Windlass

[JonnyBoats]

For our LeComte Northeast 38 I found a Sampson-Lawerence Seatiger manual windlass. In this photo the mounting base is missing (see below). A nice touch is that it came with nylon bushings for the mounting bolts so that the stainless bolts do not come into direct contact with the aluminum housing of the windlass.



It was brand new, still in the box (new old stock). I feel lucky to have it as I don't think they make them any more.

This is being mounted on the foredeck over the V-berth as far aft as possible. Here is a photo of the V-berth:



There is 300 feet of 3/8 inch BBB chain in this photo. I plan to divide this locker in half and all the chain should easily fit on the starbard side under the chain gypsey. Since this much chain weighs _alot_ (450 lbs), I wanted it as close to the center of the boat as possible rather than in the forepeak.

Here is a photo of the hole in the deck through wich the chain pipe will pass:



This hole is 2.5 inches in diameter and I have a piece of surpluss stainless steel pipe which will pass through here. The foredeck has a foam core and as you can see I removed the core around the hole using a motor tool. This photo is looking up, and you can see that the bottom layer of fiberglass is thicker than the top. The total thickness of the deck at this point is 1 inch. The plan is to fill the void where the foam core was with epoxy to prevent water from getting into the core.

Here is a photo of a 1 inch thick plastic base I made for the windlass:



This is a piece of plastic from the surpluss yard. I'm not shure what it is; it seems to be similar to the plastic they make cutting boards from. The 4 smal holes are for the 5/8 inch mounting bolts while the big hole is for the chain to pass through.

Finally here is a photo of the backing plates:



Also visible is the hole for the chain pipe which is not yet mounted. As you can see, the underside of the deck is irregular and rough at this point, so the backing plates are not making full contact.

At this point everything is in place for a dry fit. I have not yet mixed up any epoxy, which I _think_ is the next step. What I do not know is how much should be perminant and how much removable. For example, should I epoxy the plastic mounting base to the deck? What about the backing plates?

Since there are substantial loads envolved here, I assume I want a non-compressible filler between the backing plates and the deck to most effectively spread the load. Does this mean mixing thick epoxy with a high density filler such as 404 and putting this between the plates and the deck to in effect "cast" a smooth surface for the plates to bear against? Should I wax the plates first so that they may be removed, or should the be made a perminat part of the deck?

Since this is my first time using epoxy, and advise will be appreciated.

As an aside, I went out the other day and purchased the "starter kit" the Tim recommended in another thread. Using the B size (about 1 gallon of resin) and a few "extras" like syringes and sticks to mix the stuff the bill came to just under $200.

[Tim]

You might have trouble getting anything (such as sealant) to stick very well to the plastic backing plate above decks. Also, is that plastic UV resistant?

If you want to ensure that your SS backing plates belowdecks have full contact, then I'd mix up some non-sagging epoxy using the cabosil you bought and press the plates carefully into place till the epoxy cures. To prevent the plates from sticking, you can cover them with something as simple as black vinyl electrical tape, or wax paper, or car wax, or some combination thereof. If you hold the plates temporarily in place with your bolts, wax the bolts to protect them. Tighten till you get epoxy squeezeout on all sides of both pieces, then clean up the excess so that it will look nice when you're done.

I wouldn't permanently mount the backing plates with epoxy, but creating a perfect surface for them to bear against isn't a bad idea at all, if not strictly required.

[Chris Campbell]

Another thing to think about is the fact that the deck you're mounting it on is foam cored. Where the LeComte factory knew there was going to be hardware mounted, they put in plywood core for compression strength - as you've noticed, that isn't the case in your mounting location. Only testing it will tell, but it might be worth it to make up a mounting plate like you've got on deck for the underdeck as well, and put your backing plates below it. That way you've made a much stronger sandwich. It would be a shame to compress the deck with that aft backing plate on a particularly big tug. Probably doesn't need to be as thick as your deck plate, but something to spread the load a bit further wouldn't go astray, methinks...

[Figment]

The core may be foam, but you certainly appear to have a stout top and bottom skin!

I think the usual "overbore, fill with epoxy, and redrill" at the bolt holes could be adequate to prevent crushing of the core.

[Hirilondë]

Chain can stack up in a cone that defies physics as you winch in. Keep this in mind as you lay out your winch location and the storage for the chain. Just because you can fit all the chain in its allocated spot doesn't mean it will fall into it as you wish when hauling up your anchor.

