Who's Boat is it Anyway

[Scout]

If you sell a boat (Connecticut in this case) seven years ago, and a boat yard from another state calls and says you owe five years storage fees for your old boat that someone else, (in this case) kept in their yard, have any rights to claim you owe them. I think not, but just wondering??

[Tim]

That sounds pretty clear cut to me, but I hope you have solid documentation and proof of the sale of the boat. Assuming you do, it seems clear that you have no liability for storage charges imposed after the sale date.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Certainly the yard is going to go after the "owner" based on registration or documentation. If the latest owner never filed-- most likely to avoid taxes, you have to be ready to prove you sold the boat. Of course the registration and documentation have most certainly lapsed which you might use to bolster your case-- although you'll likely need more proof.

[Figment]

The law and common sense don't generally go hand-in-hand, but wouldn't common sense require them to produce some sort of storage/mooring agreement with your signature?

[Ceasar Choppy]

I know enough to be dangerous here, but I believe the yard usually goes after "the boat" under maritime law since maritime law allows a lien to be placed on the boat-- and theoretically the owner will want to get it out of hock. State law may also have something to say about this.

Contract law may apply here, but even if it did, the fact that there was nothing signed doesn't mean there is no contract. That said, if you can prove you aren't a party to the contract (i.e. you didn't own the boat, had no knowledge or reasonable expectation of same), then I don't think you have a problem.

Of course the situation might be different if you still hold the title because the new owner was paying off the boat in installments like what recently happened to a friend of mine.

[jollyboat]

Boatyards work with boat owners in very much the same way landlords work with rental tenants. The agreements are between the 'boat owner' and the boat yard. The 'boat yard' operates very much the same way a 'trailer park' operates or a 'storage facility'. People 'rent' space for their (x) and pay for services - period. In the example that SCOUT has brought up is the same as a landlord who has sold a property and now trying to collect rent from a new tenant who has moved into the building. That would never fly. Also in debt collections of this matter, it falls under the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act, 15 USC 1692g, Section 809 (b) in validating debts. In a nut shell if a debt cannot be validated such to the extent that the debt cannot be substanciated in a court of law, the debt cannot be collected on. This statute also covers areas of reporting debts to credit agentcies and the abilities of the collector to contact the 'debtee' This is also covered in Federal Law PL 95-109, Subsection 805 (a)(1) 15 US Code ss1692c(a)(1)
Which basically says that a creditor can contact your residence and employer if you do in fact 'owe'. Now don't get me wrong - sailmakers are not lawyers and I am not claiming to be one, (yet) but if I had to hedge my bets I would favor the 'new boat owner'. It is it very difficult to attach leans to property that have changed owners after the fact. In theroy it is no longer the 'same property'.

[richfriend]

I'm not sure I have the timing down on these transactions, so in the usual lawyerly fashion I will ask some questions.

Is the boat yard claiming storage fees for the time prior to seven years ago, or is it for part of the time after you sold the boat?

If it is for old fees (10 years ago or such), the claim, even under contract, they may be barred by whatever the state statute of limitations is. In addition, if you were a purchaser in due course and were not noticed of the storage lien (they would have had to record it or do a UCC filing to give you notice), then you should have no liability for the debt.

If it is for fees that were incurred after you sold the boat, then whether or not the new owner ever registered the boat or changed the title, you would not be responsible for any such debt. You should be prepared however to prove that you sold the boat. A copy of a bill of sale, copy of payment, an affidavit from anyone present at the transaction will all help you substantiate your case.

You should be aware that most all of the maritime states have specific statutes regarding boat storage and marina fees (warfage, hauling, drydock etc). In RI after a demand letter is sent and is unpaid, a lien on the property (boat) automatically attaches without further action and the marina can sell the boat at a properly noticed public auction to recover all or part of the debt.

