Varnishing Question

[Jason K]

I've begun varnishing all exterior and some interior woodwork. I'm using the Epifanes Woodfinish gloss. For the coamings, I applied the first, heavily thinned coat with the coamings in an upright position. Is it OK to proceed in this manner or do the coamings need to be flat on their sides?

I'm reluctant to do that because the Epifanes requires 24 hours between coatings and I'd rather not spend every day of the next month varnishing. I assume that the 24 hours means that they should not be handled at all in that time, right?

[Tim]

Upright (vertical) is fine as long as you're not getting runs in the finish. That's tha main reason it's easier to do them horizontally, but otherwise you'll get the job done much faster if you can keep them vertical and avoid runs or sags in the varnish.

Vertical will also minimize dust settling in the finish. It all comes down to how effectively you can keep the sags out once you start using thicker coats, rather than the initial thinned coats.

[Todd Dunn]

As Tim says, having the wood horizontil makes it easier to avoid runs. However, I varnish my coamings with them on the boat (vertical) with no problems. Runs and sags are simply the product of poor brushing technique. Once you have done a bit of varnishing you won't have that problem any more.

Incidentally, why are using Epiphanes wood finish instead of real varnish? If you are using it to minimize sanding, you might as well use Cetol. The most important part of getting a good varnish finish is the sanding. Switch to real varnish like Captains for the build coats. When you get to the finish coat, switch over to Epifanes gloss VARNISH. That will give you a superior result. You should be able to achieve a glass smooth mirror finish after 6-7 coats.

This picture shows a model varnished only with Captains. The mounting board was also done with captains varnish except for the finish coat which is rubbed effect.

[Jason K]

Thanks Tim and Todd. I'm going to try to varnish vertically and if I'm getting runs or sags in later coats, I'll switch to horizontal.

Incidentally, why are using Epifanes wood finish instead of real varnish?

It was the only varnish that wasn't looted from the WalMart (kidding).

I did a fair amount of research into what I should use. The PO "varnished" the handrails with Cetol, and I don't like the look at all. However, the Epifanes Woodfinish Gloss has gotten pretty good reviews from what I could find online and in this forum, so I decided to give it a shot.

I'm not intimidated by the prospect of real varnish, and I may finish up with a traditional varnish if the Epifanes doesn't look OK. Of course, I'm not too far into the project yet and it would be easy to switch if there was reason enough to do so.

Anyone else have any opinions on the stuff? Nathan, how well has it held up on Dasein?

[Tim]

Nothing looks more like real varnish than real varnish.

There are no miracle shortcuts, as much as everyone wishes there were. Other products can look fine for what they are, but none will acheive the same look as traditional varnish. Now, I've seen traditional varnish that looks terrible, so the care and skill of the applicator is of course a factor no matter what the product. Not all varnishes are created equal, of course, either.

I think the Epifanes Wood Finish Gloss looks pretty decent and is quite convincing as a varnish replacement, but the lack of sanding is definitely noticeable up close, which can only be overcome by sanding. (In which case you might as well use regular varnish). If you can live with the minor imperfections caused by never sanding, then I think the WFG is a far superior alternative to Cetol.

You could theoretically use WFG to build up a base without sanding, then sand it flat and continue with regular varnish. But even this will provide a somewhat different appearance in the end, as the sanding between each coat when using regular varnish seems to help the overall appearance at the end in a way that a single sanding somehow does not, at least in my opinion. The coloration is different as well, though the color of the wood has as much effect as anything.

Longevity-wise, I'd opine that WFG is similar to a properly built-up varnish system. Both require regular maintenance, so there's no real advantage to one over the other.

I found WFG to be unsatisfying to apply, thanks to its weird texture, cloudy pigmentation, and unpleasant smell (more Cetol-like in character), whereas I love the smell of real varnish, and the pleasure of flowing it on. This is definitely a factor for me. Varnishing is a lot of work, and if you cannot enjoy the actual process, it loses its appeal in a hurry. A small thing, perhaps, but important to me.

