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I am trying to work out the details on the all new plumbing system in my Triton. The orginal Triton doesn't boast of much of a plumbing system but what there was went to the dumpster a couple of years ago so I am starting with a totally clean slate.

I had a few thoughts that someone here might be able to comment on.

Tank venting: I am thinking that the vents need to be above the level of the deck fill otherwise the first indication that my tanks are full during the filling operation will be water gushing out the vents all over my new interior. The original tank vented near the top of the anchor locker (interior) would a vent to the exterior be a better option? How about an external vent outlet on the cabin side? Or I could be clever and have the vent outlet(s) dump into the galley sink where the overflow won't bother anything. Then I wonder about shut-offs on the vent lines. If the boat were to get into conditions that involved a lot of rocking and rolling the vents could start spewing if the boat heeled beyond say 45 degrees (in the case of the V-berth tank anyway). It would be pretty depressing to survive a roll-over only to learn that while the boat was upside down the entire contents of the water tanks flowed out the vent lines and I will now die a slow and painful death by dehydration.

Fill lines: I suppose each tank should have a shut-off on the fill line so I can manage which tank I want filled (for ballast or suspicious water quality issues) or maybe just a Y-valve to direct the flow to the desired tank. The shut-offs in each tank would have the advantage of being able to fill both tanks simultaneously without going below to switch things over though.

Outlets: I suppose these should each have a shut-off to keep the two tanks isolated in case one was contaminated. Plus, just like the filling issue, I may want to control which tank I empty first.

Drains: I suppose a drain valve tee-ed off the outlet line of each tank would be nice for emptying the tanks at the end of the season. Or can I just use the galley foot pump for this?

What do you people think?

-Britton

Hey!

20 views and no comments?! Are you people fed up with my non-sensical comments and now refuse to converse with me?

You mean to tell me that no one here has installed a new plumbing system or has thoughts on how it should be set up?

Am I really that much of a trend-setter?

Maybe I have finally surpassed the abilities and talents of the forum...

Or maybe no one knows. That would explain why the books on marine plumbing are startlingly mute when it comes to the details.

Fine. I will take my graduate level questions off this kindergarden forum :-P

-Britton

Oh, and Nathan, you are leading me by 61.

Britton, you need to get out more!

bcooke wrote:Tank venting: I am thinking that the vents need to be above the level of the deck fill otherwise the first indication that my tanks are full during the filling operation will be water gushing out the vents all over my new interior. The original tank vented near the top of the anchor locker (interior) would a vent to the exterior be a better option? How about an external vent outlet on the cabin side? Or I could be clever and have the vent outlet(s) dump into the galley sink where the overflow won't bother anything.

I'd just vent it to the exterior and not worry about it any more than that.

bcooke wrote:Then I wonder about shut-offs on the vent lines. If the boat were to get into conditions that involved a lot of rocking and rolling the vents could start spewing if the boat heeled beyond say 45 degrees (in the case of the V-berth tank anyway).

How much off-shore sailing are you planning to do? If it's really extensive, I guess it wouldn't hurt to put a valve there, but what's, really, the likelyhood of that happening. At least, of losing enough water that way to worry about?

bcooke wrote:It would be pretty depressing to survive a roll-over only to learn that while the boat was upside down the entire contents of the water tanks flowed out the vent lines and I will now die a slow and painful death by dehydration.

If you are going around the world, won't you have a watermaker in your ditch kit? Other than that, I would hope you would choose your weather window a little better!

bcooke wrote:Fill lines: I suppose each tank should have a shut-off on the fill line so I can manage which tank I want filled (for ballast or suspicious water quality issues) or maybe just a Y-valve to direct the flow to the desired tank. The shut-offs in each tank would have the advantage of being able to fill both tanks simultaneously without going below to switch things over though.

I think shut off valves would be a nice addition for the reasons you mention.

bcooke wrote:Outlets: I suppose these should each have a shut-off to keep the two tanks isolated in case one was contaminated. Plus, just like the filling issue, I may want to control which tank I empty first.

I think this is more important/valuable than shut-offs on the fills. Having the option for both would be nice, though.

bcooke wrote:Drains: I suppose a drain valve tee-ed off the outlet line of each tank would be nice for emptying the tanks at the end of the season. Or can I just use the galley foot pump for this?

