would probably be used only in light airs and offwind anyway. My vision always included a large, relatively lightweight (but not spinnaker-light) headsail, perhaps as large as 200% LP, set on its own furler. The new headsail would be rather full cut, for best advantage as a close to broad reaching sail, when it is needed the most. With the smaller inner jib also set, I envision a very good slot effect for close reaching.

As soon as the wind exceeded the limits of the outer sail, it could be easily rolled up, and you could continue sailing with the inner, "original" fractional headsail, probably around a 110%.

With the existing rig, including fractional hounds and jumper stays, and the understanding that the new headsail was for winds under, say, 12 knots, I don't see any reason for additional support rigging. Removal of the jumpers would require some other changes to the rig to accommodate the change. There would be no need for runners at all.

If one really wanted to go nuts, a whole new rig could be engineered. I don't think that's ever going to happen. I think best appearance is had when the outer stay parallels the inner stay. Appearance is important, of course.

I have more or less shelved this idea for my Triton, but have hatched a related idea for my Seabreeze yawl, which I think could stand a taller rig. My plan for that new rig is similar, though the Seabreeze already has a masthead rig (hence the taller new rig). The new rig would include a second headstay run to a new bowsprit, and would retain the inner headstay in its original position at the stem and at the same height as the old masthead. This rig would allow for a large headsail for light airs and offwind work, plus the original, "it's worked for 40 years" size headsail on the inner stay.

What these ideas all come down to for me is that I'm sort of lazy, and I want easily-deployable (and dousable) additional sail area for light airs and offwind. The additional headstay idea with dedicated sail takes care of these needs.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:48 pm

Yep, I checked and Mike brought up the subject about a year ago.

That thread was started from a picture of Soubrette. You guys called it a "scutter" and I agree that it sounds better and all further references by me will be in that name.

Funny thing about that picture though is that the bowsprit just doesn't look right to me. Something is wrong but I can't figure it out. Maybe something with the railing... I also like the sprit to be a little longer but then the stays would not be parallel so I guess short and stubby it has to be. Maybe it is the picture too but the sails don't set the way I envision them in my mind either. Probably because they have to clear the jumpers or maybe it is just the angle of the photo.

A 200% headsail, yeah, that is what I am thinking. Just the thing for those 5kt days. If you pulled it in above 10kts though then you wouldn't really be gaining anything over the weather helm would you? You would still be looking at reefing at 15kts.

Mind you I am talking about sailing a boat I have never been on before so I am probably sounding pretty ignorant here. I know I would take my dumpy (sorry ComPac I really do love you) 20 footer up to about 20kts before reefing. I was on a ocean racer last year and the wind was picking up and I asked the skipper when he started reefing. His answer was "oh, about fifty knots". He was serious. I think he was stupid (in a good way) but serious.

Anyway, an interesting idea for that "someday" plan when I have nothing left to do.

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:46 pm

Come on now guys. Have you learned nothing from Tim's day sailor project? When one starts out with a Triton, one can turn it into almost anything!

While we are adding the bowsprint, why not go all the way and change the rig to a schooner and be really salty?

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:53 am

The Soubrette conversion is one of those "almost right" things. It's also the reason I never moved forward on the project myself, since I saw all the "wrong" (to my eye at least, and apparently Britton's too) aspects of the way the new bowsprit was handled. I think most of the appearance problem is the pulpit, which is not a good fit. I think if the platform were a bit wider, it might allow for a better pulpit. It's really the aft end of the pulpit that fails here; it's like it was designed by committee, and the two factions (forward and aft) didn't talk to each other.

I feel the pulpit integration with the sprit and flowing cleanly into the boat is one of the more important visual features; the prospect of this new pulpit, and its anticipated cost, is the main stumbling block on the road for my own conversion.

I think all there are other elements on the boat conspiring to reduce the overall appearance too. It's a cumulative effect. I'm not a fan of those wooden port frames, nor of the deletion of the small ports in the lower part of the cabin trunk. These elements really change the way the boat looks.

All this being said, I still think the overall rig conversion looks successful, and there's no question that large headsail would be outstanding to have on hand. For someone seriously looking to increase sail area and improve anchor handling, I think this conversion has real potential. Just don't buy a brand-new and expensive custom bow pulpit till you make the decision on the new rig.

Interestingly enough, the "other" Triton daysailor conversion out in the great lakes features a similar scutter rig conversion to that on Soubrette. I might still have some pictures of this other boat on an old hard drive.