[JonnyBoats]

I have now created mounting pads on the underside of the foredeck for the backing plates. I mixed up West System epoxy with 404 high density filler and put it on the waxed backing plates to form the pads. The foam core was cut back around all the overdrilled holes and the holes have now been filled with epoxy and re-drilled to size. I have also mounted the chain pipe in its hole.

Now I am ready to mount the windlass. What I am wondering is what to put between the plastic mounting pad and the top of the foredeck. The choices I am considering are:
1) Nothing (the bolts go through the pad and will hold it down.
2) 3M 4200
3) 3M 101
4) 3M 4000

Also would it be a good idea to route a grove around the underside of the pad neer the edge to fill with whatever sealer I use?

Finally should I put sealer over the underside of the entire pad or simply put a line around the edge and around the holes?

[Rachel]

I would think that the plastic pad might cause you problems (as Tim mentioned) in a few areas:

1) Is it UV resistant?

2) Plastics like Starboard and the like are susceptible to "creep," wherein they deform under load.

3) Caulk and epoxy are not too excited about sticking to plastics of that sort.

If it were me I would want to be sure that the job would last, and so I would probably use something else. Perhaps pre-fabricated frp (fiberglass) board.

Rachel

[JonnyBoats]

I would think that the plastic pad might cause you problems

I must confess that when I bought it I never even thought about the UV resistance part. Since it is from a junk yard, I do not know exactly what type of plastic it is.

On the other hand I have already made it, and if it does not hold up I can always make a new one out of FRP or whatever. Should I really scrap it at this point?

[Tim]

Ask yourself this: do you really want to worry about the prospect of doing this all over again in a short period of time? Junkyard finds are all well and good if they truly fit the need at hand. I'd suggest a fiberglass base plate would be far more effective here in all ways--stronger, denser, millable, and able to take all sealants properly. It's a windlass, which will be under significant and dynamic loads throughout its life. You want the installation to be as good as it can be.

To answer your general questions:

1. Some plastics may be adversely affected by polysulfide caulk (3M 101). Some are not, but when in doubt, don't use polysulfide.

2. I know nothing about 3M 4000 and can't even figure out what its makeup is. (Does anyone know what this stuff actually is?)

3. I'd choose 4200 here. It's a strong sealant that is non-permanent, but is also compatible with plastics and other materials. I am becoming a big fan of 4200.

4. A groove around the perimeter of the underside of the pad is a good idea for a little extra sealant buildup. But either way, goop up the entire bottom of the pad, and extra heavily around the boltholes. I suggest milling a chamfer in the deck surface at each bolthole to provide a nice little reservoir for extra sealant right at the fastener, where you need it most.

Don't be shy with the sealant. You need to see substantial squeezeout in all areas to ensure a positive seal. It seems wasteful to have to clean up and throw away that sealant, but deck leaks are really annoying...and harmful.

[Ceasar Choppy]

2. I know nothing about 3M 4000 and can't even figure out what its makeup is. (Does anyone know what this stuff actually is?)

I've used a lot of 4000... it is actually called 4000UV. It is like 4200 (read: removable with some umph), but the main difference is that it stays white for a lot longer and doesn't break down and get chalky in the sunlight-- at least not as fast as 4200.

I've used it for mounting deck hardware, including starboard mounting pads, with no ill effects. It is more compatible with plastics than 101 or other poly sulfides and it cleans up easy until it is cured.

I don't think you should have too much trouble with a plastic pad under the windlass. I've seen many professionally mounted that way-- although more importantly, if its deforming under load, you've got bigger problems that need to be addressed. There shouldn't be that much load on a windlass.

This is assuming of course that the plastic in question is something like PE or Starboard.

[Figment]

yeah, but what IS it that enables it to stay white and UV resistant? I wouldn't be alarmed to hear that the S-word is involved somehow.

[Tim]

So, what exactly IS in 3M 4000UV? Even the 3M website refuses to say.

A high quality cosmetic sealant cures to form a firm, rubbery, water-tight seal. Superior UV resistance. Very low odor. Remains flexible.

It sounds a lot like Life Seal to me--something that contains a bit of the dreaded silicone.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I looked into that when I first started using it and I couldn't find it in the ingredients and 3M tech guys said no. That was 6+ years ago. It certainly doesn't have the look or feel of the Lifeseal stuff. I'd be really cheesed off to find it had silicone in it.

[Hirilondë]

I use teak for windlass base plates and either stainless or fiberglass board for backing plates. A hand plane with a slight convex shape to the iron works great to account for deck crown. I use either Sikaflex 291 or SIS 440
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/online/l ... /Ns/P_Sort
especially if over a teak deck.