Hackmatack substitutions

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:14 am

Poor wooden boats get no appreciation around here... Here is a question to keep this thread index alive.

I have a banks dory, built around the turn of the century (1900 not 2000) that in a naive attempt to repair quickly lead to a complete disassembly. I would like to put it back together and I would like to keep some of the original features. While I am not thinking in terms of a true restoration I am interested in keeping the 'patina' of the original construction.

One of the intersting features of this boat is that the frames were built of one piece matching knees of Hackmatack (I think larch is the same thing). The 'L' shaped frames were cut out of the root stock with the grain naturally turning 90 degrees at the corners. I think this was common 'way back when' but it almost totally unheard of now which is why I would like to preserve these worn out frames.

My question is this: I have to splice in some wood to replace sections of rot. Do I need to search around for Hackamatack (I haven't seen any in the local lumber store) or is there a compatible wood that I could insert into the construction that would shrink and swell at similar rates?

Any thoughts?

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:43 pm

Flip through the back pages of a WoodenBoat magazine. There are a few specialty-lumber guys advertised there that do knees from crooks. Send them a pattern of the knee, they send you a hunk of lumber with the appropriate grain. If nothing else, they should be able to point you to a source for actual hackmatack.

(By the way, rope is spliced. Wood is scarphed.)

Post by **Tim** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:36 pm

Either that, or buy yourself a nice woodlot and harvest your own!

Grown knees are understandably hard to come by, but as Mike said, you may find an appropriate supplier. I don't know for sure, but I'd anticipate a pretty hefty charge!

Brian C. · Post by **Brian C.** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:48 pm

You might try these folks. I do not know much about them but I know a guy on Cape Cod who says they are a good source of wood for him.

http://www.deepwaterventures.com/

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:12 pm

Okay, scarfed not spliced. :-)

...

Well now, I started to explain my usage of splice which led to a perusal of the dictionary. The first definition of "Splice" is to connect two pieces of rope by intertwining their threads. The second definition is"to join a material (rope/wood/other) in an overlapping fashion. To "Scarf" is "to join two ends of a material like wood". Really though, I am not joining two ends. I want to remove a section that is rotted and replace it with a filler piece. All right, I will be honest, I also want to scarf in new end sections on a couple of the frame ends but I also want to cut out a section and replace it.

What I really want to accomplish is to keep as much of the original wood as possible. This boat was assembled with what looks like a big hammer and a hatchet. I want to keep those hatchet marks for posterity. Anyone can have a smooth shiny bottom but very few of us own boats built with just an axe.

I had thought about new knees but if I go the route of replacing the bad frames then I might just as well replace them with two piece frames scarfed together and then splice a plywood gusset over the joint the way modern dories are usually built (unless you want to go the metal clip route which I don't)

I am not looking for the most practical method. This is playtime for me. I want to see what can be done with the original materials.

I was hoping someone would tell me that spruce (or whatever) will exhibit similar shrinkage so I can scarf/splice/whatever in without worry.

Thanks for the list of suppliers though. If they sell knees they might sell the straight stock I am looking for too. I only need about 5 board feet though.

Tim, do you have any hackmatack on your property?... I do want my own woodlot. I just have to figure out how to spend money without my boat finding out...

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:58 pm

bcooke wrote:Tim, do you have any hackmatack on your property?

As a matter of fact, I do have some larch on the property. There may be others, but I happen to have a photo of this one.

bcooke wrote:I just have to figure out how to spend money without my boat finding out...

Boats are very understanding of other expenditures when it is made plain to them that the other expenses are, ultimately, for the boat's overall benefit.

It goes something like this:

money spent on land => boat stored at home => boatowner can gaze adoringly at boat at all times => boatowner dreams up myriad ways to customize boat => more love and affection (and therefore expense) lavished on boat => boat is very happy

bcooke wrote:This boat was assembled with what looks like a big hammer and a hatchet.

Sounds like it's right up your alley.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:04 pm

Have you browsed the woodenboat.com forums?

Keep out of the bilge....nasty sort down there :)

Ric

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:28 pm

Tim
I may be wrong but I think that is a grey birch. As I understand it Larch hackmatack and Tamarack are all the same tree. They are easy to spot this time of year as they are a conifer that turns yellow and drops their needles. Right now they are very golden yellow. I think if you were to call up some smaller sawmills, Britton ,you could probably get some cut for you. there is quite alot of it in maine in fact I talked to a guy at the Newport wooden boat show from Maine who was selling knees. I think it also grows in Mass.

