I'm interested in peoples recommendations for low viscosity resins. I'm looking for something to fill gelcoat crazing and hopefully stabilize the flaking that is occurring on my deck. I have seen Nathan's Dasein project, but would like to avoid the whole deck encapsulation method at this point, if possible. My problem is not quite that severe, but it could be one of those things where if I were to start chipping away at it, I might end up chipping/grinding awaythe whole deck surface.
I considered CEPS as a first coat to penetrate the crazing and work under the the flaking, but I don't think it has the adhesive or gap filling properties necessary to stabilize the surface, at least by itself.
Any thoughts?
Chris
Low viscosity resins
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
The problem I see is that you're sort of looking for a single product containing properties that are essentially mutally exclusive: thin enough to penetrate very small cracks, yet thick and strong enough to actually work like epoxy and stabilize the surface.
CPES, which I've never used and of which I'm not a fan, is really meant for petrifying wood fibers. It's loaded with solvents to make it as thin as it is. I see no benefit from using it in a crazing situation. Therefore, in your case, I would suggest a different approach.
I suggest that you grind your deck heavily to acheive a stable substrate and remove any and all loose material; you really must grind away any truly suspect or loose flakes in order to have a chance of success.
Then, I'd suggest that, after filling any low spots resulting from the above, you skim coat the surface with very slightly thickened epoxy first, using just a bit of cabosil to improve the adhesive properties, and then a more thickened layer, mixed with microballoons and cabosil to form a fairing mixture.
Gelcoat crazing will not ever disappear completely unless you completely remove, or encapsulate, the affected areas. Unfortunately, attempting repair of a condition like this doesn't have any easy or time-saving methods that are going to work effectively in the long, or even the short, run.
So if you're understandably wary of going the full route of gelcoat removal and/or encapsulation, you first must come to terms with the fact that you will likely never completely hide the crazing, and also that you are still faced with a fairly substantial repair effort to have even relative success. But even the most basic repair of something like this necessarily must ensure the removal of truly bad material, and the effective stabilzation of the remainder.
It's a tough problem, and sadly there aren't any magic answers--and especially no magic products that will cure all ills.
Good luck!
CPES, which I've never used and of which I'm not a fan, is really meant for petrifying wood fibers. It's loaded with solvents to make it as thin as it is. I see no benefit from using it in a crazing situation. Therefore, in your case, I would suggest a different approach.
I suggest that you grind your deck heavily to acheive a stable substrate and remove any and all loose material; you really must grind away any truly suspect or loose flakes in order to have a chance of success.
Then, I'd suggest that, after filling any low spots resulting from the above, you skim coat the surface with very slightly thickened epoxy first, using just a bit of cabosil to improve the adhesive properties, and then a more thickened layer, mixed with microballoons and cabosil to form a fairing mixture.
Gelcoat crazing will not ever disappear completely unless you completely remove, or encapsulate, the affected areas. Unfortunately, attempting repair of a condition like this doesn't have any easy or time-saving methods that are going to work effectively in the long, or even the short, run.
So if you're understandably wary of going the full route of gelcoat removal and/or encapsulation, you first must come to terms with the fact that you will likely never completely hide the crazing, and also that you are still faced with a fairly substantial repair effort to have even relative success. But even the most basic repair of something like this necessarily must ensure the removal of truly bad material, and the effective stabilzation of the remainder.
It's a tough problem, and sadly there aren't any magic answers--and especially no magic products that will cure all ills.
Good luck!
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Tim,
Thanks for your response.
You are right of course that the only solution with a reasonable chance of long term success is total removal or complete encapsulation. Right now I am in the process of repainting my cabin and cockpit areas, and I agree with your idea of using something like Interdeck for non-skid areas, and Awlgrip for the 'skid'. Given that the non-skid areas are the only areas exhibiting the serious problem of flaking, I'm inclined to patch by grinding those areas effected as you suggest and repaint deck areas as necessary at this point.
This brings up a related question about long term damage that might occur from gelcoat crazing if water migrates to the deck laminate. Is this something to be concerned about?
The reason I ask is because our decks have Treadmaster on them, applied by the previous owner, and not too well at that. It was applied with unthickened epoxy, which resulted in pockets where it didn't adhere and which can hold moisture. The areas which are area effected by the flaking are areas where I removed the covering 14 years ago when we first bought the boat and painted everything previously. The cabin top is one of those areas. The rest of the cabin/deck has the usual fine crazing typical of boat of this age(41 years old). The Treadmaster is still on most of the main deck surface and is probably hiding a great deal more that could be addressed. As long as it's not an impending disaster waiting to happen, the occasional patching works for me at this point. What do you think?