I find the great thing in this world is not so much where we stand,
as in what direction we are moving: To reach the port of heaven, we
must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it - but we
must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor.
- Oliver Wendel Holmes

[jollyboat]

I disagree with RICHFRIEND. Sorry, but the most leverage that most yards have over an owner is physically having the boat in their yard. Even with past yard bills due, unless the customer has, signed a contract with implications of the yard, making claim to a customers property after it has either been abandoned by the customer or the customer has failed to pay 'reasonable yard fees' that can be backed as 'agree to' in a contract, a yard cannot sell your boat - especially if the owner, maintains the registration of the vessel as current. So that is a fight right there. Secondly, boat yards do not fall under 'maritime law' per say - maybe 'shipyards' do but for small yards handling boats like Invictas or Tritons - I don't think so. Anyway, most states do not have 'titles' for boats - way to expensive and boats are basically the last of the wild west when it comes to Big Brother, taxing, controlling, ect, ect, - Basically, if an owner can get their boat out of a yard without paying the bill - well the yard is screwed. Trying to collect money on non-tangables - like "time" for example is pretty much impossible - again - its like a rental tenant not paying the rent and then leaving - the landlord is screwed.

[richfriend]

Here is the CT statute dealing with "abandond" vessels.
Sec. 15-140c. Abandonment of vessel.
(a) No person shall abandon any vessel on the waters of this state or upon property other than his own without the consent of the owner thereof. For the purposes of this section, a vessel shall be presumed to be abandoned if left on the waters of this state not moored, anchored or made fast to the shore and unattended for a period greater than twenty-four hours, or left upon property other than his own without the consent of said property owner for a period greater than twenty-four hours. The last owner of record of a vessel at the time it was abandoned shall be presumed to be the person who abandoned the same or caused or procured its abandonment.

(b) Any officer authorized to enforce the provisions of this chapter upon discovery of any vessel apparently abandoned, whether situated on or out of the waters of the state, may take such vessel into his custody and may cause the same to be taken to and stored in a suitable place. There shall be no liability attached to such officer for any damages to such vessel while in his custody. All charges necessarily incurred by such officer in the performance of such duty shall be a lien upon such vessel. The owner or keeper of any marina or other place where such vessel is stored shall have a lien upon the same for his storage charges and if such vessel has been stored for a period of not less than sixty days, such owner or keeper may sell the same for storage charges owed thereon, provided a notice of intent to sell shall be sent to the Commissioner of Environmental Protection, the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles, Commissioner of Transportation and the owner of such vessel, if known, five days before the sale of such vessel. If the owner is unknown, such sale shall be advertised in a newspaper published or having a circulation in the town where such marina or other place is located three times, commencing at least five days before the sale. The proceeds of such sale, after deducting the amount due such marina owner or keeper and all expenses of the officer who placed such vessel in storage, shall be paid to the owner of such vessel or his legal representatives, if claimed by him or them at any time within one year from the date of such sale. If such balance is not claimed within said period, it shall escheat to the state.

and here is RI's

34-46-3 Lien.
(a) Lien created. A facility operator has a lien on a vessel stored at that facility for storage charges, labor, or other charges and for expenses reasonably incurred in the sale of that vessel under the provisions of this chapter.

(b) Exclusion. This chapter does not create a lien on a documented vessel subject to a preferred ship mortgage or other preferred maritime lien pursuant to 46 U.S.C. ? 31301 et seq.

34-46-5 Enforcement of lien.
A facility operator may enforce a lien created by this chapter only if the vessel owner has been notified of the lien as required by ? 34-46-4.

(1) Sale - Use of proceeds. (i) If a vessel owner is in default for a period of more than ninety (90) days, a facility operator may enforce a lien by selling the stored vessel at a commercially reasonable public sale for cash. As used in this section, "commercially reasonable" shall have the same meaning as in the Uniform Commercial Code. The proceeds of the sale shall be applied in the following order:

(A) To the reasonable expenses of the sale incurred by the facility operator including, but not limited to, reasonable attorneys' fees, legal expenses and expenses of advertisement;

(B) To the satisfaction of the lien created by this chapter;

(C) To the satisfaction of all other liens on the vessel held by all lienholders of record to be paid in the order of priority; and

(D) To the extent that the proceeds of sale exceed the sum of the foregoing, the surplus must be paid by the facility operator to the vessel owner.

(ii) If proceeds of the sale are not sufficient to satisfy the vessel owner's outstanding obligations to the facility operator or any lienholder of record, the vessel owner remains liable to the facility operator and/or lienholder for the deficiency.