If your property is forested get a copy of Forest trees of Maine puplished by the Maine forest service. It is a great little book that helps in tree identification as it narrows down the list to just trees in Maine.

Brock

Matt B. · Post by **Matt B.** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:18 am

Tim wrote: As a matter of fact, I do have some larch on the property. There may be others, but I happen to have a photo of this one.

Hmmm... "How To Identify Trees From Quite a Long Ways Away - The Larch".

Oh, come on, I can't be the only Monty Python fan around here...

Post by **Tim** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:27 am

The Good Goose wrote:Tim
I may be wrong but I think that is a grey birch. As I understand it Larch hackmatack and Tamarack are all the same tree. They are easy to spot this time of year as they are a conifer that turns yellow and drops their needles. Right now they are very golden yellow.
Brock

That picture is from last February, and the tree is indeed a larch. Of course it's a little hard to tell, given the distance of the tree in the photo, and all the needles have been dropped for the winter.

Here's another picture, this one from June. I scoured my photos, but cannot find a recent photo of this tree. At the moment, however, it is yellow/golden brown, and in the process of dropping its needles. I'll try to remember to photograph the tree next time I'm up there.

It's not a fine specimen, but at this point I have no plans to remove it, either. So I suppose all this conversation is moot!

There may be others on the property; I honestly don't know, but this is the only one I have specifically noticed. We have about 30 acres of forest, mostly white pine and small deciduous trees. (It's a relatively young forest, as all this land was once farmland.) There's much exploring left to do, but hunting season is not the time to start prowling the woods!

Matt B wrote:Hmmm... "How To Identify Trees From Quite a Long Ways Away - The Larch".

Oh, come on, I can't be the only Monty Python fan around here...

hehe...I thought of mentioning something along those lines, but thought it might be too obscure. Plus, I couldn't remember exactly the reference, but I'm glad someone else can appreciate what I was thinking to myself as I posted the info before! hehe

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:49 am

Tim
sorry about that I thought the arrow was pointing to the tree in the forground. I had just figured out the monty python reference this morning. I was getting ready to point out your lack of a reference number. " Number 7 The Larch" or something like that.

Brock

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:22 pm

Thanks for the tip Brock. As it is I ran into an old boat builder this morning that thinks he has some out back in his woodpile. He also though I could substitute with fir with no ill effects.

There may be others on the property; I honestly don't know, but this is the only one I have specifically noticed.

Hmmm... so if you woke up one morning and saw a stump where the arrow is pointing you might suspect something...

On another note Tim, is your entire life experience catalogued in photographs? You always seem to have a photo of whatever the topic of the day is.

I had thought of visiting the WoodenBoat forum but I thought I would go where my eccentricities are already understood and accounted for. Getting through the newbie faze at a new forum can be a rough and uncomfortable experience.

-Britton

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:38 pm

I had thought of visiting the WoodenBoat forum but I thought I would go where my eccentricities are already understood and accounted for. Getting through the newbie faze at a new forum can be a rough and uncomfortable experience.

If it would help, I'd be happy to vouch for your aberrance.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:45 pm

bcooke wrote:On another note Tim, is your entire life experience catalogued in photographs? You always seem to have a photo of whatever the topic of the day is.

You sound surprised.

bcooke wrote:...I thought I would go where my eccentricities are already understood and accounted for...

...or at least cheerfully tolerated!

hehe

heartofgold · Post by **heartofgold** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Tim wrote:Oh, come on, I can't be the only Monty Python fan around here...

Yes, you can.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:34 pm

Tim wrote:
Oh, come on, I can't be the only Monty Python fan around here...

Yes, you can.

It's people like you what cause unrest.

heartofgold · Post by **heartofgold** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:37 pm

218 wrote:It's people like you what cause unrest.

No, it's not.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:15 am

heartofgold wrote:
Tim wrote:Oh, come on, I can't be the only Monty Python fan around here...
Yes, you can.

Note that I didn't write the phrase above that is being attributed to me. It was posted by Matt B.

It's a simple mistake, and easily forgivable, but please be sure to quote accurately! It applies as much here as in the media. Thanks!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:45 am

money spent on land => boat stored at home => boatowner can gaze adoringly at boat at all times => boatowner dreams up myriad ways to customize boat => more love and affection (and therefore expense) lavished on boat => boat is very happy

Now I know why you are so popular with the ladies.

If it would help, I'd be happy to vouch for your aberrance.

Gee, Thanks Jason... I think... :-)

...or at least cheerfully tolerated!

As long as it is cheerful :-p