Thanks for putting together this forum. I've been visiting for a number of years now and find it quite informative and entertaining. I enjoy seeing how others solve similar problems. This recent project prompted my registering and posting.
Thanks again,
Chris
Thanks for your response.
You are right of course that the only solution with a reasonable chance of long term success is total removal or complete encapsulation. Right now I am in the process of repainting my cabin and cockpit areas, and I agree with your idea of using something like Interdeck for non-skid areas, and Awlgrip for the 'skid'. Given that the non-skid areas are the only areas exhibiting the serious problem of flaking, I'm inclined to patch by grinding those areas effected as you suggest and repaint deck areas as necessary at this point.
This brings up a related question about long term damage that might occur from gelcoat crazing if water migrates to the deck laminate. Is this something to be concerned about?
The reason I ask is because our decks have Treadmaster on them, applied by the previous owner, and not too well at that. It was applied with unthickened epoxy, which resulted in pockets where it didn't adhere and which can hold moisture. The areas which are area effected by the flaking are areas where I removed the covering 14 years ago when we first bought the boat and painted everything previously. The cabin top is one of those areas. The rest of the cabin/deck has the usual fine crazing typical of boat of this age(41 years old). The Treadmaster is still on most of the main deck surface and is probably hiding a great deal more that could be addressed. As long as it's not an impending disaster waiting to happen, the occasional patching works for me at this point. What do you think?
Thanks for putting together this forum. I've been visiting for a number of years now and find it quite informative and entertaining. I enjoy seeing how others solve similar problems. This recent project prompted my registering and posting.
Thanks again,
Chris
Tim,
Sorry, one more question. Do you think it's possible to encapsulate just the cabin top or deck surface for instance, or would that be asking for trouble with the glass layer delaminating along the edges? I noticed on Dasein the glass covered the entire topsides, ending under the toerail.
If I tackled one section at a time it might be a more manageable proposition.
Sorry, one more question. Do you think it's possible to encapsulate just the cabin top or deck surface for instance, or would that be asking for trouble with the glass layer delaminating along the edges? I noticed on Dasein the glass covered the entire topsides, ending under the toerail.
If I tackled one section at a time it might be a more manageable proposition.
-
dasein668
- Boateg
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:09 am
- Boat Name: Dasein
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton 668
- Location: Portland, Maine
- Contact:
Glass properly applied and faired in should not delaminate. The only issue would be making sure the surface was properly prepped for a good epoxy bond. Epoxy will bond the glass strongly to the deck surface and it will not come loose.
I'm not sure that doing the project piecemeal would really be substantially less work in the long run, but it certainly could be done.
I'm not sure that doing the project piecemeal would really be substantially less work in the long run, but it certainly could be done.
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
No, the edge won't delaminate as long as the material is applied properly.
I agree that a project like this is so substantial and so messy that it makes the most sense to do it all at once. But if you can accept the fact that you'll have to repeat the whole mess and process each time you address a new area, there's no reason you can't do it in pieces.
I agree that a project like this is so substantial and so messy that it makes the most sense to do it all at once. But if you can accept the fact that you'll have to repeat the whole mess and process each time you address a new area, there's no reason you can't do it in pieces.
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
-
dasein668
- Boateg
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:09 am
- Boat Name: Dasein
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton 668
- Location: Portland, Maine
- Contact:
Oh, come on Tim. You love to nitpick. Let's call a spade a spade, no? heheTim wrote:Oh, and I hate to nitpick, but topsides really refers to the area of the hull above the waterline, not any part of the deck.
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
Tim and Nathan,
Thanks for your thoughts. I certainly agree that it would be nice to do the entire job at once but at this point I'm considering glassing just the nonskid sections of the cabin top and cockpit areas only. Besides the deck itself, they are the only areas that have that serious crazing and flaking problems. ( the flaking appears to be a separation of the two different layers of gelcoat in the nonskid areas only) All the hardware is already off and with the exception of the sections of nonskid that are effected, I could be ready to prime in a day or so. I've really been holding off until I decide how to continuing.