How many gallons do you have? You could use the foot pump, but it takes a surprisingly long time to pump even the full stock v-berth water tank on a Triton. Since you are starting with an empty boat, I'd definitely add a provision for draining the tanks.

You are absolutely right. I am just heading out the door for the boat yard. At least my boat still talks to me.

bcooke wrote:Tank venting: I am thinking that the vents need to be above the level of the deck fill otherwise the first indication that my tanks are full during the filling operation will be water gushing out the vents all over my new interior. The original tank vented near the top of the anchor locker (interior) would a vent to the exterior be a better option? How about an external vent outlet on the cabin side? Or I could be clever and have the vent outlet(s) dump into the galley sink where the overflow won't bother anything. Then I wonder about shut-offs on the vent lines. If the boat were to get into conditions that involved a lot of rocking and rolling the vents could start spewing if the boat heeled beyond say 45 degrees (in the case of the V-berth tank anyway). It would be pretty depressing to survive a roll-over only to learn that while the boat was upside down the entire contents of the water tanks flowed out the vent lines and I will now die a slow and painful death by dehydration.

Your tanks won't operate properly if the vents are closed. Vents are rarely located in convenient places, so if you have a shutoff, what are the chances it would ever be used? Even if the shutoffs were located right at the tank outlet, it's probably not that convenient to access. So in a theoretical offshore situation where you were concerned about this possibility, you'd have to open and close the vent valves each time you wanted to draw water. I suppose it's do-able if you wanted. Certainly there's no reason NOT to install the valves just for fun, even if they stay open forever, so for the cost of a few 1/4-turn valves and hose clamps, you could be fully prepared for anything.

Perhaps you need a full valve manifold, located somewhere convenient, to which you can run these myriad shutoff and control valves. It'd be especially cool if you added indicator lights, machines that go ping, and other geeky stuff. Perhaps you can dedicate one side of your cabin to this control area, maybe with a Recaro seat for you to relax in while dictating the flow of your tankage.

In any event, if this theoretical rollover lasts long enough to cause the entire contents of your tanks to drain through the 5/8" vent line, you have far bigger problems. Rollovers are either momentary, or permanent, and this is a function of boat design. The Triton, thanks to its narrow design would, at worst, have an extremely momentary rollover--and this isn't going to happen anyway. If you were going offshore in an Open 60, then the permanancy of a rollover would be a true concern, since those boats are actually very stable upside down, it turns out. Fortunately, Tritons are about the polar opposite of Open 60s!

Far more likely, even in more "normal" sailing conditions, is partial contamination by salt water--something you see mentioned again and again in one offshore tome after another. Keeping the fresh water supply fresh seems to be uncommonly difficult for many of these adventurers, and this aspect of it might bear consideration for offshore work. For coastal sailing, it's a non-issue that would cause inconvenience only, not life-threatening. Therefore, the tank vent fittings are best located somewhere that they will not be submerged during normal sailing, to prevent the possibility of salt water or spray entering. Plumbing into the sink is an interesting idea, but requires a pretty long hose run. Other than ensuring that the vent line was clear and free, I can't see any real issues with venting into the sink.

bcooke wrote:Fill lines: I suppose each tank should have a shut-off on the fill line so I can manage which tank I want filled (for ballast or suspicious water quality issues) or maybe just a Y-valve to direct the flow to the desired tank. The shut-offs in each tank would have the advantage of being able to fill both tanks simultaneously without going below to switch things over though.

So you're having one deck fill to service both tanks, I gather? If so, then some sort of control manifold is critical. It should be conveniently located. The other option is to install a decicated fill line and deck fitting for each tank--six of one, half -dozen of the other.

bcooke wrote:Outlets: I suppose these should each have a shut-off to keep the two tanks isolated in case one was contaminated. Plus, just like the filling issue, I may want to control which tank I empty first.

Yes. Multiple tanks make the most sense when each can be operated entirely independently of the other.

bcooke wrote:Drains: I suppose a drain valve tee-ed off the outlet line of each tank would be nice for emptying the tanks at the end of the season. Or can I just use the galley foot pump for this?

Definitely install a drain. I teed a drain into the outlet of my stock tank, and even though the flow is slow, it sure makes draining and flushing the tank easier. This is especially handy when you want to flush out the antifreeze from winter; I leave the drain open and allow fresh water to flow through the tank for some time to flush out all that nasty antifreeze.

