Cost of classic plastic

[JonnyBoats]

Is it just me, or does it seem to others like the availibility of classic plastic sailboats in at least OK shape and extremely reasonable prices is increasing?

For example today on eBay a Bristol 29 (without an engine) sold for $1,325.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 06598&rd=1).

Another recient sale on eBay was an Alberg 30 with a Yanmar 2GM diesel, auto-pilot, wind vane and (2) New Lewmar # 30 self-tailing 2 speed winches which went for $6,000.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 60673&rd=1).

Finally there was a Tartan 27 with engine problems for $2,550.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... otohosting).

Of corse I did not actually see any of these boats personally.

[Rachel]

I drooled over that Alberg 30, let me tell you. I think in that case, the main reason it went so cheap was that it's in San Diego. It actually sold for $6500 on the first auction - not sure what happened - then was relisted and went for $6000 the second time.

I seriously considered bidding, but at my budget point, that would have meant moving to San Diego... Great weather, but not much for interesting sailing destinations, and you're not allowed to anchor spontaneously in the harbor.

In the case of the Bristol, that one had bids in the $5000s with the engine included but on a pallet, but at that time the seller's reserve was higher than that. He listed it several times but apparently always hoped for more that was bid, then it seems he donated it to Boatangel.

Hmmm, I'm rambling. Not sure how I feel about what you said vis-a-vis availability of cheap classic plastic in good shape.

Actually, I think I'd say there's a lot available that looks to be in good shape, but in actuality needs a lot of work - expensive work if you hire it out, labor-intensive if you do it yourself. I think most of these boats are not in very good shape -- under their thin veneer of respectability; and the ones that are command a higher price.

Of course that's not to say that many of them couldn't be sailed as is, if you're the sort of person who can ignore certain problems or not let them bother you (too bad I'm not one of those people; would have saved me gutting a couple of houses, too ;-).

--- Rachel

[JonnyBoats]

Actually, I think I'd say there's a lot available that looks to be in good shape, but in actuality needs a lot of work

Well I guess I need to define what I mean by OK shape. To my way of thinking, and engine is not essential to the enjoyment of a sailboat. If one can live on it and sail it safely, then it meets my criteria of OK shape.

By the same token, one can find an OK sailboat that could use a lot of work, like a paint job for example. A full Allgrip job to the standards that Tim had for his Daysailor is neither fast nor cheap. Then again to say that one of Tim's boats was in OK shape would be the understatment of the year! The point is a boat will still float and sail without new paint.

[Rachel]

I was thinking more along the lines of saturated deck core, rot in chainplate-bearing bulkheads, that sort of thing. Borderline structural/functional stuff (of course we know all the hulls are "overbuilt" ;-)

A bad paint job and "original" sails are practically a given, in my price range, but I don't consider them huge problems - like you say, that's more a matter of optional cosmetics.

Perhaps people are just getting more savvy about how big a deal things like soft decks are (and more of the older boats decks are getting that way, too), so that's why the project/borderline project boats are coming down in price. I wonder how much the Internet has to do with that -- it's so much easier to get information and share it with others.

Also, there are lots of newer boats available (which appeal to many folks).

Interesting concept to think about, at any rate. I still think a lot (most?) of the Triton-vintage boats out there for "reasonable" prices need more work than first meets the eye to be "safe" to sail, but of course that's pretty darned subjective!

--- Rachel

[Rachel]

I guess I'm in a writing mood tonight. I just followed the link to that Tartan that sold on e-Bay and recognized it as a boat I looked at in Baltimore last fall.

Of course it had potential, but I'd say "fair" was an accurate description of the overall condition. Needed lots of external woodwork for starters. I actually didn't bother to go below (it was on the hard and I couldn't find a ladder nearby) because I could already see I wasn't interested (he was asking ... I forget exactly, but somewhere in the $5000 - $7000 range).

That being said, I'm not as fond of the later T-27s, so that influenced me also.

Anway, funny to see that boat pop up in the link after I'd looked at it.

--- Rachel

PS I do think that A-30 in San Diego was a sweet deal. If only I had a boat mover in the family...

[Tim]

There are certainly plenty of decent boats available for reasonable prices. Whether or not they represent a good deal is highly personal and depends on what the true story is. Most boats are far over-represented in their advertisements, and end up being worse than expected.