[dasein668]

I find the difference in end product between WFG and ESV to be, well, miniscule. Is there one? Absolutely. Is it noticeable if you don't know that I used WFG? Absolutely not. But I sanded between coats after the first 4 on the WFG so I got a nice smooth finish. I've since switched to ESV for everything. As Tim says, the real varnish is much more satisfying to apply, and since its not like I didn't sand at all, there really wasn't much of a benefit, though I was able to get a base built pretty quickly. I used it for my coamings originally, when I was building up from no finish on raw wood.

The WFG holds up at least as well as the high-solids spar varnish.

As for color finished color, I would say there is a bit of a difference, but again, if you didn't know that I had used it, you probably wouldn't notice it as being different. It's just not that far off from the spar varnish when its finished.

I wouldn't hesitate to use the stuff alone or in conjunction with real varnish, but it wasn't a huge time/effort saver either. It is a good product though, and the closest thing to varnish that isn't varnish (and compatible with a traditonal varnish system). Again, I stand by the statement that unless you know that I used WFG on some of the wood, 99% of the people wouldn't know that it isn't varnish.

[MikeD]

I'm curious guys - what about "sealing" the raw wood with expoxy first, then varnishing?

[CharlieJ]

That'll work. That's what we've done on part of our brightwork on Tehani. Laura applied several coats of WEST, sanded well, then started varnishing. The parts that got the epoxy are holding up better than the straight varnish it seems.

The parts that got epoxied were the mast and boom and handrails in particular . The eyebrows and toe rails did not get epoxy and aren't doing quite as well. Of course the handrails HAD to have the epoxy- 45 year old wood has some flaws that need work *grin* Here's what it looked like when she finished the varnish work.

[Tim]

I've heard very mixed reviews on sealing wood with epoxy before varnishing. If you can get to all sides of the wood and ensure a quality seal with the epoxy, it might work as anticipated.

The problem arises if water can get behind the epoxy. If (when?) this happens, one will experience widespread failure of the varnish and epoxy. The same thing happens with plain paint or varnish, but at least it's easier to address in those instances. (I'd rather strip varnish than epoxy!) Never underestimate the power and insidiousness of water!

I think it can be done successfully, but I'm not sure there's really any benefit in the end. You still need the well-maintained varnish finish to protect the epoxy, and the epoxy will not make the varnish last any longer than it would otherwise.

For sealing and stabilizing very old wood before refinishing, it might make sense, as the old wood tends to be less receptive to varnish success, and often allows more moisture inside--moisture being the death toll for all varnish finishes. Epoxy sealing might help in this case, if one can ensure that all areas are thoroughly sealed. It'll also help build up a smooth surface faster, which in turn helps prevent water from getting into little crevices. So in this manner, it might factor in to keeping the varnish in better condition longer. But it doesn't remove the requirement to regularly maintain the varnish finish either.

So there are potential pros and cons to the epoxy choice. It's fine to try...just remember that it's not a miracle cure. Nothing is. I've not tried it myself as I don't see the real benefit, and am afraid of the pitfalls.

Varnish works all by its lonesome...it just requires a lot of upkeep and care.

[Eric]

Varnish works all by its lonesome...it just requires a lot of upkeep and care.

And if it doesn't make you happy
if it comes out kinda crappy
if your back starts in to ailing
paint 'er black and take 'er sailing

[Dan H]

Along the line of sanding varnish, what sandpaper works the best?
I have tried several types, but it all seems to loads up the paper pretty quick.
Maybe that's just the nature of the beast?
Dan

[Todd Dunn]

I like Norton 3x 320 grit. It doesn't gum up much at all. It does cost about 25% more than the usual stuff, but since it lasts 3-4 times as long it is definitely worth it. If you are having a real problem with varnish gumming up your paper, you may be sanding too soon after coating. I like to allow 48 hours if the temps drop below 50. You can get away with 16-20 hours if the temp is in the 70's.

[daysailor17]

I am a huge fan of the original. My dad used the cheapo stuff from Kitz & Pfeil interior varnish and he sanded and varnished every year. The poor Sitka Spruce spar didn't fair well.

I spent hours one winter in a heated shop taking it down to bare wood. It wsn't as bad as I thought it would be since the cheap stuff hardly penetrated at all. I built eight coats of Epiphanes varnish. After properly prepping all the surfaces, I used the wood finish or hi-build coats (reviewed in Woodenboat I believe). I found that it laid on like dog poop on a trowel and took just as long for the regular stuff to kick off. I was skeptical to begin with, so I went back to my favorite, the regular varnish from Epiphanes.