It's also a nice easy way to flush your bilge and bilge pump with fresh water.

bcooke wrote:20 views and no comments?! Are you people fed up with my non-sensical comments and now refuse to converse with me?

Listen, now, Mr. Impatience: the quality replies to which you seem to have become accustomed don't happen instantly. Some of us have a few things going on right now, so pardon the slowness. Sheesh. ;<)

Hey in all seriousness, Tim, master of the lengthy and helpful reply, will be suffering with intermittant internet access for the next few weeks. I'll try to pick up the slack where I can, but patience really will be the order of the day for a while!

Britton, I know you were just joking.

At least, I think I know you were just joking! hehe

Of course I also know you were joking, Britton! (I hope that was clear...)

B,

OK so I have no advice, but really Monsieur Britton, when you were posting all your thoughts it was still dark here! I read somewhere that the water tanks in wrecked boats often float for days after the boat has broken up and sank. Do your tanks have handles welded on them for this eventuality? I my self would find it hard to surf to shore if I couldn't hold on. perhaps skegs as well should be added.

2(He + he)=HAHA!

still waking up,

r

B

whoops misread your post. You did post it last night. dhoop! that is an attempt to duplicate the homer simpson sound. Is there an established spelling for that?

R

I'm one of the ones who viewed and didn't comment. But I'm here now ;-)

I've never designed a system from scratch, but I can throw in a couple of comments based on usage of non-electric water systems on two boats.
Since the systems weren't exactly the same, it was natural for me to compare them and think about things I did/didn't like with each one. What I *can't* comment on, was how "wise and proper" the installations were, from an ABYC-type perspective.

Okay, boat #1:

I loved the overflow plumbed to the galley sink. Even with two of us aboard, being at the fuel dock was a hectic time, and it was great to just "let it fill" until I heard water pouring into the galley sink (into a container, of course, for future use!). This boat had two deck fills, port and starboard (tanks under the settees), but also a valve that you could open to connect the two, so we would usually fill from one side only (whichever was more convenient at the time). Filling from jerries was easy, too.

I have a feeling this might not have been good design (?? the crossover valve), but, once I knew the water was not contaminated, it did have another handy use. When one tank ran dry (they were both 35 gallons), I would open the valve and let them level out (so each would have 17 gallons or so), then close the valve and go on until one tank ran dry again, do the same, etc. It was an easy way to keep track of water and always get a "half gone!" warning.

Boat #2:

The P.O. was really a "keep it simple" type, and so decided that the thanks (two 35 gallon tanks in the bilge under the saloon sole) shouldn't even HAVE deck fills. What a nightmare! If at a fuel dock you first have to get *your* hose out of some deeply buried location (unless you want their grungy, hideous hose running through your living room), then get the sole up (real handy to have no *floor* while everyone is running around busy at a fuel dock) and put the hose in the tank, run back up to the water valve on the dock, run back down (don't fall into the bilge or trip over the hose!) to make sure you're not flooding the cabin, etc.

Then if you really want to get the tanks full, you have to have a second person at the water shut off on the dock, and try to bellow out "Stop!" at just the right time. Ugh. It's also hard to completely fill tanks that are fairly wide at the top (2' or so) and don't have a fill neck - there's so much water in that last half-inch or so of tank "height," but it's hard to get it full without going over (the rigid plastic tanks just had screw-on tops on a very short stub)

As if that's not bad enough, you're oftentimes jerry jugging the water out to the boat, if you're out cruising. How fun it is to lug sandy, heavy, 6 gallon jerries down the companionway ladder. Not! For that, I devised a system of siphoning from the jugs so as to avoid bringing them below, but what a pain!

As far as venting goes, both boats had interior vents run up into the wet-locker, which meant that their tops were about chest-height - must have been 2' - 3' above the standing water line. Neither of them ever leaked, even though we were certainly heeled plenty. We didn't experiece a true knockdown, but I know that the skipper of boat #1 did so so on his Atlantic Crossing, in a big storm. He didn't mention the tank vents as a problem, although as Tim said, the little bit that would leak out would probably not be worth mentioning.

One thing I woudn't have been without in the water "system" was a good pesticide sprayer permanently mounted near the cockpit. That thing was used for so many tasks: Shower, salty-feet rinser, "pressure" washer, dish pre-scrubber, you-name-it.

