Rachel wrote:My boat has seven through hulls, and one log propeller exit below the waterline. There's an assortment of gate valves and ball valves, but no true seacocks (photos below). Right now my boat is out on the hard, which would make it a great time to replace some of these, except it isn't...
Do your gate valves operate? The look to be in mostly good condition, and should be since they lived in fresh water. Just because the valves look good doesn't mean they are in proper operating condition, so you should test them not only for basic operation (i.e. turn the handle), but also ensure they close fully and don't leak. You'll need to close the valves in question and fill the hoses and then leave them for a day or two in order to monitor the watertight integrity of the closed valve.
As long as the valve bodies, related fittings, and through hulls are in good structural condition, and if you plan to leave certain valves open (such as your scuppers), then the ability to have a totally watertight seal, for the way you plan to use the boat in the near future, isn't necessarily paramount. You can live with them for now, in other words. Unless any of the valves are somehow substandard. (See my further comments towards the end.)
Looking though the photos again, however, I see a lot of pipe nipples in the mix. We've all determined that you can't find bronze pipe nipples, so those are probably brass. Brass doesn't belong in any potentially underwater connection, so while you may not need to replace your valves right now, those nipples probably have to go. And pretty soon, though as long as your valves work you can do it with the boat in the water if you want.
Rachel wrote:
There are a few reasons why I'm not just jumping in and replacing all of these. For one thing, I'm busy with the bilge, and for another it's cold outside and dark early, so not great weather for working on things or making fiberglass patches if I eliminate some of them. I'd like to live with things for awhile in any case, so that I can make better decisions about which ones to replace with seacocks and which to eliminate.
Of course the boat has lived with many of these for 40 years, and if the PO still had the boat it would be launched next spring probably without a second thought about these. If I'd bought the boat in the water, I might not be starting this thread so soon. And it's not that the PO was terribly thoughtless: Many boats on the Great Lakes - with its fresh water and very short season - do still have gate valves. I think the editor of Good Old Boat even wrote an editorial defending them up to a point, if I remember correctly (he wasn't saying they are great, or anything anyone should install, but was responding to the idea that everyone on the Great Lakes should immediately schedule a panicked haul-out and change them).
There are a few reasons why gate valves have fallen out of favor.
First, and most importantly, it's very easy for the seal to become compromised because of the way the valve operates. Debris can get in there and prevent the valve from closing properly, or at all. Ball valves don't have this issue, which is why they gained popularity.
Next, gate valves are rarely flanged, and therefore the whole arrangement is less strong than a valve that incorporates a strong mounting flange (i.e. a true seacock). This can be an important issue, particularly if the valve becomes sticky and hard to operate, but again: it's not as if your boat will immediately blub-blub to the bottom if you launch her with these valves still in place.
Finally, and far less importantly, quarter-turn ball valves offer a clear and immediate visual indication of whether they're open or closed, whereas you can't tell with a gate valve. Also, the handles and stems become easily corroded and may become inoperable as a result. This is only an issue in salt water, really. And it won't happen overnight.
I wouldn't go so far as to defend gate valves and condone their continued use, and I believe that you should eventually replace them all, but a bit of common sense comes into play when determining the importance of their immediate replacement. I suspect that things are probably in good enough shape that you don't have to worry about it right this minute. Schedule it for your next haulout. If you don't get your boat in the water soon, she may not get in this year, the way these things compound and expand to use all and more available time. Do only what is absolutely required at this stage, and lacking evidence to the contrary, I don't think the through hulls are on that list right now--unless there is a true reason to replace any of them right now, such as substandard materials or clear signs of structural or other unsuitability. (Again: see my comment at the bottom of this response.)
Otherwise, I'd install your new garboard plug, clean the bilge, and launch.
Rachel wrote:Here's a question: Since I have no immediate need to use some of these valves (and would just be keeping them closed), could I just take them out and put in new, bronze through hulls, tighten them down from inside with the nuts that come with them, and then cap them off somehow?
Assuming the existing valves work and don't leak, as I discussed above, you're better off leaving things as is for now. I don't see any reason to replace the through hulls
right now unless their condition truly calls for it--which it doesn't sound is the case, at least for most of your fittings. Again: schedule the replacement of all the valves and through hulls for a later date, even later this year, but there's no reason to breathlessly take care of it all now, unless you want to turn your boat into a torn-apart project for the whole summer.