When you do all the labor and become "one with the varnish," I find the outcome to be so satisfying that I look forward to doing the varnish. I am a physical therapist and I find that properly setting up the job at the right level means I can get a sweet looking varnish job, not have to go to the gym to expend useless energy, and feel absolutely satisfied when I see the varnish look so good. I wait and find a nice atmosphere to do it off the boat. I find it worth the labor to remove all the parts and do it off season, so I can spend the time doing it right. Especially with a 32 foot tapered Sitka spruce spar, I try to avoid using the sander. But now with my own little 24' sloop, I am doing the same things with what little trim there is.

I have my friend who owns an autobody shop order a case of the commercial-grade 180 and 320 velcro-backed disks, I think they are Norton? Nice on the hands, or if your neurotic gadget guy like me, I have some gloves with the velcro sewn on so the velcro disks stay on the hands. Between coats 1-5 I use the 320 (or if dust or debris set up in the varnish),they really do well not gumming up. In between coats 5-8 (or 10 if you're sick like me) I really like a green kitchen scrubby! My friend at the autobody shop uses these great black scrubbies that are a much finer grade, it scuffs the sheen off the varnish really nicely between coats. I like the autobody guys, the cars they work on need even better prep then varnish, but man has he helped me get a beautiful coat on. That mast held up with doing a touch up coat every 2 years, with a 2-3 coat refresher every 5 years maybe.


After its all done, get her done and go sailing!! It isn't a piano after all.

E

[Dan H]

Thanks for the reply Todd. Since I'm in no rush to get done, the varnish dries about 2 weeks before sanding and applying the next coat.
I am using Interlux Schooner 96. Should I be using Epifanes varnish?
Also Charlie J, I was wondering why your teak looks so dark compared to mine? Was that from the epoxy? Or is that Mahogany?
Dan

[Peter]

Along the line of sanding varnish, what sandpaper works the best?
I have tried several types, but it all seems to loads up the paper pretty quick.

I use a wet/dry paper, using it wet. A finer grit cuts better, as the wet paper doesn't clog easily. Needless to say, let the piece dry in a warm place before the next coat of varnish.

[CharlieJ]

Dan- that's the original mahogany from when the boat was buiilt in 1961. That's why it's so dark.

[Jason K]

Thanks all for your advice. Given the underwhelming response to the WFG, I've decided to stop at the current six base coats and add a couple topcoats of Cetol.

Kidding. I did run out of WFG today, though, and will finish up with traditional varnish.

I am actually pretty pleased with the 6 coats of WFG. I'm also curious as to how the varnish (an Interlux product) will work out. One thing I like is that I'll be able to apply two coats in one day (the project must end Dec. 31 and I'm running out of time at the one coat a day pace). We'll see...

[Tim]

I've decided to stop at the current six base coats and add a couple topcoats of Cetol.

OK, you got me. The potential responses were already working their way to my fingertips when I read the next line and managed to calm down!

I'm also curious as to how the varnish (an Interlux product) will work out. One thing I like is that I'll be able to apply two coats in one day

Not "Jet Speed" varnish, I hope. WFG is a far better choice.

[Jason K]

Not "Jet Speed" varnish, I hope. WFG is a far better choice.

Nope, I picked up a can of the Schooner varnish.



I'm in a hurry, but not so much so that can't do the job right. I can recoat the Schooner in 12 hrs, as opposed to WFG's 24.

[Figment]

Remind me, is the Schooner a "traditional" oil-based varnish, or is it a poly-something formulation?

[Jason K]

My understanding is that it is traditional varnish with "the latest" UV protection.

[MikeD]

All this varnish talk - let's see some more pics for inspiration!

Apparently, Tim is so busy being "famous" and working on another boat shop that he's neglecting his boat duties - someone needs to post some nice boat pictures! :)

[Figment]

I ask because I've seen some unfortunate results when a traditional varnish is applied over a polyurethane, and vice-versa. The old and new technologies don't always work and play well together.

I've noticed that the guys who have the best brightwork are the guys who have used the same product year in and year out.