Another consideration - if you're going to be out for awhile at some point - is what I call "deck water." By that I mean water that you will use on deck for showers, laundry, etc. Since I was on a slightly bigger boat than a Triton (30' w/ 10' beam), I carried two 6-gallon hard jerry jugs on deck for this, and they, (along with two 5-gallon collapsible camping jugs) were used to haul water to fill the tanks as well. If you weren't going to be able to (or didn't want to) haul jerries on deck, I suppose it might be nice to have some kind of automatic pump to get water from your tanks to deck level -- we only had foot pumps, which I loved, but we didn't usually have to get water from the tanks for deck-level things.

One other nice thing about the two collapsible jugs was that if you started with them full, as well, you had a little "free" water to use for the inevitable last-minute tasks before weighing anchor, and you could still feel like you were starting out completely topped up, tank- and hard-jerry-wise.

As far as pumps go, we had a Whale Gusher Mark III foot pump in the galley, and a Baby Whale foot pump in the head. While the Gusher is a fine pump, it does pump on both strokes, so if you're not really careful it's easy to "waste" water on the up-stroke. For that reason I might be tempted to use a Baby Whale as a galley pump on a boat with a more limited water supply. I'm not sure about that, but it's something I'd think about.

One last think I'll mention is sink plumbing (as long as I'm digressing already anyway :-). On boat #1 we had a direct sink drain, which was nice. The sink was medium deep, too.

On boat #2 (with the keep-it-simple PO) there were only three sea-cocks (one for engine intake and two for the head), so the sink drained by manual bilge pump to a through-hull above the waterline. I disliked this system at first, although I started to like it more after I realized I could then put in a 9" deep sink, with no worries about whether or not it was below the waterline. Now *that* was nice. I still did not like how soapy water would stay in there as you rinsed (unless you pumped constantly), but that was partially solved by a more lengthy, larger diameter plumbing run (came along with the new sink), and could have been made even better with a small "sump" tank. Still not sure which way I would go on that in the future.

Here's a photo that shows some of the details: The small hanging/wet-locker (on the left as you look at the photo, just under the mesh hammock) has the vent lines routed inside it up to nearly the top of the locker. You can see the deep sink over to the right against the aft bulkhead. One other thing I liked was that we routed the "faucet" so that it came out through the "wall," and was therefore one less thing to clean around (or have water gather around) on the counter. The manual pump to empty the sink (older version of Whale Urchin) is in the locker with the blue-and-red door, just to the right of the faucet. Having a door on it was a pain, btw, as it would flop around and liked to slam on one's wrist. Looked nice though :-)



I know it looks a bit "un-tidy" but it's the "We're at sea; who ransacked the boat?!" look ;-)

My scattered thoughts, for what they are worth,

--- Rachel

PS on the opposite end of the subject, I just read where Peggie Hall (head expert) is now recommending Trident's new 101/102 sanitation hose. Apparently it's double-walled, with a biocide in between somehow. Slightly thicker and bulkier, but apparently easier to bend to make up for it.

Nothing like a good temper tantrum to get the adults to pay attention :-) I will have to employ the technique more frequently.

Perhaps you need a full valve manifold, located somewhere convenient, to which you can run these myriad shutoff and control valves. It'd be especially cool if you added indicator lights...

Okay, so I am over-engineering this again.

I will try to compress everyone's ideas by topic.

Vents shut-off valves: I am getting silly. Plus, I can always add a shutoff to the end of the vent (or a plug) if I decide I need it later. I was just looking at the V-berth tank and how wide it was and thinking that with the boat well heeled over the outside corners of the tank get pretty close to the height of the vent. I might leave the option for valves without doing it right now.

Vent locations: Because of the salt water contamination issue I would like to keep the vents inside. I thought my galley sink idea was an original idea but I guess not. I too thought that I could just fill until I heard water flowing into the sink. I think though a better plan is just to keep the deck fitting lower than the vents so the water would back up that way. The V-berth tank would be especially difficult to vent aft because of the long run and the fact that the tank is nearly at the level of the sink but the bilge tank is well suited for that.

Deck fill: They are a must have. I never considered running a dirty hose below. I was thinking one fitting up forward on the starboard side with control valves to direct the flow. I totally missed the idea of having two deck fills with no valves. That seems like a much simpler and idiot proof system to me. (that idea alone was worth the tantrum.)

