Atomic 4 - Cooling system and acid flush

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Atomic 4 - Cooling system and acid flush

Post by Jason K »

My A4 is overheating. It has climbed above 180 degrees before I've shut the motor down. There is not a whole lot of water coming out of the exhaust. The problem does not lie with the impeller or the thermostat, so I believe I've either got kind some kind of blockage due to sedimentary build up (raw water cooled) or the water pump is failing.

I removed the filter to check flow from the water strainer and flow into the engine. There does not appear to be much water drawing into the engine; while I did not measure it, it only took a trickle from the hose to keep pace.

I intend to acid flush the engine to clear potential blockages, though I'm concerned the engine may overheat in the time it takes to draw 5 gallons. Do you think this is a water pump issue or a blockage issue?

Thanks.
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Post by bcooke »

There was a posting recently on the Moyer Marine A4 forum about an overheating problem you may want to check out. (Note: it is under the exhaust section)

I think you are on the right track with the troubleshooting. Did this problem come on suddenly or has it been getting worse for awhile? You changed the impeller so... Either you have bigger problems with the pump or the the block is getting plugged. You haven't changed out the thermostat recently and perhaps installed the 180 degree one instead of the 160 per chance? Just checking.

On the Moyer forum, the 'Guru' suggested several points where you could remove a hose and check for flow. I stole this from the forum posting,
you could also have a restriction building up within your cooling system, so you probably ought to remove the hoses at several locations within your system to see if flow is normal, starting with the hose leading to the inlet of the thermostat housing, then the hose leading to the front of the manifold, and finally the hose leading to the exhaust system.
When I stole the quote I also noticed that Don reports having problems with new impellers in old Oberdorfer pumps. Something about the pump casing being worn and the new impellers are too small to seal adequately. The fix was to soak the new impeller in Marvel Mystery Oil (A Moyer favorite) which will soften the rubber in the impeller slightly allowing it to stretch and make a better seal.

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Post by Figment »

I don't know that I'd classify "over 180" as overheating. how far over 180? 220, 240, that's overheating. I don't think you do any cylinder head damage until well beyond that, however.
180 is a fairly arbitrary mark on a no-thermostat engine anyway.

Even if you can't draw a full 5 gallons before you need to shut down, it's better than nothing, and I can't really think of any alternative. This may be something that you need to tackle one small step at a time.

The acid flush procedure is remarkably effective, actually. My personal take on it is to be very very conservative. In an old corroded block, I'd rather do three quick and mild flushes than one big harsh one that could potentially go too far. I could be talking out of my ass, however. I don't actually know of anyone who's damaged their engine with an acid flush.

This overheating thing is something that came on suddenly? usually if it's an issue of scale buildup, it comes on gradually.
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Post by bcooke »

180 is a fairly arbitrary mark on a no-thermostat engine anyway.
I forgot about the early model with no thermostat and I agree that going over 180 for short periods should be okay. I don't know how long I would do it for but a couple of minutes to acid flush sounds okay. What is the worst that can happen? If you damage the head then in the subsequent repair you can put the valve system in top form while you are at it. You would be improving things :-) I just read that Moyer sometimes installs aftermarket heads in their overhauls anyway. I will have to look into that for when I run out of projects...

I also agree that mild flushes might be better than one big wallup. If you dislodge too much grunge all at once you might create a bigger blockage that you can't blow out. Something like that just happened at the auto shop I am working at part time. An engine had a large buildup of gook in the oil system and an additive was used to "clean it up". With all the gook loosening up at the same time the oil pump screen got plugged so no oil got into the engine. Five minutes of highway driving resulted in a connecting rod blowing up. Pretty cool to see. But I digress...

