Fuel Tank questions

[Peter]

The picture above is the fuel tank area in my Vega. (It looks wet because I just finished washing out the area before taking the picture. Everything is held up with zip ties and lines as the galley bulkheads are removed.)

The tank is a 7 gallon copper unit originally used for the gas engine, but now used for Diesel. The outlet is at the top of the tank and has a copper line to a glass sediment bowl and shut-off valve. Up to this point it looks like the original stuff. From the rubber hose onward is newer, including a filter with a replaceable cartridge on a see-thru bowl with a drain plug at the bottom.
The filler neck is in the middle/top of the tank, and the vent and retirn line share a "tee" fitting at the aft end of the tank top.
The tank sits up out of the way in the starboard cockpit locker, and is a gravity feed to the engine.

I plan to remove the tank and flush it out, plus check all the connections and re-bed the filler cap.

Would it be wise to get rid of the glass sediment bowl / copper tubing setup? My thoughts are to put a shutoff valve at the top of the tank, and connect it directly to the large filter unit with an approved flexible line.

Is one filter enough?

Is a copper tank "a good thing"?

[Tim]

Are you looking to basically clean up and simplify your system? If so, your proposed changes make sense, though they're probably not "required" unless any of the components are in questionable condition.

Your engine already has a secondary filter installed, right on the engine. This, combined with the remote primary filter, is adequate filtration, unless you want to go crazy and add dual primary filters in parallel so that one can be shut down and serviced while continuing to run fuel through the second. (Overkill for sure.)

Filtration is everything with diesel fuel, so installing a nice, easily-serviced, quality primary fuel filter is a good idea. Something like the Racor 500FG turbine-type filter is a premium choice; the initial cost is offset by the fact that the replacement elements are far less expensive than the cartridge type filter elements used in other Racors and the filter setup that seems to be currently installed in your boat.

As to the glass sediment bowl: I don't see any reason to keep it. Your big filter will take care of water separation, and there's no real benefit to that tiny old bowl. There's nothing wrong with the copper line, but also no reason not to replace the whole length with the correct fuel hose. A 1/4 turn shutuff right at the tank outlet (assuming it's easily accessed) is a good idea.

From here, the copper tank seems to be in great condition. Is there any way you can view the side that's closest to the hull, just to make sure there are no signs of corrosion in that more confined area? If you haven't already, add some Biobor to the fuel in the tank, using the "shock" treatment amount listed on the container. (For your tank, it'll be a near infinitesimal amount.)

[Todd Dunn]

I redid my fuel system a couple of years ago. I would suggest the following.

1. Get rid of the copper tubing and replace all the fuel lines with USCG approved A-1 fuel line.

2. Replace both the sediment bowl and the Perko spin-on filter with a Racor 500MA (note - the Racor 500FP that Tim suggests is not marine UL rated. It will not pass your next insurance survey. The same applies to the sediment bowl you now have.)

3. A ball valve type shut-off valve (1/4 turn) at the tank is a good idea.

Now on to the other systems. First, I see what looks like a gate valve on a thru-hull fitting. Get rid of that and install a real sea cock with either a ball valve or a cone-in-cone valve. That way you can tell at a glance when the valve is open. Ball valves are also much less prone to failure than gate valves.

What are the heater hoses that go up beside the cockpit going to? If they aren't carrying engine coolant, you really ought to upgrade them to a marine rated, wire reinforced hose.

Finally, what would I have to do to get you to come and make my engine room look that good :)

[Peter]

Thanks, Guys.

I decided to pull the tank today. It only took an hour as that side of the cabin is bare. The longest part of the job was pumping the tank into a jerry can with my piddling little hand pump.

The tank appears to be in good serviceable condition. The picture shows everything cleaned up and a new bonding wire installed. (The valve shown was off the old setup and will not be used ... I'll put in the recommended ball valve). All the seams are tight, and the inside is now sediment-free. I'll also replace the 2" filler hose.


The filter is made by C.A.V. (English) and has a good-sized filter unit plus a heavy glass water trap with drain. I'm going to run it for now as I can get replacement cartridges at the local auto parts store for less than $10. I'll look at new Racors at re-fit time next winter.

Todd: Now on to the other systems. First, I see what looks like a gate valve on a thru-hull fitting. Get rid of that and install a real sea cock ...

The boat has five wonderful thru-hulls with nice little gate valves that will be joining the 'Silent Sailor' et al on the scrap pile next winter. Meantime, I've cleaned them up, lubed them, and put on a little Tabasco Sauce to help loosen them come removal time. Smells better than Diesel, although I seem to be getting used to it.

Todd: What are the heater hoses that go up beside the cockpit going to?

Those go up to my home-made vented loop, also destined for the scrap pile at re-fit time, to be replaced by the 'real thing' made by Groco.