Tank drains: Okay, done deal. It will happen.

Thanks for the "real world" ideas Rachel. I haven't even begun to seriously design the galley area (which includes the sink). I debate between the shallow sink versus deep sink with pump concepts. I like the simplicity of a shallow sink but on a Triton it is a very shallow sink. I thought I could raise the counter a bit but I don't think that will help much and I lose a lot in the compromise. I will worry about it next year when the galley rebuilding is scheduled. I will check out that new sanitation hose too. THAT I might be installing in the next month or so.

Robert, I think I have seen it spelled as "Doh!" although that spelling doesn't acurrately describe the pronunciation. I know what you mean. I also realize I might have been a "bit" hasty with my tantrum. I have become very used to leaving a question in the evening and getting at least one reply by 6:00 the next morning. Some people might call that spoiled :-) I decided not to put handles on the tanks because 1.) they are quite heavy and I am not at all sure they would float. 2.) they are going to be built into the structure in such a way as to require removal by cutting out the bottom of the hull and dropping the tanks down from there. These tanks have a very long life expectancy and I don't expect to ever see them outside of the boat again. Optimistic maybe but I think confident is a better term.

Nathan, Ditch kit?! I am going down with this baby. Current tankage is 55 gallons with room for maybe ten gallons of water jugs over the V-berth tanks.

I got the mounts sorted out for the waste tank today. I learned about a new disadvantage to SS tanks. When a heavy tank with sharp pointy ends is held against a slack sided hull while juggling a couple of custom fit blocks underneath the results can be quite painful. I lost count of how many times the tank slid down and jabbed my foot or pivoted and pinched my hand against the bulkhead. It was a painful day with much colorful language. The pain is quickly forgotten however when I my last glance into the V-berth shows a shiny tank resting comfortably, and with assured stability, in its proper place.

Thanks all.

-Britton

P.S. Everyone can rest easy and always assume that I am just kidding. I leave seriousness for the adults.

bcooke wrote:my last glance into the V-berth shows a shiny tank resting comfortably, and with assured stability, in its proper place.

Yet, alas, not a picture to be found...

Yet, alas, not a picture to be found...

Perish the thought.

You know it occured to me that a role reversal has taken place. Several years ago I lived cyber-vicariously through Tim's Glissando project. Now, Tim is off building houses and he wants to see more pictures of my boat projects...

Okay, the 26 gallon bilge water tank in position. It is hard to see from this picture but I have a minimum of 1/2 inch clearance on the sides, about 2 inches on the top, and the bottom is resting on a 1" thick pad so any water will flow under the tank rather than having the tank sitting in salt water. If the bilge fills up much more than about 3 inches then the tank will get wet of course. No way around that without creating a water tight box around the tank. All the tanks are made up with some pretty thick (oversized really) SS so I have been assured that the boat will rot away before the tanks do. I wonder if they are wrong whether I can claim a refund? That bilge tank must weigh 30-40 pounds. I about gave myself a hernia getting it up the ladder and into the boat.

<edit> I just noticed that the wide angle lense on the camera is distorting the image. In reality the top of the tank is parallel to the cabin sole, not sloping as it looks in the photo. <end edit>

And the view once the sole is down.

Looking forward.

The 16 gallon holding tank.

The 29 gallon V-berth water tank.

After several ideas and one bad episode trying to get a big tank mockup out of a small bulkhead entrance I just had the welders copy the original fiberglass tank. I never realized that the rear end sloped forward. I was annoyed at first but then I realized that the end of the outlet fitting is square with the top of the tank so making access to the outlet fitting just got easy.


-Britton

That's some mighty fine tankage.

I hate you.

:)

Snail mail me a blank check and I will drive up an identical set for #668 in a couple of weeks.

Hmm, are you going to rip out and rebuild my interior for me as well, so that they can actually get installed?

You've got about 6-8 weeks.

How about I do the first part and you do the second. Split 50/50. Seems fair to me.

-Britton

Fine looking tanks, Britton.

Tanks for the photos. (ow)

bcooke wrote:How about I do the first part and you do the second. Split 50/50. Seems fair to me.

So, then are you going to pack and move my house?

