Osprey Awlgrip Project

[osprey171]

Hello all,
well, after reading everyone elses projects I figured it was time to join and post my own. So we were recently hauled our 66' Alberg 30 "Osprey" and one of the big projects to take care of was the teak toerail... well that quickly changed from toerail rebedding to toerail replacement. So after ripping the toerail off we figured to go all out and repaint the topsides at the same time.


As you can see the old finish was not in the best shape, aside from the orange peel there are numerous drips, scrapes and scuffs throughout. The brightside definitely does not seem to be to durable. That picture actually isnt that bad..trust me its much worse..


Sanding Begins :(

So where we stand now, today finished sanding the topsides which took about 14hours total. You can see to the left of the pic the tan is the gel coat, the white is some old paint over the gel coat..Overall the gel coat seems to be in good shape, some spots where there is some cracking but not to many.

Now, do I need to remove all the white you see there so it is all gelcoat? As of today all the topsides look like the left side of the transom there. running my hands down the hull she seems to be fair for the most part cracks and a few low spots aside..suggestions?

I'll keep everyone posted..Thanks!

Trevor
S/V Osprey
A-30 #171

[Hirilondë]

Now, do I need to remove all the white you see there so it is all gelcoat?

It depends on what is over the gelcoat and the condition of it. If it is an oil based paint or some 1-part polyurethane I would say yes it should be removed. If it is any paint that is not sandable to flat and fair then regardless of what it is it should go. If it is a known 2-part paint that is well cured, can be sanded smooth and fair and is adhering very well then there is no real need to remove it.

[osprey171]

Thanks Dave...The white is sandable to flat and fair, although I have a hunch it is an old single part of some type. With that said, it can't hurt to take it off. Whats a few more hours with the sander anyway..

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Hirilondë]

Trevor, I am in Jamestown and travel to Stonington and Mystic everyday.

Where in Stonnington do you go daily? Hirilond? lives in Stonnington at my place of employment.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Tim]

Now, do I need to remove all the white you see there so it is all gelcoat?

I think there's no question that you should remove all old paint right down to gelcoat. I don't see any reason to even mess around with compatibility tests; an old boat like yours should just be stripped down, since it's highly likely that any old paint you find will be incompatible with the solvents in linear polyurethane paint. Plus, older layers of paint rarely make an acceptable substrate for a high quality, high-gloss paint job. Once you get grinding, it's better to just take it all off.

I just gotta get one of the boats on this forum in gel.

I'd still like to see that step-by-step of the process.

[rshowarth]

Tim wrote:

Tynaje wrote:
I just gotta get one of the boats on this forum in gel.

I'd still like to see that step-by-step of the process.

I would also like to see and read about the process. I looked at the Hawkeye Industries site.

My sister has suggested she may want to change the color of her Rhodes 19 hull. Rather than paint, I would like to consider a new gelcoating in a different color.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[osprey171]

Trevor, I am in Jamestown and travel to Stonington and Mystic everyday.
I would like to take a look at your boat and talk you into driving to Stonington AND Mystic to look at two boats.

I would love to see the boats. Although we are super busy right now trying to get everything put back together and Osprey back in the water ASAP. The gelcoat sound good to, woudnt mind seeing a demonstration at some point.

I think there's no question that you should remove all old paint right down to gelcoat.

Good call. Just out of curiosity I did the test in the awlgrip app guide, got to step 2 and the paint was pretty much turned into some sort of slime..Today, we got the rest of the hull sanded and are ready to fill the imperfections hopefully mid week she will be ready for primer. I will have some more pictures then, can't wait for that first coat of primer, im sure even then she will look a lot better..

[rshowarth]

Tynaje wrote:

.(The small capaity gun I use will soon make sense.)

What make/size gun do you use?

[Hirilondë]

I saw you were from Charlestown, would that place of work be Dodson's?

Yes, I am a carpenter there. http://www.dodsonboatyard.com/

I did my restoration of Hirilond? and keep her during sailing and off-season at Dodson.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[dasein668]

I love the way curves look with that shiny paint! Nice.

Sprayed the nonskid yesterday afternoon between e-mailing Tim to bend his ear about my dream boat :) (not a power boat)

Wouldn't that be "bending his eye"?

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Rachel]

I missed this whole thread somehow until today (the trouble with reading during my lunch break). Osprey, I'd love to hear/see more about your toe-rail project, in addition to the paint.

Rachel

[DELETED]

DELETED

[rshowarth]

Tynaje wrote:

Sprayed the nonskid yesterday afternoon

I am a neophyte so please excuse me if I ask a lot of questions.