Rachel wrote:...and the other me saying "Just launch the boat and stop camping in the boatyard. They've been like that for ages. You can haul later this year, when things are warmer and more relaxed."
Listen to this voice for now, but don't ignore the one telling you that something better is eventually called for.
Rachel wrote:One note is that I would probably keep the portside cockpit drain valve closed unless I replace that clear hose.
Good call.
Rachel wrote:And is that Sumlog exit okay? I guess they don't normally have any kind of seacock, do they?
No, they don't have a seacock. Leave this alone until the time comes (if the time comes) when you want to remove it and patch the hole.
Was this shown in one of the pictures? I didn't see it.
Rachel wrote:
Another view. Yeah, non-AWAB clamps and not always two, either (though maybe that's okay if they're good clamps?).
Double-clamping is a misnomer in many cases. Most hose barbs simply do not have sufficient room to allow for two clamps to seat properly on the barb without ending up too close to the end of the hose or the hose just past the barb. Older hose barbs and some straight nipple connections are often truly long enough to allow the use of two clamps, if desired.
The clamps need to be quality in any event, but a single hose clamp is most usually better than two on modern fittings.
Those are pretty cheesy looking hose clamps, too, so I'd suggest replacing them on all your underwater hoses now.
Note that the only hoses for which double clamps are indicated, whether by US Code or CFR (therefore required) or ABYC (therefore suggested, if not strictly required by any enforceable law) are the fuel fill hose at both ends, and the engine exhaust hose at all connections. Nowhere does it even mention double clamps for other hoses.
Many hoses are ruined by inappropriate clamping. Following proper clamping procedures and using high quality clamps will ensure long-lived safety.
- 1. Clamps too close to the end of the hose can cause damage to the end of the hose, particularly if over-tightened. THe hose end may splay out and crack, or form other damage.
2. Clamps too close to the hidden end of the barb inside the hose can actually start to force the hose off the barb--again, particularly if over-tightened, where the force can cinch the hose together and actuall start squeezing it off the barb.
3. The typical perforated hose clamps bite into the hose and damage the outer casing. In addition, the sharp edges of most hose clamps cause similar damage.
4. Tight enough is tight enough. You don't need to crank them down to within an inch of their lives. When they are secure and don't leak, it's enough.
5. Inexpensive clamps have non-stainless adjustment screws that often corrode and fall out. Obviously this is a bad thing.
6. A single quality clamp, with a solid, rolled-edge band and made of all 316 stainless (yes, AWAB), secured roughly in the center of the hose barb, is the most secure way to go about it.
Rachel wrote:
This valve is capped off, but it's the former seawater intake for the galley sink, and it's in a locker under the sink (stbd).
What is that capped with? Whatever it is, remove that cap and replace it with a bronze one. You don't want obviously mixed metals like that in a saltwater boat--never mind that the cap looks like some sort of zinc-plated thing that is utterly inappropriate here.
Rachel wrote:
This is the head intake valve. Although I realize from reading that there may not be many threads engaged (shudder), at least the top of this line is captured by the shelf the head sits on, so it can't be easily broken off.
That actually looks fairly well threaded to me. There are virtually always threads showing when a fitting is tightly secured, though you are right that incompatible threads on pipe fittings lead to a lot of improperly threaded installations.
I don't like this valve, though. It looks like a boiler-type valve, which may be brass, and the handle doesn't look stainless to me either--it looks zinc-plated. Of the pictures you've shown us, this particular valve looks like it might be worth replacing now. But read on.
Here's a final question. If you launch now, when would you realistically be able or willing to haul again to address any of these issues?
I truly think you'll be better off to get your boat in the water sooner than later and make her the true liveaboard that you want and need. Breathe a little, clean things up, and make her home--and relax. You could leave every issue you've pointed out for a later date, but some of them shouldn't be left for too long, particularly given the fact that it is looking increasingly as if your boat's former owner or caretakers used fittings that might be suitable in the lakes, but not so much in the ocean.
That said, several months or more in the water isn't going to make these things fall apart. Maybe late summer or early fall would be a good time for a haulout dedicated to replacing these fittings to suit your desires. But I think that trying to cram this all in now, when what you really need (and a main reason for buying the boat) is a place to call home. While I am in no way condoning nor supporting installations that aren't all they should be, sometimes a little sense and judgement is called for, and prioritizing the bigger picture.