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Post by Figment »

Figment wrote:Even if you can't draw a full 5 gallons before you need to shut down, it's better than nothing, and I can't really think of any alternative.
ok, so I thought of an alternative.
You could disconnect the coil wire and just let the starter crank the engine to operate the water pump. Too much of this will buy you a new starter, so I don't really reccommend it, but still it's there as an option if you just want to pull that last half-gallon or so.
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Post by Jason K »

Thanks guys. The engine got pretty close to 200 deg. a few weeks ago. I've changed the oil, cleaned the raw water filter, and flushed the engine with fresh water from a hose. When I restarted it Saturday morning, I ran it for half an hour and it only came up to 175 degrees. That afternoon, however, it came up to 185 degrees after about 15 minutes. That's when I took a look at the intake volume. I'm quite sure it needs an acid flush and plan to do that this weekend, or sooner. However, I'm curious about the water pump. Do they fail catastrophically or do they decline in performance?
Figment wrote:Even if you can't draw a full 5 gallons before you need to shut down, it's better than nothing, and I can't really think of any alternative. This may be something that you need to tackle one small step at a time.

The acid flush procedure is remarkably effective, actually. My personal take on it is to be very very conservative. In an old corroded block, I'd rather do three quick and mild flushes than one big harsh one that could potentially go too far.
Good points. I was going to use oxalic acid rather than the muriatic that Moyer calls for, though muriatic is also fairly mild.
Britton wrote:What is the worst that can happen? If you damage the head then in the subsequent repair you can put the valve system in top form while you are at it. You would be improving things
Better get that respirator fixed as soon as possible. :)
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Post by windrose »

Jason, if it is occuring sporadically the thermostat may be sticking. I'd drop a new one in it when you do the acid wash for good measure.

My temp gauge stopped working so I have to address that :-(. I did install a hatch in the cockpit sole this weekend.... why have I not done that sooner!? I no longer have to "mount the beast" and can get to everything easily on the back of the engine.

I might even think of seacocks now that I can get to the drains easily.;-)

BTW, what happened with #594?
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Post by bcooke »

Windrose wrote:I did install a hatch in the cockpit sole this weekend.... why have I not done that sooner!?
I have been singing the praises of my Bomar hatch for years but no one listens to me... Really though, they are great, probably one of the best things I have done to my boat. One could argue about whether anything else I have done to the boat is even an "improvement"...
I might even think of seacocks now that I can get to the drains easily.;-)
Good idea but expect some hecklers from the peanut gallery :-)
218 wrote:However, I'm curious about the water pump. Do they fail catastrophically or do they decline in performance?
Both ways I think. The impellers can just wear out causing a slow loss of volume or multiple fins can break off causing a large drop in volume. Then again, I guess the drive shaft could fail causing a total loss of volume.

If your freshwater flush was successful, even if only temporarily, then I think you are right in assuming the engine needs an acid flush. Probably couldn't hurt in any case and should be done every couple of years at least.

Does you engine even have a thermostat or one of those aftermarket t-fittings I see in the Moyer manual?
Better get that respirator fixed as soon as possible. :)
hehe... Good one. You might be right about that.
Figment wrote:You could disconnect the coil wire and just let the starter crank the engine
Taking out the spark plugs would make it even easier on the starter. I have done this many times after installing a brand new motor to get some oil flowing through it before its first start.

Last spring I made the mistake of using regular soft rubber (fuel grade) hose for the suction side of my raw water system. When I had problems with the strainer plugging up the first indication was that the hose collapsed on itself. Just one of those bonehead, "quick get it done" kind of things. I imagine you already checked for this.

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Post by Jason K »

Yup, no thermostat. I also don't really think it's the water pump. The plan it to disconnect the fittings where I can - at the cross over tube, the end of the manifold, and at the exhaust and pressure flush with fresh water. Then I'll reassemble the few removed pieces and acid flush. If that doesn't work, I'm going to remove the water jacket side plate and clean it thouroughly. If that doesn't work then this is a lame horse and I'm going to shoot it.
Windrose wrote:BTW, what happened with #594?
I stuck my reply on the original post:
http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0142#10142
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Post by bcooke »

If that doesn't work then this is a lame horse and I'm going to shoot it.
It will work.

Then she will sing so sweetly you will forget you ever had a problem with her. Funny thing about engines, once you show them some attention they find they like it and demand more and more. Eventually they will be satisfied and then you will have no problems for years and years as long as you remember throw a few tokens at them now and again.