Is the non-skid gel coat too? If so, what did you add to the gel coat to create a non skid surface? And how did you do it?

What material do you use for fairing a hull before you re gelcoat?

Did I read somewhere you use polyester resin and not epoxy?

What do you sand the hull with (both material and tool) before and after fairing?


I am sure I have more questions, but I will try to ask only a few at a time.....

Perhaps you should create a separate Topic to discuss and explain your gelcoating.

Trevor-

I am looking forward to more pictures of your project.

[osprey171]

Osprey, This is a 6 year old Awlcraft 2000 paint job, very dirty and not yet cleaned for the season. It has a depth of shine you wont get in Polyester Awlgrip "classic", plus its much much much more user friendly

wow! that is quite the shine. I do like that symbolic reach. I have heard good things about the Awlcraft 2000. I was actually at Jamestown Distributors today and the person helping me had just sprayed his motorcycle with Awlcraft and a wagner from home depot ( I have no idea what he was thinking with the wagner) and it looked amazing... I would love to do Awlcraft 2000, but from today we have 4 weeks at the most to be one the hard (have to be in maine early june). Along with the painting, we are instialling a new toerail all new stainging rigging, new chainplates, seacocks the list goes on...unfortunately...Lots to do little time.

If we had more time and the equipment, I would love to learn to spray and im sure we would go that route...Wouldn't we also need to have some sort of enclosure??

This project actually started as a rebed the leaky toerail project. After removing the rubrail (under which the hull had not been painted) we were faced with very soft wet teak, I could in some spots actually grab crush it by hand. And no, im not abnormally strong..So the toerail obviously had to be replaced, we then ripped off the old teak one. This is where everyone is going to hate me...we are replacing the teak toerail with a aluminum we recently purchaced. This should (hopefully) function well for our needs, we will also be able to attach the new running backs to it with snap shackles. Most of all less maintenance.


As for everything else going on, looks like rain in the AM tomorrow. I will try to get some more pictures up of the progress...or lack of..but we have filled some dings and gouges hopefully can fair those tomorrow.

[Tim]

The difficulty in repairing regular Awlgrip is one of its potential pitfalls, but it's still an outstanding product. It's extremely durable and holds a long-lasting shine. With the proper preparation of surface and high-quality application, regular Awlgrip will last with virtually no maintenance for a decade or longer and look nearly as good as new. No coating lasts in perfect condition forever, of course.

As I've said before, I am not directly familiar with Peter's (Tynaje) gelcoat system that he's been touting here. So I reserve judgement on that pending more information and an eventual opportunity to see it in action.

However, typical gelcoat makes a lousy substitute for LPU, though, and the boats I've seen that have been resurfaced with traditional gelcoat just don't stand up to the LPU test in either initial appearance, nor in durability or the lasting quality of the "new" finish.

There are other excellent alternatives--Awlcraft 2000, Alexseal, and others--but it would be wrong to say anything except that Awlgrip is an outstanding product that isn't particularly difficult to work with with only a bit of experience. Maybe it's not the choice for every DIYer, but it's still the benchmark for finish quality as a point of comparison.

I think its always best to consider the pros and cons of the myriad choices based on individual situations. One product does not fit all situations. Experience, application situations, and desired results all factor in to the choice, and one should never try to boil it down to simple statements.

I haven't seen anything yet that matches or exceeds the overall shine, depth, hardness and durability of a properly applied Awlgrip or Alexseal surface. That doesn't mean there aren't also other good choices. I've been using Alexseal for a while now and am pleased with its shine and performance.

I took one of those "outreach" photos myself a couple years ago...hehe. This is Alexseal; the way the flash is and the angle of the camera obscure the effect somewhat. Mostly, I just thought it was funny to see Peter's "outreach" photo above, too, so I thought I'd post this one again for fun.



I think the ultimate quality of any finish, but perhaps moreso with the high-end LPUs, depends entirely on the quality of the preparation, and to some extent on the environs of the application situation. One really needs a decent building to apply these paints with the best results.

Peter, I'm confused. All along, I thought the Bertram project was using your gelcoat system. Now I find out it's Awlgrip? Help! I have to admit that I thought it looked as shiny as Awlgrip. (Because it is...)

I agree that your many comments on the gelcoat system would be most useful if opened in their own dedicated thread.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Tim]

There's actually a superyacht builder (the name escapes me at the moment) that applies the Awlgrip to its double-digit million dollar yachts with brush and roller because they feel it is a superior finish to spray. I think this was covered in Professional Boatbuilder some time back. I'm not saying everyone should throw away their spray guns, but this does say something about the potential for a quality job with hand tools.