I might be picky, but I've seen plenty of $30,000 sailboats that I wouldn't pay 10K for, as they are in need of full upgrading, some structural repairs, and lots of cosmetic work.

Conversely, there are few true bargains, either. Even paying only $1000 for a boat is no guarantee of overall savings. It costs a lot of money to rehab an old boat--but again, this always depends on one's own standards and desire for a certain end result.

But jumping into a low-cost boat with the thought that you can be sailing for next to no money only works if one has no standards for safety or quality. Almost all of these "bargain" boats will require significant structural repairs, normally deck recores or bulkhead replacement and the like. Most will need new standing rigging, and will have substandard wiring, plumbing, and engines in questionable condition. All of these things can be patched together on a wing and a prayer, I suppose, but only if the buyer is the type who is happy with that sort of thing. Obviously, I am not a fan of this sort of thing.

Nothing is more important than being honest up front about your own expectations for the boat in the end. It doesn't make sense to fool yourself into thinking you don't care about something like cosmetics, or engine, or what have you, when in reality you do. Obviously, paint means nothing to the overall usability of the boat...but it does if you hate the way the boat looks. A boat must bring enjoyment first.

Engines may not be required, but let's face it: they are extremely convenient, at least, and are a part of most of our sailing lives. Cruising isn't like it was when the Roths, Hiscocks, and Pardeys first headed out, and while I am not saying one cannot cruise successfuly without an engine, the reality is that for virtually all people, an engine in excellent working order is required for happy and comfortable cruising. (Daysailing is something else entirely.)

Project boats are great, and will get you a superior custom boat in the end if you have the time, money, and inclination to rebuild the boat as required. But one should never expect a low-priced project boat to be instantly ready for the big plans while saving lots of money, either. And nothing is worse than being stuck ashore working on a project boat when what you really wanted to do was go sailing.

Projects are a way of life, and also a means to an end...but the commitment in time and money can be substantial. In the end, you end up with more than you could almost any other way, but it's not necessarily a short or inexpensive ride along the way.

[JonnyBoats]

Nothing is more important than being honest up front about your own expectations for the boat in the end.

That is a statment I totally agree with. Unfortunately it is not always easy to know what one wants or needs untill one actually gains substantial experience in sailboats, at which point one's wants and needs often change dramatically.

For example I have known lots of men who grew up sailing and loved it and had a wife (or girlfriend) who liked the idea of getting a boat, but who had never been sailing. Once she found out what it was like, they lost interest and either the boat or the relationship was abandoned. I am guite sure the reverse is also true (women who love to sail with guys who don't), I do not want to be sexest here.

Getting back on point, I think I need to better define terms. The term I used wa an "OK boat", not good or great. It's sort of like an old, high milage car with lots of dings and rust but which gets you back and forth to work reliably, what we in Maine would call a "beater". If it does the job reliably, it is OK.

I might be picky, but I've seen plenty of $30,000 sailboats that I wouldn't pay 10K for

Actually there are a lot of brand new sailboats which would not meet my definition of OK as they could not be expected to reliably take you on an extended passage as delivered by the manufacturer.

Next I believe it is important to distinguish between the "boat" itself and what I would call "systems". By systems I mean things like engines, wiring, plumbing, refriguration, air conditioning, watermakers, heaters, etc. By OK boat I am referring to hull and rigging, the basics.

Another important consideration is "equipment", things like anchors, safety gear (flares, EPIRBs, liferafts etc), charts, etc. Needless to say this can easly add thousands to the cost of going sailing, but this is usually stuff that one can take from an old boat to a new boat and thus is not part of the boat itself.

The primary thought I had in my original post is that if one wants to sail boat, as opposed to having a floating condo, one needs an OK boat but does not need many (if any) systems. Along the lines of what Herreshoff advocated in his book "The Compleat Cruiser".

Almost all of these "bargain" boats will require significant structural repairs, normally deck recores or bulkhead replacement and the like. Most will need new standing rigging, and will have substandard wiring, plumbing, and engines in questionable condition.

Ia boat needs substantial structural repars, it is not an OK boat by my definition, e.g. it is not safe to put to sea. As for standing and running rigging, this is probably true, but also not a killer expense on an older boat of 30 feet or less. Of corse the other items listed meet my definition of "systems".