Hiring a marine surveyor

[JonnyBoats]

If I am not mistaken Tim, you sometimes work as a marine surveyor when not rebuilding boats (smile).

Would you be willing to share some thoughts as to when a survey is appropriate, what one might cost, and how to go about finding a good surveyor?

In particular I am thing in terms of some of the ?fixer upper? or basket case boats on eBay. If one is bidding on a used Triton for example, is it worth the cost of a survey if the price is a grand or two?

[Tim]

I believe that a survey is worthwhile on any "normal" boat purchase. By "normal", I mean the usual boat in average condition, regardless of age, that falls short of actually being a project boat. For most buyers, the survey is worthwhile because the typical buyer neither has the skills, knowledge, nor inclination to worry about structural problems, systems installations, and the like. The typical buyer just wants to go boating--and most buyers want a safe boat that isn't going to suddenly turn into a nightmare or problems and costs (since most boat owners don't actually do that much of their own work).

The value of a survey is locating the details that most observers miss. I have inspected many boats and discovered pages of problems, to the genuine surprise of the excited potential buyer. This isn't the nit-picky stuff like double clamps (which are only required in one or two specific instances, by the way--like exhaust hoses and fuel fill hoses) or broken hinges; I'm talking about serious structural problems and inadequate systems. While it's amazing to me that someone could be blind to these sorts of significant problems, of course I realize that because I am hired to look for problems, I am therefore more apt to find them.

Surveyors aren't God, and don't have Xray vision, and don't know anything beyond that which is able to be observed. Some surveyors would have you believe otherwise, and I don't even want to get started on that topic. Surveyors play a minor role in the entire process, and to pretend for a second that a surveyor is indispensable or infalliable is just ridiculous. Frankly, the only reason many buyers or owners ever have a survey is because their bank or insurance company requires it.

That said, there is definitely value in having an independent, unbiased (we hope) observer look things over; that second pair of eyes usually finds things that the buyer (who may not be unbiased in their excitement) would miss. Obviously, the experience of looking at hundreds of boats trains one to look for certain things, which is the true value of a surveyor, I think. Surveyors also look in the places that buyers rarely do; I'm amazed at the nonchalance with which brokers show boats, and potential buyers look. How can you decide whether to buy any boat with a 5-10 minute "inspection" with a glib broker? No one seems to even open bilge panels or lockers, or truly look over the engine or fuel tank. So when I (or another surveyor) show(s) up and find 37 problems, buyers are frequently amazed and saddened.

So, regardless of the boat cost, I think it makes sense to hire a surveyor to inspect any boat in most cases.

There are exceptions. When talking about true project boats--gut and replace jobs--there is little value to a survey from my way of thinking. The person buying such a boat must be knowledgable and somewhat experienced, and if their plans are to rebuild and replace everything, why would they need to know that such-and-such isn't up to snuff? Unfortunately, people buying dirt-cheap boats that qualify as projects don't always realize the extent of the project they're getting into; some people see only the cheap price and figure they're going to get a great boat for small money. We all know that it doesn't work that way, but they don't.

I feel the price of the transaction has less to do with whether to hire a surveyor than does the inclinations and intentions of the buyer. A survey on that $1000 Triton might be called for if the buyer was one of those aforementioned bargain hunters who thought they were buying something usable. But for the informed buyer, whose intentions include rebuilding and such, I see no reason for a survey. It's not even like the boat will be financable or insurable, so there's no reason from that perspective either.

How do you find a good surveyor? I'd like to think that personal recommendations are the best. Steer clear of the person that the broker sends you to. There are too many "cozy" relationships out there. Frankly, I think that the surveyors that the brokers hate are the best, because it probably means that those surveyors retain their independence and tell the truth. Often, the truth hurts, and brokers don't like having their sales soured, or the selling price reduced. I say, "tough nugs." Unless the broker is the one paying me, I could care less what they think. A surveyors allegiance can only be to the actual client, which is for whom they work exclusively.

Obviously, some marine markets attract more surveyors than others, and the more surveyors there are, the more chance there is that you might run into a real bozo. The smaller the market, I think, the better the surveyors must be, as there isn't enough business to support sleazebags or inadequacy. Anyone can be a marine surveyor, but not everyone can survive for long.

I think a good surveyor should pay attention to the client and their needs/skills/desires, etc., and should be able to frame the findings of the survey in a real-world sort of practical way. A good surveyor should never lose sight of the forest for the trees, and has to keep things in perspective. Quoting line upon line of boring chapter-and-verse from some voluntary installation standard that probably didn't even apply when the boat was built may seem impressive to some people, but it's frankly unhelpful and unnecessary, and doesn't really give the true picture. Buyers want to know what they're buying, and want to avoid the major problems (or the 200 little problems that add up to a major one). No one cares what the specifications of a hose clamp should be, or how many cubic feet of air move through a compartment. I think most people want to know that the boat is safe and isn't going to fold in half on the 3,465th wave the boat punches through, and that the fuel system isn't going to purge all over the bilge or cause a fire, and that the engine works and the rig will stay pointing upwards. If not, then they want to know what needs to be done, and whether it's something they can (or want to) deal with.

People expect too much of surveyors (reference my "anti-God and no xray vision" statements above). A surveyor can only tell so much about any boat. It's easy to miss things, frankly. Any surveyor who says otherwise...well, decorum prevents me from finishing that sentence. We can't see inside that laminate or core any more than you can, and for the people who expect absolutes out of a surveyor...well, don't!