My thought is to get the cabin and cockpit areas refinished this year and look at dealing with the deck next year. I had been debating whether to remove the Treadmaster this year anyway, or just painting between it, as I did originally. I had to remove a section of it in the stern, which lead to the discovery of the crazing/flaking underneath, which precipitated this discussion. One thing leads to another. I could just leave it on, it hides all the crazing on deck, and it is great nonskid. Tearing that off will certainly leave plenty to deal with, whenever I get to it. I think I need to find or build a shed to work in, but we are currently in a yard so....
Besides, time is limited and I don't want to miss a season of sailing. That might be worth the aggravation of dealing with the mess a second time.
Let's see..sailing or grinding...
Chris
Thanks for your thoughts. I certainly agree that it would be nice to do the entire job at once but at this point I'm considering glassing just the nonskid sections of the cabin top and cockpit areas only. Besides the deck itself, they are the only areas that have that serious crazing and flaking problems. ( the flaking appears to be a separation of the two different layers of gelcoat in the nonskid areas only) All the hardware is already off and with the exception of the sections of nonskid that are effected, I could be ready to prime in a day or so. I've really been holding off until I decide how to continuing.
My thought is to get the cabin and cockpit areas refinished this year and look at dealing with the deck next year. I had been debating whether to remove the Treadmaster this year anyway, or just painting between it, as I did originally. I had to remove a section of it in the stern, which lead to the discovery of the crazing/flaking underneath, which precipitated this discussion. One thing leads to another. I could just leave it on, it hides all the crazing on deck, and it is great nonskid. Tearing that off will certainly leave plenty to deal with, whenever I get to it. I think I need to find or build a shed to work in, but we are currently in a yard so....
Besides, time is limited and I don't want to miss a season of sailing. That might be worth the aggravation of dealing with the mess a second time.
Let's see..sailing or grinding...
Chris
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
There's no question that the desire/requirement to have a usable sailing season dictates how one goes about some of these projects.
The tradeoff for having a seasons' use on the water is that you have to more or less repeat a process that could have been done in one fell swoop, but sometimes that is the best way.
While I believe in doing projects well and thoroughly, I also believe that the whole point is to use and enjoy your boat. So I appreciate the need to spread large projects out so that you don't lose the use of the boat for a season or more.
The tradeoff for having a seasons' use on the water is that you have to more or less repeat a process that could have been done in one fell swoop, but sometimes that is the best way.
While I believe in doing projects well and thoroughly, I also believe that the whole point is to use and enjoy your boat. So I appreciate the need to spread large projects out so that you don't lose the use of the boat for a season or more.
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Tim and Nathan,
I'll try and get some pics in the next couple of days. I'll have to read up on how to post em
I should have brought the camera today; I ground out the gelcoat in the stern and surfaced with epoxy fairing compound as well as sanded the cabin and cockpit with 60 grit to prep for glassing in the next couple of days hopefully.
Thanks for the advice.
Chris
I'll try and get some pics in the next couple of days. I'll have to read up on how to post em
I should have brought the camera today; I ground out the gelcoat in the stern and surfaced with epoxy fairing compound as well as sanded the cabin and cockpit with 60 grit to prep for glassing in the next couple of days hopefully.
Thanks for the advice.
Chris
OK let see if this posting of pictures works.
General view of the boat in it's present condition
Pretty well sanded, almost ready for glassing the cabin top nonskid.
Here is an example of the crazing and flaking that is occurring. It appears to be limited to those areas that the Treadmaster has been removed from. If you look closely you can see the shadow of where it extended to about 2-3 inches from the toe rail,to about the pulpit base.
This is the result of tapping around the crazing with the corner of a scraper.
and a detail
and here is the real problem.
I have to assume that a good portion of the deck beneath the covering is in this condition. I have been aware of the problem from repairing small areas like where this corner that needs to be reglued,but I have in truth been ignoring it, patching as necessary. It's hard to see in the detail, but it seems that the upper layer of gelcoat is separating from the gelcoat layer below it, and it seems to be a distinct layer. In other words it's not chipping out to a random depth and you can see that dirt is being deposited in a layer under the flaking surfaces. If that makes sense? I'm guessing it's from water absorption or heat (the treadmaster does get hot), or maybe both causing this separation. Once it starts, it seems to continue, even though the deck is no longer covered. I have repaired areas of the cabin top several times but it just continues to craze and chip in areas adjacent to the repairs.
