Genoa cloth weight

[Figment]

I'm waffling between 4.6 and 5.6oz fabric for my new 150.

Lighter cloth will be better in my typically light air, but won't be as durable.

Thoughts?

[bcooke]

Go with the lighter stuff and buy a new one more often. It is only money and a sail too heavy to stay full is very annoying.

-Britton

[Tim]

It's hard to argue with Britton's answer.

I think my 130 is 5.-something ounce, and is fine for most conditions. In the lightest, drifter-type stuff, it's awful. Once it's blowing 8 or so, it's fine.

If I were going with a big light air sail like a 150, I'd go as light as I could, given all practical considerations.

[Jason K]

I say go with the lighter cloth as well. You can always change headsails as the conditions dictate and, if you're going to have one really good headsail, make it the one that optimizes your typical sailing conditions - even if that means it lives a somewhat shorter life and has a narrower wind range.

[windrose]

Figment, it's just money. ;-)

[Figment]

I can think of two counterarguments.

1. If the wind is REALLY that light, I should set a 170 drifter instead.
2. I generally don't downshift to the blade (I need a new one of those too) until it's really blowing the dog off the chain. My first move is to reef the main but continue to carry the full foresail. Fractional rig with low CE and all that.

But for all that I do think you guys are right. Get the sail that best suits my typical weather, and just be smart about when I fly it.

[dasein668]

1. If the wind is REALLY that light, I should set a 170 drifter instead.
2. I generally don't downshift to the blade (I need a new one of those too) until it's really blowing the dog off the chain. My first move is to reef the main but continue to carry the full foresail. Fractional rig with low CE and all that.

Given points one and two, maybe you should consider a slightly smaller primary? 130 rather than 150, and maybe slightly heavier cloth?

[Figment]

In the light breezes and short sloppy chop of long island sound, I'm convinced that a 150 really is the best primary size. I've had (something approximating a) 130-135 on the boat, and it just didn't give the same drive through the slop.

We each have our own criteria for these things, eh?
I'll take the first reef around 15 knots, depending on point of sail.
Shift to the "blade" (really it's a 105+/-) in the 20-24 range.
Take the second reef at 30, and possibly hoist this ridiculous "storm jib" thing that I've only ever flown once.

Changing that genoa-to-blade shift point down to 18-20 won't break my heart.

[dasein668]

Yeah, in Casco Bay if the wind is so light enough that the 130 is undersized, there certainly isn't a chop, at least not inside the islands. If there's enough wind to reasonably get outside, than there's usually enough wind to drive the boat through whatever the sea conditions are.

I'm about the same on the mainsail reefing though. I prefer not to be out daysailing when I need that second reef however! I've only had to use it twice, and both when trying to get home from cruising on a deadline.

[Figment]

Part of this has been informed by a recent racing experience in heavy weather (35-40 gusting to 50+) which gave me a whole new level of appreciation for carrying the proper sail inventory.

Everyone had the double-reefed main. Our competition (both Pearson 30s) were both flying a #3 jib of something like 90%, and were in "survival mode" for most of the race. We thought they were just nuts for beating themselves up like that. We (on a C&C Redwing 30) were flying a #4 jib and were simply hauling ass the whole way around, having a fantastic time. Later on at the bar we learned that they simply didn't have a smaller sail on board.
Some of those P30 sailors expressed their envy and frustration at watching us have such an easy time of it. We all had a laugh, but it was one of those things that was only funny AFTERWARD.

Tangentally, this same day also gave me renewed appreciation for the nature of our Good Old Boats. I caught a ride back to the mainland on an S2 9.1, which is an absolute friggin CORK!! Sailing a reach with the #3 and no main, I got more beat-up riding railmeat for the 20minutes home than I did trimming for the 2hour race.

[Tim]

Matching your sails to the conditions you tend to experience is important.

Of course, some compromise has to enter the equation eventually, unless you plan to outfit with a different sail for ever increment of wind strength and sea state.

I don't know enough about the ultimate strengths of these various cloths to say whether the lighter 150 is good up into the high teens. I suspect that lighter cloth will lose its shape faster in heavier air, and really should be kept down in the low teens and under. Light sails also stretch more as the wind creeps up, creating additional belly that only knocks you over faster.

Given the additional info you've provided, maybe what you really need is the heavier 150, with plans for that 170 drifter in a year or so. for those really light days. That might be the best way to truly cover your bases in your area.

We do have a sailmaker on board here--jollyboat. Maybe he hasn't seen this thread.

Are you thinking tri-radial for your genoa?

[Figment]

No tri-radial. Classic crosscut. Heck, part of me is surprised that I'm not going with Oceanus cloth.

I bat around the idea of that drifter every so often. flown from the masthead, made of 3/4oz cloth, etc. but man I just know it'll never ever ever work its way up the priority list. I mentioned it above simply for the mental exercise of composing counterarguments.

Instead I think I'll do the light 150 and augment the other end of the spectrum..... replace my blown-out jib with something a bit larger, say something in the 115-120 range (just small enough to sheet to my inboard tracks), AND then a true 90% blade.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

[Tim]

No tri-radial. Classic crosscut. Heck, part of me is surprised that I'm not going with Oceanus cloth.