[Jason K]

Sheesh, Mike. Here I am, getting ready to leave the office for the night and go do some varnishing. I've got a brand new can of Schooner varnish and 400 grit sandpaper ready to go. I've finally convinced myself I can apply Schooner varnish to my sloop without sacrificing windward performance, and you come up with THAT post! Allright, I'll postpone varnishing tonight and do some more research. Now I'll get up before sunrise and probably do the same thing I was intending to do tonight (varnishing, not drinking).

[Figment]

I didn't mean to completely monkeywrench the works for ya.

Still, one night of homework is better than the days of labor that premature failure of the finish would require, eh?

[Tom Young]

posting here. I only have one possible tip. Maines wet spring last year pushed me into the hi-tec field of varnish.

I store Christmas outside and had to wood my spars last spring. The mizzen fit in the my shop so I got the jump on it early. Drying results were poor(not well heated) so I knew I would have to try another method with the big stick. The mizzen took forever-not acceptable.

Careful questioning of Rockport Marine ex-curent employees revealed their secret to the dozens of wooden spars they deal with.

After wooding and sanding(it had been close to 12 years since the spars were last wooded) I propped the big stick up on horses resting on the sail track area(I had removed all parts from the spar)

2 coats fast dry miracle varnish in the first day(thinned for deep penetration of the wood). Late morning coat was bone dry by mid afternoon. Next day, third coat fast dry-no sanding between coats. That afternoon, I sanded the oval shaped spar with a 6" orbital(this is trick in itself but easy IF you know what you're doing) and then voila, applied the first coat of real varnish-thinned to about 20%.

From there, an overnight dry(I got a spell of good weather) quick hand sand, roll and tip a coat, took about an hour and a half each day. I got a total of only 7 coats on before launch.

Of course the wonderful thing was replacing the handware etc. after about 5 coats. Each screw simply set in a bedding, winches bedded etc. The spar is now 45 years old and I've done my part to have it go another 10 to 15 years before this is done again.

I'm sold and used this method on the cabinsides as well this spring. This type of varnish has little protection BUT it speeds up the tedious nature of getting thinned varnish to fill the woods surface.

How well did it work? These surfaces while less than properly coated, held up perfectly and now are under cover and ready for a light sanding and two coats of maintainence varnish this spring. I have a new tool in the box now and plan to use it on all varnish projects. Of course, this spring the toerails have their turn.

[MikeD]

Ah pictures... Beautiful boat! I'm curious - did you snap that picture as you were falling overboard?

[Jason K]

Either that or the spectator boat is real aggressive.

For the record, regular varnish can be applied over WFG so long as the surface is properly sanded (as you would regular varnish). The WFG is a tung oil, alkyd varnish (which is normal) that has additives that alter the behavior of the varnish to accomodate no sanding.

Incidentaly, Epifanes (pronounced "Eppy Fah Knees," I learned two things today) is very straigtforward in pointing out that skipping the sanding is for convenience, not for looks. In fact, they recommend using regular varnish as final coats to maximize appearances.

So, back to my borrowed boat barn (AKA garage I have to give up before the 1st) to get the last few coats on. I finally remembered to bring my camera, so photos will follow soon.

[CharlieJ]

lol- Tom is rather renowned on CSBB for his photos of the hull and water. He leans way out, holds the camera at arms length and shoots. He IS NOT looking through the view finder when he does it.

I'm trying that myself next time I get a chance.

[rshowarth]

I am about to coat my teak slides for the cabin boards and cabin top cover.

Todd wrote:

Switch to real varnish like Captains for the build coats. When you get to the finish coat, switch over to Epifanes gloss VARNISH. That will give you a superior result. You should be able to achieve a glass smooth mirror finish after 6-7 coats.

1. I am planning on starting with an epoxy coat, as there are a number of old screw holes and cracks. I am hoping to fill the holes and provide some strength to hold the wood together.

2. Why start with Captains? Does it provide a different color? Different "depth"? Is it less expensive?

3. Why end with the Epifanes high gloss?

Thank you

[westsail42]

We have used Epiphanes high gloss on the heavily wooded topsides of our sloop. I havent seen any other varnish that gives such outstanding gloss that lasts as long as this stuff. Twelve original coats freshened with 2-3 coats a year lasted about 10 years in the Pacific Northwest.