Tim: Thanks for the tip on the secondary filter. I'll replace it now while I have all this stuff apart. I'll also start using Biobor. Sounds like a good idea.

The more I tear into this boat the happier I am with the quality of materials and workmanship used in the construction, and the way common sense was used in the design. Apart from the Diesel conversion and the mast beam reinforcement, she's pretty well in her original state.

[Tim]

2. Replace both the sediment bowl and the Perko spin-on filter with a Racor 500MA (note - the Racor 500FP that Tim suggests is not marine UL rated. It will not pass your next insurance survey. The same applies to the sediment bowl you now have.)

The only difference between the MA units and the FG units is that the see-through bowl is shielded (with metal) on the MA-arguably a better choice, but by no means required in a diesel installation. The glass bowl on the 500FG is suitable for use with diesel installation. Plastic bowls should not be used in an engine compartment because of the supposed danger of heat-related damage. That's why the glass see-through bowl on the FG makes it such a good choice. The MA would also be a good choice, but there's no requirement that dictates its use. A survey that indicated such would be incorrect, though well-intentioned.

Both of these excellent filters meet all applicable installation standards and requirements for diesel engines.

[bcooke]

Now on to the other systems...

This is why I post pictures of my boat sparingly. It just opens up too much to this highly critical audience :-)

That sure is a cute little fuel tank you have there. I suspect your fuel burn is a little less than my A4. I hope you are planning to keep the tank polished! It just wouldn't look right if you let it go green.

-Britton

[Peter]

A highly critical audience is most welcome. I'm happy when someone points out a problem I may have missed, or an alternate solution to a problem. That's why I post pictures. It's amazing what small details someone will spot!

As for keeping the tank polished, well, ... it's out of sight when the boat is back together, so nobody will know ;-)

[Todd Dunn]

I am sticking by my guns. THe Racor 500MA is marine UL rated and the 500FP is not. ABYC reccommendations on fuel systems call for all marine UL rated components. Yes I know that the ABYC reccommendations are just that. However, more and more insurance companies are demanding that the boats they insure meet ABYC, particularly for fuel systems.

I ran into this a couple of years ago when I had an insurance survcey. The survey went fine, but when the insurance company got the pictures of my fuel system they decreed that my perfectly servicable 500FP had to go. I argued, but they said it wasn't acceptable. I checked out the ratings and found the stuff about the marine UL ratings.

If you check around, you will find that the places like Hamilton Marine no longer carry the 500 FP because it isn't Marine UL rated and the fishermen can't use it.

That said, the FP is a fine filter and is the same as the MA except for the metal bowl. You can retrofit a metal bowl to an FP, but it still won't meet the ABYC spec. On top of that, the Racor 500 FP because it is not marine UL rated, will not pass a rigosous Coast Guard inspection, even when retrofitted with a metal bowl.

[Tim]

Here is the exact quote from the ABYC standards, located at the beginning of H-33.9, Fuel Filters, Strainers, and Water Separators:

NOTE: Filters, separators, and strainers meeting the requirement of ANSI/UL 1105, "Marine Use Filters and Separators", comply with these requirements.

Following this note, ABYC H-33.9 goes on to list a number of modest requirements for meeting the ABYC standard for fuel filter installation.

I understand the confusion, but this statement merely indicates that if one does have a fuel filter labeled as meeting the quoted ANSI/UL standard, that it therefore meets all standards applicable to diesel fuel filters.

This is quite different from requiring that this particular ANSI/UL standard be met in order for the filter to meet the ABYC standard. The UL standard is NOT incorporated by reference anywhere in ABYC H-33.

ABYC standards are indeed the generally accepted list of so-called "requirements" for boat system installations, and for an insurance company to require compliance with ABYC installation standards is sound practice. Virtually all surveyors use ABYC as their guide, and therefore it follows that insurance companies, who rely upon the surveyors' opinions on installations, should do the same.

But in this case, I believe the insurance company was incorrect to deduce--through their own volition--from the wording of the ABYC standard for diesel fuel systems that filters needed to meet the UL standard. As it happens, ABYC doesn't even mention filter bowls of any sort in the standard. Now, if the insurance company chooses, for its own purposes, to require that particular UL standard for coverage, then they are within their right--as long as they don't incorrectly frame it as a requirement of the ABYC standards.

I'm not arguing against the UL standard, or the Racor 500MA. But it's necessary to correct the notion that somehow the non UL-listed 500FG, if that's indeed the case, is not accepted for use in marine diesel fuel systems.

Fishing and commercial boats are a different story and, as inspected vessels, are subject to an entirely different--and increasingly rigorous--set of requirements that may or may not have anything to do with pleasure craft..