I should remind everyone that this engine of yours has led a VERY long life (I think, I may be guessing here but old style suggests old age). It just might be time for this engine to seek some refuge at the spa. Winter isn't over yet and an overhaul kit is only a phone call away :-)

On a side note (read -tangent), I see Moyer sells overhauled A-4's for almost $5k with a $600 core. Could there be some profit in overhauling these motors in one's basement? I am a little cash fixated at the moment...

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Post by Jason K »

Winter isn't over yet and an overhaul kit is only a phone call away
Winter? I'm not real sure what that is, but I don't think I like the sound of it. Just to rub it in a bit, I went sailing yesterday. In a t-shirt.

I loathe the thought of pulling the engine and having it out for the duration that it would take me to fumble through a rebuild. Getting ahead of myself, though, 594 has a really good looking A4 that would nicely match my new cushions.......
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Post by Matt B. »

#218 wrote:
Winter isn't over yet and an overhaul kit is only a phone call away
Winter? I'm not real sure what that is, but I don't think I like the sound of it. Just to rub it in a bit, I went sailing yesterday. In a t-shirt.
I'd point out that whole "really big storm" thing and how we don't have to worry about those, but I just lost the shelter over my boat in a 60+ mph wind from a storm that rolled through, so maybe not so much. <G>
I loathe the thought of pulling the engine and having it out for the duration that it would take me to fumble through a rebuild. Getting ahead of myself, though, 594 has a really good looking A4 that would nicely match my new cushions.......
Not sure I want to know how the engine would match the cushions... anyway, sounds like one way or the other your best bet would be to pull the engine. If you get the new engine, you'll need to pull it anyway; if you don't, you'll need the overhaul eventually, and sooner is probably easier and less work than later.
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Post by windrose »

Piece of old impeller stuck in water jacket. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.;-)

Gotta go find out what happened to ol #594.

Ang
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Post by Jason K »

I'd point out that whole "really big storm" thing and how we don't have to worry about those
Ummm, well yeah there is that... :)
Not sure I want to know how the engine would match the cushions
Trying to get away from the whole rust and seething malevolence theme.

sounds like one way or the other your best bet would be to pull the engine.
I don't have power at the marina so I can't use the small cranes to pull the engine. Plus, I've moved temporarily into a small box, I mean apartment, and my girlfriend (who has put up with small projects like winch refurb and varnishing) would throw me out if I brought the engine home. So, I am trying to avoid that. If I have to pull it, I will - but it is a last resort as it would be highly inconvenient.
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Post by bcooke »

Come on Jason, Girlfriend or Boat, the choice is clear :-)

Ang is right. It is probably something very fixable. Pulling the engine without power is very do-able however. I wouldn't start thinking that way just yet though. It might lead to unintended consequences.

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Post by Figment »

Who said anything about taking the engine home? just get it out of that tiny little hole and out onto one of the settees, or even onto the cabin sole, and EVERYTHING becomes so much easier to do.

You said you went sailing the other day, so that means you have mast, boom, and mainsheet tackle. No crane required.

As we've often postulated, pulling the A4 is only hard the first time, and then really only because of those infuriating square nuts on the mounting bolts. After that it's a piece of cake.
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Post by Summersdawn »

If you rebuild it in your cabin, your new cushions will end up matching your old engine - this would be an added bonus ;-)
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Post by Jason K »

If you rebuild it in your cabin, your new cushions will end up matching your old engine - this would be an added bonus ;-)
That would NOT go over well! :)
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Post by Matt B. »

#218 wrote:
If you rebuild it in your cabin, your new cushions will end up matching your old engine - this would be an added bonus ;-)
That would NOT go over well! :)
You're still putting the girlfriend first, aren't you? <shakes head>

Don't tell my wife I said that... <G>
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Post by Jason K »

Ummm...I'm having a turbulent start to my career as a marine mechanic.

My latest attempt at working on the rusty monster ended poorly.

I removed a number of fittings to look for blockages in the cooling system. The cross over tube that links the head and the manifold was pretty well gooped up, so I think that may have been one of the problems. I acid flushed that piece and pressure flushed the whole system.

I replaced some gaskets when I reassembled the removed pieces. When I went to start the motor it was having a hard time. I closed the through hull and it started roughly and, after runing briefly, water bubbled up from the spark plugs.