The other's I have tested include Rivale traditional, Interlux Schooner, Bristol Finish (2-part) and Epiphanes 2-part (as a base), Epiphanes high-build. The latter two were top coated with Epiphanes high-gloss, which looked nice for a while, but the basecoat just didnt hold up. Bristol Finish was just a PITA to apply depsite it's rave reviews (dunno, maybe I got a bad batch). I think it's shelf life is pretty short.

One thing on the Epiphanes High Gloss. It started crazing in last five years or so. I talked to others who experienced the same thing. There is a suspicion that they may have changed the formulation.

I havent used it recently, though our sloop needs to be stripped and brought up again (I am trying not to think about it).

A neighbor used Captains varnish and it looked really nice with a single refresher coat every 6 months.


YMMV

[Jason K]

For what it's worth, I was pleased with the way my woodwork turned out. I, and I know this will prove excruciating for you purists out there, found the WFG to be satisfactory and the Schooner varnish I ended up with really wasn't that much of an improvement. Of course, I am certainly no master varnisher.

Here are a couple of shots. The different colors are due mostly to the different lighting.

[MikeD]

I'm already invested in Epiphanes, but I was curious if anyone has used tung oil on their brightwork, specifically the marine version of Waterlox?

[dasein668]

I haven't used tung oil though I've used quite a bit of Danish oil on interior trim pieces. It's definitely not as nice as varnish (I used rubbed effect on the interior) but it's a whole lot easier/faster.

On the exterior I would be concerned about how often you would need to reapply to keep the wood protected. But, again, no first-hand experience.

[Tim]

I don't know anything about Waterlox firsthand, though it touts itself as a tung oil base with additional ingredients like mineral spirits and a"special resin", details of which they do not disclose on the website. So Waterlox marine is really just varnish.

Traditional varnish like Epifanes is heavily comprised of tung oil, along with other ingredients. Tung oil, when used alone, is very varnish-like in appearance and personality, but can be wiped on. I have used it on interiors, and it looks nice if you wipe on enough coats. Wipe-on finish is nice and convenient, but the coats tend to be thin, so you need more coats to get that soft glow.

You could use plain 100% tung oil, but it's not UV stabilized, so you'd need to reapply often to protect the wood and maintain the finish. And, as mentioned above, wiping this on, while easy, produces very thin coats that don't provide a lot of protection. And you'll never get that deep, high-gloss finish with a wipe-on application.

I note that the Waterlox website compares their product to, among other things, polyurethane "varnish". I feel compelled to say that polyurethane is very different from traditional varnish, and doesn't belong on the exterior of a boat anyway. I'm picking nits, but I don't think clear polyurethane should ever be referred to as "varnish".

I got a chuckle out of this quote on the Waterlox website:

Translucent Coatings: Some popular teak finishes contain iron oxide pigments, almost like paint, which help shield the wood against UV rays, but they give the surface an orange hue, and hide the natural beauty of the wood.

Gee, I wonder which well-known product they're talking about here? hehe

[Figment]

I'm picking nits, but I don't think clear polyurethane should ever be referred to as "varnish".

I completely agree that we should call things what they are, but my 3year old system three "varnish" (actually a urethane product) application still fools everyone. :)

One of the guys down the dock was talking about using Waterlox this year, but I dunno if he actually went through with it or not. I'll probably see him tonight.

[dasein668]

Not to resurrect a dead thread or anything...

Just wanted to mention that I'm now working with the standard Waterlox stuff on a maple island top for the house. I've got two coats on and I think that I may just give up on the rubbed effect varnish for my interior woodwork. This stuff is giving a nice satiny sheen that has much more depth than Danish Oil. It's really quite nice. I think the gloss level is a bit higher than the Epifanes rubbed effect varnish though it doesn't appear to be building quite the same way. The stuff is quick and easy to apply?just like Danish Oil, and it really doesn't require sanding unless you get a bug or hair stuck in the finish.

No one will mistake this for varnish?it isn't. But it could be a nice interior finish. Not bad at first blush.

This picture doesn't really tell you too much, but it's something. I'll try to get a better one after the last coat is on.