(2) Advertisement - Notice of default. Before conducting a sale under this section, the facility operator shall:

(i) Personally serve a notice of default on the vessel owner if the vessel owner is a Rhode Island resident. If the vessel owner is not a Rhode Island resident, notice shall be in accordance with subdivision (7). The facility operator shall provide a copy of the notice to each lienholder of record. The notice must include:

(A) A statement that the vessel is subject to a lien held by the facility operator;

(B) A statement of the facility operator's claim indicating the charges due on the date of the notice, the amount of any additional charges that will or may become due before the date of sale, and the date those additional charges will become due;

(C) A demand for payment of the charges due within a specified time not less than forty (40) days after the date the notice is delivered to the vessel owner;

(D) A statement that unless the claim is paid within the time stated the vessel will be sold, specifying the time and place of the sale; and

(E) The name, street address, and telephone number of the facility operator, or the facility operator's designated agent, whom the vessel owner may contact to respond to the notice;

(ii) After the expiration of the forty (40) day period set forth in subdivision (2)(i)(C), the facility operator shall publish an advertisement of the sale once a week for two (2) consecutive weeks in a newspaper of general circulation in the area where the sale is to be held and of general circulation in the state. The advertisement must include a general description of the vessel, the name of the vessel owner, and the date, time and place of the sale. The date of the sale must be more than fifteen (15) days after the date the first advertisement of the sale is published.

(3) Location of sale. A sale under this chapter must be held at the facility or at the nearest suitable location.

(4) Purchasers. A purchaser of a vessel sold at a sale pursuant to this chapter takes the vessel free and clear of any rights of persons against whom the lien was valid and all other lienholders of record.

(5) Facility operator liability. If the facility operator complies with the provisions of this chapter, the facility operator's liability is as follows:

(i) To a lienholder of record, the facility operator's liability is limited to payment from the net proceeds received from the sale of the vessel pursuant to ? 34-46-5; and

(ii) To the vessel owner, the facility operator's liability is limited to the net proceeds received from the sale of the vessel after payment in full of all lienholders of record pursuant to this section.

(6) Denying access to storage facility. A facility operator may deny a vessel owner who has been notified under ? 34-46-4 access to the storage facility, except that the vessel owner is entitled to access to the facility during normal business hours for the purpose of satisfying the lien or viewing and verifying the condition of the vessel.

(7) Notices. Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (2)(i), all notices required by this chapter must be sent by registered or certified mail, return receipt requested. Notices sent to a facility operator must be sent to the facility operator's business address or to the address of the facility operator's designated representative. Notices to a vessel owner must be sent to the vessel owner at the vessel owner's last known address. Notices to a lienholder of record must be sent to the address of the lienholder as provided in the public filings that serve to perfect the lienholder's interest in the vessel. Notices are considered delivered on the date the return receipt is signed or, if the notice is undeliverable, the date the post office last attempts to deliver the notice.

As you can read, both of these States provide for the creation of a lien on the vessel, and for the sale of the vessel to satisfy that lien after proper notice.

I am currently the owner (clear title from a storage lien auction) of an Ericson 30 that I purchased at auction. Even if the owner were to come in a yard and remove a vessel with a lien to some other location, a purchaser at auction could obtain title and take posession of the vessel with the assistance of a constable or sheriff.

[jollyboat]

Richfriend, thank you for posting that information. It pretty much covers what I think we were both getting at. There may be a few yawns out there in concern to this leagal, mumbo jumbo on a classic yacht forum - but I love it. Notice the part about the yards having the abilitiy to keep owners out the yard unless they are there with the intent to pay the bill. That pretty much goes hand in hand with what I saying before in concern to a boats being removed from a yard where the owner owes money. It happpens. Trying to collect without a boat and without a signed contract is nearly impossible. All the same - thank you for posting the information as it is very informative. I love it when you guys are challenged, take the bull by the horns and come up with the goods. In the event of stealing your boat from a yard, please see my previous postings on the leagal issues of debt collection claims after the fact.

[Tim]

I am closing this thread because without sufficient information about the actual situation at hand (which we don't have), the answers are going to tend to be overly laden with conjecture and what is clearly trending towards unpleasant attitudes. Some potentially useful things have been said above, and will remain for future perusal, but there's little to be gained by allowing additional postings at this time.

I'd further suggest that any matters dealing with intricate legal minutiae be dealt with anywhere else online but here. Thanks for your consideration.