I did grind out the stern areas where i just removed the treadmaster last week and ended up removing that top layer of gecoat over the entire area that was covered. As I was grinding it was easy to see it separating at that layer right up to the uncover portion of the deck where it became solid. That area is now filled/surfaced with epoxy.
As I said, at this point I'm leaning towards just dealing with encapsulating the cabin top and cockpit seats which are also showing signs of problems beginning, and Patching the deck as necessary and painting everything, and dealing with the deck next year so as not to lose the sailing season. After all it's been like this for some time, and it does appear that even where it's separating, there is a layer of gelcoat below that protecting the laminate(I hope)
This is depressing..this is what the boat is supposed to look like.
I'm open to suggestions(reluctantly, cause I know the answer)
Chris
General view of the boat in it's present condition
Pretty well sanded, almost ready for glassing the cabin top nonskid.
Here is an example of the crazing and flaking that is occurring. It appears to be limited to those areas that the Treadmaster has been removed from. If you look closely you can see the shadow of where it extended to about 2-3 inches from the toe rail,to about the pulpit base.
This is the result of tapping around the crazing with the corner of a scraper.
and a detail
and here is the real problem.
I have to assume that a good portion of the deck beneath the covering is in this condition. I have been aware of the problem from repairing small areas like where this corner that needs to be reglued,but I have in truth been ignoring it, patching as necessary. It's hard to see in the detail, but it seems that the upper layer of gelcoat is separating from the gelcoat layer below it, and it seems to be a distinct layer. In other words it's not chipping out to a random depth and you can see that dirt is being deposited in a layer under the flaking surfaces. If that makes sense? I'm guessing it's from water absorption or heat (the treadmaster does get hot), or maybe both causing this separation. Once it starts, it seems to continue, even though the deck is no longer covered. I have repaired areas of the cabin top several times but it just continues to craze and chip in areas adjacent to the repairs.
I did grind out the stern areas where i just removed the treadmaster last week and ended up removing that top layer of gecoat over the entire area that was covered. As I was grinding it was easy to see it separating at that layer right up to the uncover portion of the deck where it became solid. That area is now filled/surfaced with epoxy.
As I said, at this point I'm leaning towards just dealing with encapsulating the cabin top and cockpit seats which are also showing signs of problems beginning, and Patching the deck as necessary and painting everything, and dealing with the deck next year so as not to lose the sailing season. After all it's been like this for some time, and it does appear that even where it's separating, there is a layer of gelcoat below that protecting the laminate(I hope)
This is depressing..this is what the boat is supposed to look like.
I'm open to suggestions(reluctantly, cause I know the answer)
Chris
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
Thanks for the pictures.
I agree with you that, clearly, the poor installation of the Treadmaster is causing the damage to your gelcoat. From what you've said earlier, the Treamaster was sort of stuck down with plain epoxy--and poorly at that (the "prepwork", as it were, seems pretty minimal, given the fact that the Treadmaster has uncovered the still-existing molded nonskid, which would conspire to prevent a good bond with the too-thin epoxy), and it looks like water has seeped in and stagnated beneath, where it's had time, heat, and the opportunity for chemical reaction with the gelcoat in those areas. It's a real shame to see such widespread damage caused by careless and unknowledgable work.
Now that you are aware of the problem, clearly you'll need to address it, but you need not do so all at once. I don't see any problem with fixing the areas you've already uncovered now, and leaving the remainder till next off-season. It's not likely to become appreciably worse; if it does, it may even make your future demolition that much easier. With some time under your belt, you can better plan the project so that it can be accomplished over the off-season, rather than trying to hurry through now, or, worse, giving up on the whole season to address it.
With time to formulate a good plan of attack for when the boat is next hauled, you'll be ahead of the game when you start in the fall. Assuming you plan to address the remaining areas then, I highly suggest that you get as much done as you can as soon after the boat is hauled as possible. The off-season seems like a long time when you haul out, but as we all know there are many weeks or months where you can't get much done (thanks to the weather), and spring and the prospect for the new season come quickly, seemingly out of nowhere.
You're faced with a significant job ahead, but it's acheivable within an off-season as long as you go about it efficiently. If you can get all the demolition done, and at least some of the fairing and other prep, you'll be much more able to properly take care of the finishing details and new paint come the nice springtime weather, giving you enough time to finish up before the season starts.
