Dasein's Icebox

[dasein668]

In a separate thread Britton asked:

Question on your icebox Nathan; Is your icebox built to the height of the original galley counter (port side) or is a bit higher.

The new icebox is lower than the previous port side galley counter height. The old icebox connected to the underside of the bridge deck, so the counter was even higher?at the level of the dirt mark in the photo below.



Here's the old icebox:

what is the standard measurements for a block of ice

I don't recall exactly. But from memory, and looking at a ruler, I'd guess 12-14 inches by 6-ish inches square. I would definitely go measure before you built anything though!

[Rachel]

A couple of thoughts on ice-block size (and therefore size of lid cutout):

1) If you plan to cruise in "less developed" places, you can often get blocks as large as you like. And even if they're smaller (like our U.S. blocks) they're not always quite as uniform. Of course you don't want a giant-sized opening, but one a wee bit larger than necessary might be nice.

I'm trying to remember the width of the opening of the ice box I used... it was just workable, but I often had to hack bits off of perfectly good wider blocks once out of the U.S. <thinks...> I believe it was just about 9" wide. It did accomodate *most* blocks quite nicely (and since the whole icebox was only that wide, a larger opening would have been pointless on that setup). I would not have wanted one any narrower.

2) Charlie and Laura (CharlieJ here) have a good system for when they cruise from home: They freeze their own blocks in dishpans before they leave; and, between that and their well-insulated ice box, they have ice for over a week even in south Texas. If you think this sounds like something you might do, it gives you one more thing to measure before you decide on the size of the cut-out.

*****************

This is probably the perfect place for me to insert my "fake block" rant, right? Have any of you tried those so-called "blocks" wherein they take a bunch of cubes and press them together to make something that *looks* like an ice block? (Thinks, "Uh-oh, have I ranted about this already?"). You'll know if you did because they last about fifteen minutes.....

Well I ran into the owner of a largish local ice plant this spring at work. Having never bought ice around here, I asked him if they made/sold blocks, and if so, what type? When he said that they only had the fake ones (he called them something else), I commented that they were nearly useless (only I was more tactful). He said "Oh no, we've done tests, they last longer" I'm not sure I *actually* snorted at that, but I wanted to. Longer, yeah, right... They DO NOT last longer!

When I inquired a bit more about it, I think I got to the heart of the matter. I don't remember the exact numbers but this is the gist: When they were making real blocks, they could make about 200 in a day. Now they can make something like 150 in an hour. Of course he said that had nothing to do with it. I politely turned away before I rolled my eyes.

Phew, okay, that's done. Rant over!

On the flip side, there is nothing like walking up the dusty street of some town in Central America on a hot, hot day, parched and dry, and then arriving at the ice plant. You go in and it's dark and shivery-cool and you can see your breath. They have blocks the size of houses in there and you can get as much as you want. Bliss! It's all good clear "real" ice, too. Long live the ice plant! :-)

***************

Oh, and back to the subject at hand: I agree with what Nathan said in the article on his website: Make the inner box walls very strong. When you lower (drop?) ice blocks in there they can land quite hard, especially if they slip. I hope CharlieJ chimes in on this thread because I think he and Laura have a very functional ice box on their boat, Tehani. And I don't think they had that much space to work with, either.

Thanks for starting this thread, Nathan - and for posting the article on your website, too.

[Summersdawn]

I freeze bottles of water to use as ice. I have never had one split. When they melt, you don't have any ice melt to worry about, just bottles of ice cold drinking water.

I'm not sure how they last against blocks of ice (I would presume not quite as long as there will be more surface area for the same amount of ice), but for shorter trips, the convenience is worth it. You can also arrange them nicely, like packing them around meat and beer (or anything else you want to keep cold). If they melt and you need to buy blocks, they can always be moved to somewhere else to free up room in the ice box.

I only have a small water tank on my boat, so even if I didn't use them as ice, I would probably bring a couple of cases of water as drinking water anyway.

[bcooke]

Thanks for the reply Nathan but...

bcooke wrote:
Question on your icebox Nathan; Is your icebox built to the height of the original galley counter (port side) or is a bit higher

I got confused. I meant the height of the orginal starboard galley counter.

Rachel, is that 9 inches square? And how long were those blocks? Realistically, I don't expect my icebox to be used in less-developed countries all that much (better term than 'third world' which really refers to political alignments during the cold war - not many people actually know that- Kudos) or even in my normal cruising but I would hate to prove myself wrong after I have a 'finished' interior in place sans icebox. I guess I could pack a wicked looking hatchet to make any ice block fit and it might look cool mounted on the bulkhead.

And since we are now speaking of iceboxes... I have been debating for awhile about whether to put the icebox in the same Triton location (like Nathan's) or to put it up in the hanging locker. I was thinking the hanging locker location might free up a lot of under counter storage in the galley area, make good use of an underused part of the boat and get the icebox away from the hottest part of the boat (engine room). Plus I wouldn't have the hassle of the access door being partway under the bridge deck. After some measuring and calculating The volumes are close to the same. As of today though I am sticking with the tried and true location and using the hanging locker for 'mission specific' bulk storage. Any ideas?