Awlgrip can absolutely be successfully brushed and rolled, and when done properly is indistinguisable from a spray job. It's all about the proper reduction and application technique. A successful brush/roll job is NOT a guaranteed result, but it's very possible. That said, a successful brush job with any paint is NOT a guaranteed result. Technique always comes into play, of course.

Awlgrip applies nothing like varnish; the two consistencies could hardly be more different. Awlgrip that is thinned properly for roller is water thin, and can be challenging to work with, to say the least. I have brushed/rolled two boats, and feel that the results in both cases were excellent, particularly given that before that, I had never touched Awlgrip before.

The paint on my boat is getting a little long in the tooth, and the prepwork wasn't all it could have been (beginner's mistakes, long since surpassed). But the mistakes aren't a direct result of brush and roller application; the worst flaws that bother me are a result of a bad primer choice. (again: novice mistake) This is going back to 1998 (boat 1) and then 2000 (boat 2)--another lifetime, really..

To me, the main benefit of spraying LPU vs. a good brush/roller job is the ability to apply all the coats in one session, instead of needing to allow it to cure and sand between coats. The wet-on-wet approach has its own difficulties as well, though, mostly in terms of being able to properly see where you have sprayed.

I have not rolled Alexseal. It's a high solids paint, and my impression is that it's more befitting of spray equipment.

The "bear paw" shot (better than ham-handed, I guess) shows a spray job with Alexseal.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Rachel]

I was thinking that Dutch builder was DeVries, but I could easily be wrong. I'll take a look later. I remember the cover photo of the staggered armada of painters on "bleachers," paint pots and brushes in hand. It was impressive.

Rachel

[Figment]

It was Feadship.

(notice you're berthed next to Corona)
Peter, say Hello to the Washburns for me. They gave me a ride back from Fisher's after 'Round Island last year.

[Tim]

Are you saying , let it sit an induct like 545?

Not INduction...REduction is what I said was the key (thinning). Just to clear up any confusion there. Typically, it's just the primers that need the induction time after mixing base and converter, not the topcoats.

My experience was that the stuff needs to go on thinthinthinthinthinthinthin, or it will run and sag. The sags tended to happen in places where one section would overlap the one behind, resulting in a double thickness of paint.

[osprey171]

Well we had some rain this morning so didn't get to the boat untill the afternoon, gave me some time to install the new masthead, and pull some wire through the new conduit we installed in the mast. Its definitely a nice change from fairing and sanding. It looks like we will have a coat of primer on the hull friday. I will keep everyone posted. Its going to be really really really nice not to hear those wires clanging against the inside of the mast all night (we live aboard so big problem)... Anyway, a few pics..

[DELETED]

DELETED

[dasein668]

I'm a bit confused; are you rolling or spraying?

If you are going to roll and tip, you need to let the paint reach green cure, then sand between coats. Overnight at least. For spray, it just needs to tack; 30-45 minutes or so.

[Figment]

Flash.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Figment]

CREW LIST!!!

[DELETED]

DELETED

[catamount]

Geeze, Mike, you're really hot for the Halifax race, aren't you? :-)






Might I suggest: http://www.marbleheadtohalifax.com/Race ... upForm.htm






Sorry if I planted that bug, but GREYHAWK is just not going to be ready---this year. Oh, and Peter, isn't the Over the Hill award is for crews with an average age of over 50?

[Tim]

I am hoping to complete the entire process in two days, gloss pattern and grip areas.

Sounds like you will be spraying, then. You need a day per coat if brushing. And you need three coats, minimum.

Stick with what works for you.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[osprey171]

I am assuming Osprey has to endure the same

Got that right...All prep so far we are hoping to get the first coat of 545 primer on saturday. We had lots of filling and fairing to do, especially in the area of the hull to deck joint. There origonally was a teak rubrail just below the deck mounted toerail, the new toerail only extends down the hull about 3/16" of an inch so we have glassed and are now filling and fairing the hull to deck joint to make it one seamless transition for the new toerail to sit upon..
[/quote]
Yes, very ugly I know!! But has since been cleaned up..

Meanwhile all the new rigging and traveler came in, so that project is going on at the same time...If only I could do 2 things at once..

[Figment]

Geeze, Mike, you're really hot for the Halifax race, aren't you? :-)

Well, yeah, but no. It's just an instinctive kneejerk reaction at this point.
I need to not do any distance stuff this year. J is enough of a boat-widow lately as it is.