The good news is that if the worst of the cracking is all beneath the Treadmaster-d areas, you may find you don't need to consider the full encapsulation method of repair, since new nonskid is far more forgiving of minor crazing than high-gloss smooth areas would be. You'll still need to thoroughly grind and chip away the damaged gelcoat, and then refair the decks, but with new nonskid slated for most or all of these areas, I think you may find that you don't necessarily need to go with the full layer of fiberglass. Of course, this will ultimately depend on what you find as you get into the project, and possibly on more details of the deck that I am currently unware of.
It's an interesting project (am I sick????), and I look forward to following your progress.
I agree with you that, clearly, the poor installation of the Treadmaster is causing the damage to your gelcoat. From what you've said earlier, the Treamaster was sort of stuck down with plain epoxy--and poorly at that (the "prepwork", as it were, seems pretty minimal, given the fact that the Treadmaster has uncovered the still-existing molded nonskid, which would conspire to prevent a good bond with the too-thin epoxy), and it looks like water has seeped in and stagnated beneath, where it's had time, heat, and the opportunity for chemical reaction with the gelcoat in those areas. It's a real shame to see such widespread damage caused by careless and unknowledgable work.
Now that you are aware of the problem, clearly you'll need to address it, but you need not do so all at once. I don't see any problem with fixing the areas you've already uncovered now, and leaving the remainder till next off-season. It's not likely to become appreciably worse; if it does, it may even make your future demolition that much easier. With some time under your belt, you can better plan the project so that it can be accomplished over the off-season, rather than trying to hurry through now, or, worse, giving up on the whole season to address it.
With time to formulate a good plan of attack for when the boat is next hauled, you'll be ahead of the game when you start in the fall. Assuming you plan to address the remaining areas then, I highly suggest that you get as much done as you can as soon after the boat is hauled as possible. The off-season seems like a long time when you haul out, but as we all know there are many weeks or months where you can't get much done (thanks to the weather), and spring and the prospect for the new season come quickly, seemingly out of nowhere.
You're faced with a significant job ahead, but it's acheivable within an off-season as long as you go about it efficiently. If you can get all the demolition done, and at least some of the fairing and other prep, you'll be much more able to properly take care of the finishing details and new paint come the nice springtime weather, giving you enough time to finish up before the season starts.
The good news is that if the worst of the cracking is all beneath the Treadmaster-d areas, you may find you don't need to consider the full encapsulation method of repair, since new nonskid is far more forgiving of minor crazing than high-gloss smooth areas would be. You'll still need to thoroughly grind and chip away the damaged gelcoat, and then refair the decks, but with new nonskid slated for most or all of these areas, I think you may find that you don't necessarily need to go with the full layer of fiberglass. Of course, this will ultimately depend on what you find as you get into the project, and possibly on more details of the deck that I am currently unware of.
It's an interesting project (am I sick????), and I look forward to following your progress.
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
-
dasein668
- Boateg
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:09 am
- Boat Name: Dasein
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton 668
- Location: Portland, Maine
- Contact:
Thanks for posting the pics. I agree that you probably don't need to worry too much about it in terms of short-term impact, so your plan sounds pretty good.
What a mess!
What a mess!
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
Tim and Nathan,
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
This really wasn't meant to turn into such a project, but you know how it happens; I think I should re-bed some of these fittings after 14 years, and gee might as well repaint the deck and cabin with most of the hardware coming off. That 40 year old coaming is looking pretty beat, better replace that now too, and maybe I should peek at that deck and treadmaster issue again.....Oh what a slippery slope, rebuild the boat all while doing a little re-bedding! Well, it has been a long time since the last major refit so its about due.
Next years project was going to be painting the topsides, but that may have to be in conjunction with the deck now, or I could put it off another year..
Thanks, I'll keep you updated.
Chris
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
This really wasn't meant to turn into such a project, but you know how it happens; I think I should re-bed some of these fittings after 14 years, and gee might as well repaint the deck and cabin with most of the hardware coming off. That 40 year old coaming is looking pretty beat, better replace that now too, and maybe I should peek at that deck and treadmaster issue again.....Oh what a slippery slope, rebuild the boat all while doing a little re-bedding! Well, it has been a long time since the last major refit so its about due.
Next years project was going to be painting the topsides, but that may have to be in conjunction with the deck now, or I could put it off another year..
Thanks, I'll keep you updated.
Chris