I distinctly heard Chris Farley say, "What'd you do?!"

Is this bad?

I was so disgusted I just left. I'm going back today or tomorrow. I plan to remove the spark plugs and turn the motor over with the starter to try and get some water out. Then I'll put a fair amount of MMO in and change the oil until it's not milky. Hopefully that solves it.

I can't imagine breaking something with the little bit of work that I did. I had to remove a spark plug to get a wrench on one of the cross over bolts and I only hand tightened it when I pressure flushed the system, as I had to remove it again in a few minutes (Stupid, I know). I'm hoping some water found its way in that way. I know excessive cranking can force water in, but I think I closed the through hull in time. We'll see...
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Post by Tim »

Few things are worse or more frustrating than fighting with an engine in a sailboat.
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Post by bcooke »

Ummm...I'm having a turbulent start to my career as a marine mechanic.
I wish I could say it gets better with experience. It doesn't. Most experienced mechanics develop a very colorful vocabulary to express their high experience levels.

Walking away before you did something you would regret was probably a good thing. Come back in the morning and it probably won't be so bad. That works for me at least.

The water can come in from excessive cranking because the water being injected into the exhaust starts to fill up the exhaust line because there isn't the exhaust pressure to blow it out.

Mike knows these raw water cooled engines better so maybe he will have something useful to say.

So you had water coming out of more than one cylinder?

Do you know there is water in the oil or are you assumming there is?

Dry the sparkplugs, squirt a little MMO into the cylinders while the plugs are out, close the raw water inlet and start her up. A small amount of water won't hurt one of these prehistoric engines. Even a small amount of water in the oil will just boil off once the engine is up to temperature. (a lot of water might cause some serious pressure spikes though -think of how strong those steam locomotives are).

I am looking at the drawings and I can't see how you could hurt anything by just removing the hoses... or did you swap the inlet and outlet hoses at the pump? That might be a problem. In that case I would still just dry it off and fire it up.

Don't despair. I sank a new outboard motor last year and had it running after a mornings work.

Remember A4's good. Diesels... well I can't really say bad can I?... let's just say "not much better..." :-)

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Post by Figment »

#218 wrote: I.... pressure flushed the whole system.

When I went to start the motor it was having a hard time.

I distinctly heard Chris Farley say, "What'd you do?!"
how exactly did you pressure flush the system?

99% certain that you overflooded the exhaust and it backed up into the cylineders through the exhaust valves.

When the motor was having a hard time turning, it was fighting incompressible water on the compression stroke. On a new engine, that blows the head gasket for sure. On a 40 year old A4, however, the valve and ring tolerances aren't what they once were, so you might be OK.

Remedy?
Honestly my brain is working on 1/3 voltage today so I can't remember. moyermarine.com is only a click away, though.
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Post by bcooke »

How best to dry out the engine?
I had pretty good luck flushing the cylinders with alcohol. Of course this was on an outboard so I could tip it upside down to drain the excess out.

I might try a small amount of alcohol, letting it evaporate, hopefully evaporating the water with it, and spraying MMO into the cylinders and let the whole thing sit awhile with the sparkplugs removed. I imagine the remaining water will evaporate out eventually. If there were alot of water in the cylinders you could turn the engine over with the spark plugs out. Start cautiously with quick bumps of the starter. The risk would be the incompressable water would be locked between the piston and the shrinking cylinder space causing structural damage (hydraulic lock).
...On a new engine, that blows the head gasket for sure
If you are lucky. If you are unlucky the valve train, piston, connecting rod, or cylinder wall is damaged or deformed. Don't underestimate the power of a hydraulic lock. Of course the A4 is low compression and crude so none of those things are likely to happen.

A heat lamp might speed up the evaporation.

how exactly did you pressure flush the system?
Yes, inquiring minds want to know. I am reading through the Moyer manual and following their guidelines you are not going to get water backing up in the cylinders. Was the water injection line to the exhaust left in place when you flushed? Or are Mike and I on the wrong track totally?

I have to admit. The whole incident seems more clinical and interesting from a thousand miles away. Have a Mojito (or two) and keep us updated.