I have a better idea. Just rip apart the interior and leave it that way for the summer. Should take you a couple of hours. If you have any trouble let me know as I have become quite good at it. The V-berth tank is big enough for Gavin to sleep on and you have two perfectly usable saloon berths for you and the misses. The cabin sole can be replaced with a sheet of plywood that takes about an hour to cut out (and a million years to fine tune to the far-from-symmetrical hull shape). From the pictures you can see my interim sole. It is actually stable enough without anything securing it in that I just leave it in all the time now and walk on it. The bilge tank is sturdy enough for an elephant to rest upon.

Time's a wastin'

-Britton

P.S. When it gets warm enough for the epoxy to kick off I will update the installation process. I just can't go any further without epoxy. While I could setup tents and heat lamps I think my time is more productively spent on other projects. Of which there is no shortage. The next person to donate money to my cause will be pleased to learn that I will be putting the funds towards some Bomar hatches in the cockpit and poop deck.

-Britton

bcooke wrote:I have a better idea. Just rip apart the interior and leave it that way for the summer. Should take you a couple of hours.

I see where this is going. And I don't like it one bit!

bcooke wrote:Time's a wastin'

OK, Tim! ;-P

Britton,

You may have said already, but where is the vent going to be located on the holding tank? What is the diameter of the vent fitting/fittings?. Mine have dual 3/4" vent fittings. I need to figure out where the best location would be for these.

What kind of capacity is you holding tank?

Looks like you are making great progress.

Joe

Well, Joe, not as much progress as I would like. I am stuck waiting for some epoxy cure temperatures before I can glass in the tank beds. After that I can get on with the rest of the tank installation.

As for the vent fittings, my fittings are too big. The welder was out of 3/4" tubing and could either order some material in or just use 7/8" tubing instead. I opted for the larger 7/8" because I was getting impatient.

The 'head', when I bought the boat was a porta-potti with pump out and vent plumbing. The vent hose was run up the forward corner of the head 'room' between the main bulkhead and the paneling that made the head locker which then went to a fitting through the cabin side just forward of the opening port. I will probably use the same location or perhaps run the hose up the aft side of the opening port (might help keep the smells from blowing back in) or if I find a really small mushroom vent I might put it on the cabin top itself.

The 16 gallon holding tank has inlet, outlet and vent fittings on the aft side of the tank that pass through holes in the bulkhead so everything that might smell will be in the head area and not the V-berth area. Whether that really helps I am not sure but at least I tried.

-Britton

machines that go ping,

John Cleese in Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life."

bcooke wrote:(might help keep the smells from blowing back in)... everything that might smell...

Someone was asking about holding tank vents elsewhere and I googled this up on the weekend:
http://boatbuilding.com/article.php/Mar ... vsFolklore

I haven't studied your plan here in detail, but it looks like you are at a stage where planning for more/better ventilation could really pay off? I'm thinking particularly of adding cross-ventilation and/or a fan. Fresh air is said to be the key to odor control, since it promotes the aerobic (non-stinking) bacteria over the anaerobic stinkers.

(I'm surprised we don't hear more about solar vents/12v fans for holding tanks. We used to have treatment ponds for potato starch at a processing plant, and the only time they ever began to smell was when the aerators broke down)

Interesting article Duncan. Unfortunately I have passed the point where I could have incorporated some of the ideas.

In light of the article I might have considered a second vent line to force more air through the holding tank.

The article also warns against a metal holding tank. I am not going to trash my tank at this point. I think their estimate of SS tank failure in 3-5 years a bit exagerated but I will let you know in 3-5 years. It might be worth looking into a chemical coating for the interior tank now however, before I semi-permanently install the tank.

In my case, I don't expect to use the holding tank all that much. I usually head for more remote locations where direct overboard discharge is the norm if not the law. After reading about the corrossive effects of human waste I might flush my tanks more aggressively in the future.

As usual, one doesn't become an expert until a few mistakes have been made first. Thanks for the link.

-Britton

bcooke wrote: As usual, one doesn't become an expert until a few mistakes have been made first.

man, am I ever an EXPERT!!!!

bcooke wrote:As usual, one doesn't become an expert until a few mistakes have been made first.

This is why one might eventually seek an additional boat project or two--to take the experience (and mistakes) from the last time and improve upon them.

Of course, this is a never-ending proposition, as one will never eliminate all mistakes, or room for improvement! But it's fun.