Halifax will be a bit slower under cruising canvas, eh?
Is the boat not rigged for a chute at all? It only now occurs to me that I've only ever seen her in CC, but I'd just assumed that it was a shorthanded situation.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[osprey171]

Finally, got the first coat of white 545 primer on today. Started early this AM sanding out the rest of the filler, after that was finished gave the boat a bath followed by a wipe down with acetone...After the acetone, i rewiped with T0115 and then with T0008..The temp was in the high 60's. I then mixed 20oz of 545 white base with 20oz of converter after about 15 minutes added 3.5oz of M3066 and a 3oz of T0031 brushing reducer...Well long story short the mix was a little thin, and started to sag slightly on the transom before it flashed. Once, I rounded the port side the paint went on pretty good just using the 7" west system foam rollers. I didnt bother to tip since the paint seemed to do a lot better on the warmer side of the boat. The one problem I did have (my own fault of course) was the I kept forgeting and overlaping the previous section I had painted...So there are areas where you can see the overlaps, but Im not to worried (maybe i should be) I figure they should sand out easily tomorrow..then again nothing is easy. So here is the first coat of 545 nothing to exciting almost looks the same as the sanded substrate...you can see some of the filled areas through the primer..

[Figment]

You might want to give the little redtree "hot dog" rollers a shot. I found that they worked better at laying a very fine coat of the watery-thin stuff.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[Tim]

I never use foam rollers for applying paint. They're just too thin.

I like a 3/16" nap mohair roller, like the Candy Stripe; it spreads the paint much better, but is still short enough to avoid overloading the paint if you use care. Clean the roller in solvent first, and do some test rolls to get out any random lint (but these are pretty lint-free to begin with). No one else seems to like these, so to each their own. But I can't stand the foamies. I find I get good results with mohair in any paint.

The gray primer does cover better, but can be harder to cover later with light topcoats, particularly with the brush/roll technique, which puts down such thin coats. But you have a couple coats of primer to go anyway. Be sure that you can't see any of the filler through the primer, or it will show up through the topcoat later. So put on plenty of the primer so that there's still a consistent, full-covering coat after sanding. Shortcutting now will cause you pain later.

The primer is a good test bed for your painting technique, but beware that the Awlgrip top coats act completely differently than the primer, so you will need to modify your technique further at that point. But with three coats minimum required, you get a good idea as to how the paint will act when you apply the first coat; you can fine-tune the application process for the second coat, and then hope for the best results with the third coat.

[DELETED]

DELETED

[osprey171]

I like a 3/16" nap mohair roller

I bought a few of these for the top coats, I think I will give them a try why not. Not much happened today, the wind picked up early so all i did was wet sand the hull with 220. Don't ask why but for some reason I like wet sanding by hand 100 times more then any type of sanding with power equipment..So she is smooth now ready for more primer tomorrow.

Question:

You can also go back over that primer later in the day to gain more coverage

I had read somewhere that it is possible to just keep going around the hull with the 545. By the time you have finished where you began is dry to the touch. Is this a bad idea? I was thinking about laying a few coats on tomorrow..

watch out I may be bugging you if I recognize it :)

Ill have to wait for a nice shiny finish before I disclose the location :)

[DELETED]

DELETED

[osprey171]

Ok soo, im still here. Things with the paint have been going pretty slow, have been working on all the other projects to get osprey ready for bluewater sailing... but after 5 coats of 545 primer we finally got the first coat of "sky blue" awlgrip on osprey. The color is well blue for sure, we wanted something different and we got it.

I mixed way to much paint 25oz color base, 12.5 oz brushing converter then reduced to 25% to start. Starting at the transom, the paint seemed to flow nicely, until that is came around to the sunny side of the boat. Overall, the coverage was great, i do believe we applied a little heavy and didnt reduce enough. So looks like tomorrow will be some wet sanding and hopefully more painting!!

[/img]

[dasein668]

FIVE coats of 545? Oh, the agony!

The color looks nice. Good luck with the next coat.

[Hirilondë]

I had read somewhere that it is possible to just keep going around the hull with the 545.

I did 5 coats rolling and brushing as needed in 16 hours of a marathon day on my boat. It was a sick day to say the least, but it meant no sanding till the end. I will do almost anything that helps avoid any sanding.

She is looking good. Will you be wet sanding, compounding etc at the end? Even though I rolled the primer I paid an associate at work to spray the finish paint. Had I not had that opportunity I think I would have been doing as you are.

[Arcadia]

Wet sanding and compounding AwlGrip? I thought that was not an option. It seems I read somewhere that once the surface is abraded(compounded) that the properties that create the high gloss and durability are lost. Is this not correct? Or is there a window before the complete cure that allows compounding?