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Post by Jason K »

Few things are worse or more frustrating than fighting with an engine in a sailboat.
That's a fact.
how exactly did you pressure flush the system?
Yes, inquiring minds want to know.
Before I get there, after today's work here is what I think happened:

Last weekend, in order to remove the cross over loop, I removed the first spark plug to accomodate a wrench. I replaced it and only hand tightened it as I was anticipating removing it again to reinstall the cross over loop. When I opened the through hull to check water flow through the block and head, I think a little bit of water got into the head via the loose spark plug.

To answer the questionabout how I pressure flushed, though, I first attached a hose adapter on the 3/4" fitting on top of the water pump. I think those of you in colder climates use the same fitting for winterizing your engines. I attached a water hose and turned it on.

TODAY:
I blew off work to figure this thing out. I removed the spark plugs and, as I was concerned the water may have done some damage, I did a thumb compression test - the compression felt very strong. There's no way you could hold your thumb over one of those holes, so I should be OK there. I also turned the motor over on the starter and no water came out the top. The oil wasn't milky either, so I couldn't have had that much water in there.

Perhaps erring on the side of caution, I changed the oil and replaced the spark plugs. The motor was still reluctant to start so I tapped the carb bowl and she fired up. How frustrating is it when you work on one problem and another one, completely unrelated, pops up!

I was still getting really bad water flow, though, so I determined to fix that problem. I checked flow at each point, moving incrementally from the through-hull to each successive accessible point. I was getting great flow through to the cooling loop on the head of the engine. However, even under fairly high pressure, I was getting very poor flow through the manifold. I removed the fitting at the aft end of the manifold where the water passes into the exhaust (and broke the water temp sending unit's cable) and attached a fitting to accomodate a female hose fitting. I then acid flushed the manifold. That improved the flow but not significantly.

I then pumped all of the water out of the manifold and filled it up with a very strong muriatic acid solution. I let that sit for one beer and, when I fresh water flushed the maifold, a lot of black goop pumped out. I let the fresh water flow through the manifold at a significant pressure and, when I reassembled the fittings, not only did I not screw up the motor, but I got better flow than I've ever had before.

On a down note, I think the manifold has a hairline crack in it. I may replace it.

On an up note, I got the motor working in time for a quick 45 minute sail before nightfall. Pretty nice.
Have a Mojito (or two) and keep us updated.
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Post by Tim »

#218 wrote:To answer the questionabout how I pressure flushed, though, I first attached a hose adapter on the 3/4" fitting on top of the water pump. I think those of you in colder climates use the same fitting for winterizing your engines. I attached a water hose and turned it on.
For what it's worth, most small engines don't like to have water force-fed into their cooling systems. I place water in a bucket, and a hose from the engine into the bucket, so that the raw water system can draw water at its own pace and no more. High water pressure can cause all sorts of unwanted consequences, such as forcing water into places where it doesn't belong.

I keep a special section of hose on board for this purpose. I disconnect the seawater hose from the raw water pump intake and install my length of hose, which I can then run into a bucket on the cabin sole.
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Post by Figment »

That's a happier ending than I'd thought possible. Nice work!
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Post by Jason K »

most small engines don't like to have water force-fed into their cooling systems.
Now you tell me! :)

I consulted with Don Moyer prior to pressure flushing and acid flushing and he didn't seem too alarmed. There's also a number of references to pressure flushing on his website. Plus, the water was just from a regular hose. That hose feeds from a water system I and another guy patched in order to get water out to our boats. Due to breaks that are inaccessible or to parts we simply missed, by the time you get to my end of the pier, the water pressure is about half of normal.

Another reason I wanted to do it that way is that the motor was heating right up and I wanted to be able to run fresh water through it for longer than it would tolerate a safe operating temperature.

Besides, what the worst that could happen! The motor needs a rebuild anyway as there are a number of things I'd like to do to bring it up to standard (paint, fresh water cooling, thermostat, recirculating loop, rebuilt carb, traditional gear shifter, etc.)