Stick in the mud! ;<)

[Figment]

Ya know, sometimes I need to just keep my big yap shut. Julia asked if we were getting the new sail in the cream-colored cloth. so, now we ARE!
The upcharge was minimal, so why not?

Whadda ya mean, "stick in the mud"!!???

I've been doing so much racing this year, it's been really difficult to remember that I own a CRUISING boat. Looks count. Next thing you know, I'll be painting my spars.

(jeez, now why didn't I start this thread in "Sails Rigging and Systems"? feel free to move it, Tim.)

[The Good Goose]

I would opt for the heavier end of the spectrum myself. If you think you will be racing then definately go with the 170 it is worth the penalty. My 170 is 5 or 6 ounce and I like it alot. It has been my experience that with a reefed main and a couple people on the rail it was good up to 20 kts. In light airs racing we're going to lose anyway so I don't care. Cruising I am a lot more likely to put up the chute in light air downwind then I am to reduce sail when it pipes up. I think you would find it was a big pain having a sail you were worried about every time it got puffy. I never have trouble keeping the sail full in light airs unless the sheets get really wet. I think switching to lighter sheets would help as well. In really light stuff downwind the only thing that really works is a drifter or other light air sail. If a 4 ounce sail will fill but a 6 ounce sail won't I would say that you are going awfully slow anyway. I just can't imagine the difference would be that noticeable.

Brock

Brock

[Figment]

Brock,
Where you do sheet your 170? The track for my 150 is on the toerail, runs the length of the aft deadlight. I would think a 170 would need to sheet aft of the winch, no?

When I bought the boat it came with something like a 175 (but heavy, not a light air sail, made little sense) but nowhere to sheet it, except perhaps that there were a pair of padeyes just aft of the cockpit that could have taken snatchblocks. Until now I'd always assumed those were for spinnaker sheets.

Really I have no plans to seriously race this boat. That's what the mudheads are for. I assume you did a few Round Island races in your time here. Follow the link to Chip Riegel's photos. Good stuff.

[Jason K]

That looks like a fun race - it's always nice when the breeze shows up. I think these photo's show the conditions best. Particularly the second one - bareheaded with a reef in and still haulin. Heavy toes! First one and Second one .

What was it blowing?

[Figment]

Winds at the start were 30-35, gusting 40s. As the day wore on we saw steady 40s, gusting 50s. I don't remember feeling that it was that windy, but those were the reported numbers. Mostly I remember the spume blowing off the waves. Good day!

I think those pics you linked were before the start, in the relatively calm water of the harbor. Really that was Chip's only chance to get good shots, even with his superdandy image-stabilizing equipment. I don't think he could get anyone out in the middle of the sound.
This was more like the real deal, just as we left the protection of the cove. I think his assitant shot this one from land.
Or how about a C&C 35 flying only the #3 with a crew of ELEVEN on board to hold it down.

[Tim]

Ah yes...racing. I remember racing!

That's why I'm solely a cruiser now...

[Jason K]

Ah yes...racing. I remember racing!

That's why I'm solely a cruiser now...

The same man that can grind the most uncomfortable, darkest regions of a boat's interior for hours on end and still be sane enough to remember to take a dozen photos won't bounce around the cans for a few hours? Nuts, I tell you! ;)

[Tim]

Ah yes...racing. I remember racing!

That's why I'm solely a cruiser now...

The same man that can grind the most uncomfortable, darkest regions of a boat's interior for hours on end and still be sane enough to remember to take a dozen photos won't bounce around the cans for a few hours? Nuts, I tell you! ;)

Burnout...been there, done that. After 15 or whatever years of a lot of racing, enough was enough. I haven't looked back. It was fun at the time, though!

[The Good Goose]

We still sheet in front of the winch I think the sail is like a 167 I had the sailmaker measure it after some people complained about our phrf. I think our track goes back to the coaming. If I was just going to cruise I would have the clew raised so I could see under the sail. I think you could try the same with your bigger sail and probably get a nice 150 for 3 or 400 dollars. That way you could see if the heavier cloth would work for you. My main reason for thinking the heavier cloth would be better is that the sail will last so much longer. Sails cost so much I want to try and get as much life as possible. I generaly use my 110 if I'm out for a leisurely sail; It is so easy to tack with it. With the 170 there is a mile of sheet to winch in, if it is light it has to be helped around the mast and you can't see under it.

I don't have a 135 so its either blade or 170 when we race. The 110 is original to the boat so I just use it for knocking around. it is a miter cut and it still sheets amazingly flat. I don't know why they got away from that design I think for a cruising sail it works well and keeps it shape alot longer than a panel cut.

We broached once on the backside of fishers island in a tartan 27 I was racing on. I thought the spreaders were going to hit the water. The year I raced our triton it was so flat we were racing a boat that had anchored. When they passed us we dropped our anchor. we dropped out after 3 hours and we were still in sight of the start line. I agree with Tim. When racing is fun its great when its not its time to go cruising. Last year we had a great crew and it was really fun. This year we had an inexperienced crew not so fun. Most of the races this year I think it would have been better to have gone for a daysail.

Brock

[Figment]

Wohoo! just got the email that the new sail is done!

Of course, this news comes as I'm on my way out of town for vacation, so I won't get to play with my new toy until I return next week. It's always a double-edged sword, eh?

Lattas, potatas!