For posterity, here are the pictures of Soubrette and her "scutter" rig. (I hate the term "slutter"...for obvious reasons. It's so unlady like and unbefitting a graceful sailboat.)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:17 am

Come to think of it, when I think bowsprits I don't include a pulpit in the picture. I think that is why it looks funny to me. Who needs a pulpit on a bowsprit anyway? I don't know what you call them but the horizontal cables to each side would provide the security to go out on the point if you really wanted to. I don't know why you would have to be there except maybe to repair the furler (take cool pictures and dip your feet maybe but those are very optional activities) Standing on the bobstay inside of those side cables would be secure enough unless you were in hard weather and then I would consider sacrificing the sail preferable to going out there. Some netting would do the trick too and would only add to that salty look. Or is this vision over-engineered. Maybe a Triton is too small to have this much saltiness.

In Soubrette's case I think a round sprit rather than the one she sports would look nicer. That one looks like a board tacked out there rather than a spar.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:44 am

I believe that the horizontal wires would be "sprit stays".

I certainly think it's possible to overdo the saltiness on a triton. The hull has a touch of elegance to its design, and this can easily become cluttered.

A round spar section would certainly be more of a sprit than a pulpit, but the anchoring would be rather clunky, as these generally sit above the deck, pinned to the stem and a (true) samson post. One would need to add bulwarks to the toerails to raise the sheer and reduce that "she's carrying a cannon" look. Might as well... might as well...

I think a better compromise might be to start with a plank-style jobbie back on deck (and take it farther back, 2/3 of the way to the coach house) and then taper and sculpt it so that it becomes a square-section sprit out on the business end. The anchor deployment point would be the place to make this transition, probably.

Walking out on the spritstays sounds painful, quite frankly. This is generally done on much larger vessels where the stays are of a much larger diameter and offer more to stand on.

It's mockup time.

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:30 am

I don't know why you would have to be there except maybe to repair the furler (take cool pictures and dip your feet maybe but those are very optional activities)

Well there is one other very triditional activity for this area from which we derive the term "head" ;-)

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:25 pm

The Triton may be classic in appearance, but she's not a character machine. Therefore, any additions should be in keeping with her relatively utilitarian, not overly-ornate, nature. I think a square-edged, flat sprit could be made to look much better than the one in question, which lacks much in the way of elegance or vision, but as others have said, the round version doesn't really fit either.

Save the round ones and netting for traditional boats, like the BCC and schooners and other character boats. More modern designs, even if classic in appearance, require something else.

It's possible that a truly useful boswprit with big sail on a Triton might start to require sprit stays for lateral support. It depends on the length.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:45 pm

With regards to the bow sprit, I have always felt that if the hoisted sail is going to be used in light airs upwind to a close reach because of the jumpers, and off wind in a low wind range of conditions why make it a stayed saiL The roller and all that sail will sit out there in all conditions I would be watching that luff edge nervously if the wind got above 25. I feel that anchoring with a bobstay is a nightmare. either you have to create a load bearing anchor roller point at the tip of the bowsprit, or one has to use some method to keep the rode from chafing the bobstay as the boat sails about her anchor. Having the anchor roller at the most forward point and on something that can take high loads is very nice. The idea that I have been thinking of is to set a plank style sprit out from the bow about 3 feet. I would have the pulpit still in its traditional location the sprit would extend past it. I would have a block for the sail tack on the upper side of the end and a bob stay on a simple purchase. When I get under whay I would place tension on the bobstay and go sailing. If I hoisted either a assym spin for run and broad reach , I can do so from the cockpit just like on the skiffs (ha). I plan to cut down an old genoa and remove the hanks I will set this on a beam or close reach on a pennant so it sets a bit above the jib. all these sails are set flying . I have no idea how far up I will be able to point and not surffer from headstay sag, but in that situation a genoa lead sloop would be best. I will attach the roller and bruce anchor to the port side of the sprit. When I come into anchor and loosen the tension on the bob stay. It gets pulled up by some shock cord and the anchor rode roams free. I want to do this to offset any weather helm I may get from when I add the missen mast and its associated sails. I go back and forth from this and a jib boom, because my slip fee is based on over all length.

robert
whisper
#163 WC triton
Oakland

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:50 pm

I certainly think it's possible to overdo the saltiness on a triton. The hull has a touch of elegance to its design, and this can easily become cluttered.

The Triton may be classic in appearance, but she's not a character machine. Therefore, any additions should be in keeping with her relatively utilitarian, not overly-ornate, nature

I feel that anchoring with a bobstay is a nightmare.

All good points. Probably the best choice would be to leave the boat well enough alone. Better men than I have designed the boat and it seems to work pretty good to their design.

Walking out on the spritstays sounds painful

Totally right. I keep imagining boats in my family that I sailed on which were old clunky wooden work type boats. This isn't a great picture but my family doesn't understand the internet and this was put up by someone else. My cousin owns this Spray replica .

A lot more thought needs to go into this.

It's mockup time.

Actually it is time to get away from this computer and start working on my boat.

-Britton