That's a happier ending than I'd thought possible. Nice work!
Yeah, I thought I was pulling the engine for sure. Thanks all for your help, once again.
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bcooke
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Posts: 2272
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:55 pm
Boat Name: Jenny
Boat Type: 1966 Pearson Triton
Location: Rowley, MA
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Post by bcooke »

Good to hear that things are on an upswing.

My natural inclination is to worry about high pressure water in the block but I know Moyer has no problem with the procedure and they should know if a problem is likely to develop. I might not try it with some other engines but I think the A4 can handle it. With the loss of pressure from the long hoses I think you are on safe grounds.

Black Goop?! That is not what I would have expected but my experience is limited in these things. Getting it out can only help things.

Now, you tapped the carburetor and things started working? Boy!, the fun never ends on the sailing vessel Mojito. The float in the carburetor may be sticking which would cause the fuel/air mixture to be off and cause the engine to run badly. Either that or you had a bit of dirt under the needle valve. I have forgotten, didn't you rebuild the carburetor? If not you might want to spend an hour doing it.
I keep a special section of hose on board for this purpose. I disconnect the seawater hose from the raw water pump intake and install my length of hose, which I can then run into a bucket on the cabin sole.
While I never would have thought it possible I think I have one-upped Glissando here.

I have a bronze T-valve after the raw water inlet and before the strainer with a four foot section of hose that normally lies in the deep bilge area. When I want to draw water from the bucket I just take the end of the hose and stick it in a bucket and flip the valve handle. I figure any time I disconnect something I am liable to break it (personal experience talking here) and in a crisis I could use the engine cooling system to help pump water out of the bilge.
Few things are worse or more frustrating than fighting with an engine in a sailboat
Okay, I know this is nitpicking and probably belongs in the boat-nerdery section but technically the Triton is NOT a sailboat. It is a Sail Auxiliary. The engine isn't an afterthought but an integral part of the design. It belongs there as much as the mast and sails and should be appreciated as such.

Take my opinions for what they are worth :-)

-Britton
MikeD
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:42 pm
Boat Name: Totoro
Boat Type: Sea Sprite 23 (#626)
Location: Scarborough, Maine

Post by MikeD »

bcooke wrote:I have a bronze T-valve after the raw water inlet and before the strainer with a four foot section of hose that normally lies in the deep bilge area. When I want to draw water from the bucket I just take the end of the hose and stick it in a bucket and flip the valve handle. I figure any time I disconnect something I am liable to break it (personal experience talking here) and in a crisis I could use the engine cooling system to help pump water out of the bilge.
Great idea!
Mike
Totoro (SS23 #626)
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Tim
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Boat Name: Glissando
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Post by Tim »

bcooke wrote:Okay, I know this is nitpicking and probably belongs in the boat-nerdery section but technically the Triton is NOT a sailboat. It is a Sail Auxiliary. The engine isn't an afterthought but an integral part of the design. It belongs there as much as the mast and sails and should be appreciated as such.
Geez, Britton, you need a life! hehe

I'm a big fan of my engine and would never suscribe to any notion of going without; it's just not practical for the way most people use their boats. But I'll still say that the engine is not as critical to the operation and design of the boat as the mast and sails (hence the term "auxiliary engine"), and while I understand the point above and don't necessarily disagree on a technicality basis, I am certainly not going to stop calling my boat a sailboat as a result!

Now that we've determined that it's still OK to call these sailboats sailboats (and I hereby decree that we have indeed determined this), I will say that I completely agree that if one chooses to have an engine on board, it deserves proper maintenance and care, and should not be relegated to the dark and nasty corners of the bilge, ne'er to see light of day. For an auxiliary engine to be worthwhile, it must be in such operating condition so as to be ready for use at any time. No engine will perform as expected if not cared for properly. This means cleanings, fluid changes, attention to leaks, impeller replacements, filter replacements, electrical system maintenance (gasoline engines), and clean fuel. All engines require this sort of basic maintenance in order to be ready to go when one requests its service. And the best defense against being let down by your engine, good maintenance or not, is to always be amazed when it starts, rather than entirely relying upon it. Having that seed of doubt at all times tends to help prevent getting into sticky situations when the engine for whatever reason does fail to start or run correctly.

Love your engine, and she will love you in return.
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