Still, a surveyor is the best tool available to try and make sense out of one boat or another. I think in most cases the surveyor's fee is well worth it, but don't expect what all the blithe sailing mags tell you, that "any good surveyor will save you at least the cost of the survey". That's ridiculous; hiring a surveyor isn't about saving money: it's about finding out what you're buying. In many cases, surveyors' recommendations do lead to a renegotiation of the price, but that's not the point. If you're lucky, the surveyor will confirm that the boat is all you, the buyer, thought it was, and that no additional work is required. Isn't that really what a buyer wants?

My own survey rates vary depending on size and type of boat, from $13/ft to $22/ft.

[JonnyBoats]

Thank you Tim, that is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Am I correct in assuming that the complexity of the systems aboard is the primary factor in setting the rate? In other words it there were two Alberg 30s and the first one had never been upgraded and the original Atomic 4 was shot it would be an easier survey than a boat with watermaker, refrigeration, ?newer? diesel etc.

Quite frankly, for larger boats your rates seem like an extreme bargain. For something like a Hinkley Bermuda 40 at $22/ft that is only $880! A boat like that can?t be easy to do and must take some time. Heck just unbagging a spinnaker, laying it out on the lawn for inspection, then rebagging it must take awhile.

[Tim]

My rates are based only on length. Because complexity tends to increase with larger boats, the per-foot price goes up too. Actually, a B-40 would only be charged at $16/foot under my current rate structure. (That seems ridiculous, upon reflection...time to look at the rates and modify accordingly.)

The hypothetical Alberg 30s would cost the same, regardless of equipment or condition. I might enjoy surveying one of them better than the other, as the simpler one would take less time. Boats in good condition require less time on my end as well, as noting and then reporting on deficiencies and other findings takes more time than reporting a clean bill of health.

Likewise, powerboats tend to be more complex than sailboats of similar size. So my powerboat rates are higher than sail.

For what it's worth, I rarely unbag sails, unless the client is there and really wants to. I tell people to bring sails to a sailmaker if they want a true opinion; all I can do is comment on general condition, which I can tell from inspecting sails inside the bag. In other words: the sail is new, or very worn, or has some life left, etc. To do otherwise is a waste of time for all concerned, for little actual gain. Sails are what they are, and it's beyond the scope of my inspection to look beyond the sails' general existence and condition.

By the way, anything I might comment upon about surveying on this forum is written by "Tim the boat guy", not "Tim the surveyor". These two people are never seen in the same place at the same time...are they both the same? No one knows for sure...

[dasein668]

Alert: Seriously Off Topic:

"tough nugs."

Is that really how one would spell that???

End Seriously Off Topic Alert

[dasein668]

By the way, anything I might comment upon about surveying on this forum is written by "Tim the boat guy", not "Tim the surveyor". These two people are never seen in the same place at the same time...are they both the same? No one knows for sure...

Have you been talking to my wife recently? Sheesh. Thinly veiled legal disclaimer!!!!

[Figment]

Likewise, powerboats tend to be more complex than sailboats of similar size. So my powerboat rates are higher than sail.

That's interesting. Is that a common thing among surveyors?

My perception has always been the other way around...... A 30' sailboat starts as a 30' powerboat, then comes the added complexity of having a rig strapped to the roof and ballast bolted to the belly.
Perhaps this is because I grew up on powerboats and came to sailing later.

[Tim]

Well, for example, most 30' powerboats have water heaters, generators, often have twin engines, twin rudders, twin shafts, twin fuel tanks, more electrical gear, AC power, dual control stations, larger interiors, showers, larger heads, double cabins...so on and so forth. Also, a typical 30' powerboat with, say, 12-13' beam will often be 30-50% larger in overall size than a regular 30' sailboat of 9-10' beam.

The 30' sailboats I see are, in general, pretty basic, and lack the complex water systems, additional gear, obviously have only one simple engine, if that, almost never have generators or complex AC systems, and so forth. This is the stuff that takes a long time to inspect, and a long time to report. Maybe it's just me, but rigging and sailing gear is second nature to inspect and comment upon. I suppose that's a reflection of my own background in sail.

My early experience showed that it takes more time to survey a powerboat than a sailboat, and takes longer to report. Therefore, the size-based price changes are shifted accordingly. This reflects more the general breakdown of where the complexity levels change for sail or power (30' sailboats are usually pretty simple, systems-wise, while 30' powerboats are starting to be virtually as complex as 40-footers).

My rate sheet shows how the length breakdowns occur; there is some overlap as well. For example, a 35' sailboat and 35' powerboat cost the same, as it turns out. Note that my rates also reflect what makes it worth it for me to do the job in the first place. In the end, all I did was guess at appropriate rates. I do better on some than others. So is life.

For what it's worth, the core of my business is sailboats 35' and under. It's what I like and know the best--and also happens to be the largest single group of boat types in my area.

Alert: Seriously Off Topic:

Tim wrote:
"tough nugs."


Is that really how one would spell that???

End Seriously Off Topic Alert

Having never actually written the phrase before, it made sense to me. But I'm open to suggestions!

[dasein668]

Alert: Seriously Off Topic:

Tim wrote:
"tough nugs."


Is that really how one would spell that???

End Seriously Off Topic Alert

Having never actually written the phrase before, it made sense to me. But I'm open to suggestions!

I always thought it was"noogies" and as such would probably be shortened to noogs, n'est pas?

[Rachel]

I figured it was a combo of "tough nuts" and "tough noogies" that covered all the bases :-)

Rachel