-Britton

P.S. And just for the record, I think that is the first time I have heard the ice block rant

[dasein668]

No, it is quite a bit higher than the starboard counter. To lower it that far would eat up quite a bit of the available volume of the box. I lowered it only enough to have enough room to lift the lid off without smashing my hand on the underside of the bridge deck. That puts it about 5 inches below the bridge deck, maybe? That makes it maybe 4 or 5 inches higher than the starboard counter? I'm guessing at the numbers...

[dasein668]

As for putting the box up in the hanging locker, I don't see any real issues with that except for the possible inconvenience of having your perishables up there when the rest of the galley is back by the companionway. Possibly not a major concern for you, but then again, perhaps it is.

[Rachel]

Rachel, is that 9 inches square? And how long were those blocks?

I wish I could go back to the boat with a measuring tape....

At any rate, the icebox was part of the "peninsula" that divided the galley from the saloon, and made the galley U-shaped. So it was long and narrow, as it went from the hullside to the center of the boat. The lids were a long rectangle (9" x 28"?) with a hinge in the center so that you could lift either half separately (either the inboard or outboard half; the hinge ran fore-and-aft). So if you had the whole lid off (it was not attached in any way) you had an opening of about 9" x 28". The length was handy, but the 9" could be a bit limiting for your really humongo or warty blocks. Perfectly fine for well-domesticated blocks though.

Having the icebox on the peninsula kept it narrow, because the whole thing was only about 14" wide - the rest of that was insulation - but also did keep it away from the engine though (the sink was there, and the stove in the "bottom" of the U) (not that that is useful info for Tritons).

And just for the record, I think that is the first time I have heard the ice block rant

Ah, good. I'll TRY to make it the last. CharlieJ might contribute a separate rant though ;-)

--- Rachel

[bcooke]

I don't see any real issues with that except for the possible inconvenience of having your perishables up there when the rest of the galley is back by the companionway

Nah, I could use the exercise anyway :-)

I don't envision running back to the icebox multiple times a day either. What am I talking about? The distance from the galley to hanging locker is only about two strides at best. It would take a lot of trips to become inconvenient.

I would like the ability to go out for two weeks to a month at a time between re-supplies which means I will run out of ice and capacity at some point no matter what. ifI am going to have to live without ice for at least part of the trip no matter what I design I think I am going to learn to live with a modest sized icebox that will be enjoyed on short cruises without really biting into the storage space needed for a longer cruise.

Besides, the party is always on Tim's boat anyway and he has plenty of ice!

-Britton

[dasein668]

Besides, the party is always on Tim's boat anyway and he has plenty of ice!

That is why they call it an icebox, isn't it? Because it's filled with ice cubes for the rum?

[Tim]

Regardless of whether you end up keeping chilled foods or not, an icebox is not really wasted space because you can always store other things there, or keep unrefrigerated foods cooler. The only "waste", I suppose, is the space dedicated to insulation--but that's rather insignificant in the scheme of things.

Not everyone cares about ice and refrigeration. I do, and would never short change my icebox. Sizing it to be a good compromise between available space, efficiency, and the general size of ice blocks makes sense no matter what--unless you go without a dedicated icebox completely, which some people do. If I were of the type to eat basic foods and drink warm drinks, I'd probably not bother with any icebox. But if you have any inclination to want chilled food or drinks, at least some of the time, then take the time and effort to build the icebox so that it's as versatile and useful as possible.

I think the hanging locker location in a Triton makes sense for an icebox, as it really is sort of worthless space otherwise. In a lot of ways, I think that the open space for storage or countertops or what have you might be better to have in the main cabin where the icebox was. Plus, having the icebox a few steps away like that might avoid the hassle of having items stored on top of the icebox hatch that you have to move every time you need to get in or out.

To keep the cold in, I tend to try and get out everything I need for a meal or whatever at once, then close the icebox. Because of lack of counter space, some of these items then end up back on top of the icebox. Inevitably, I forget one thing or another, and then have to move the whole shebang. If the icebox were forward, as Britton suggests, it could help relieve this particular problem.

We did have a discussion on "real" ice blocks versus other alternatives a couple months ago here, but I think it was when Rachel was not visiting daily. (and why was that, by the way, ahem!? Oh, and nice avatar, Rachel, too!)

[Rachel]

To keep the cold in, I tend to try and get out everything I need for a meal or whatever at once, then close the icebox. Because of lack of counter space, some of these items then end up back on top of the icebox. Inevitably, I forget one thing or another, and then have to move the whole shebang.

Oh boy, Tim, is that ever true! If I had a nickel for everytime I did that, my boating kitty would be plump and healthy. That alone almost sells me on the forward location (it has made me consider a side door, even though I know it's wasteful and totally impractical - that's how annoying it is).

The opposing petty consideration that keeps me liking the aft location is only applicable for non-solo sailors, but so often one person is in the galley and busy, when someone in the cockpit calls for a cold drink. Then it is nice to just reach over, grab it, and hand it up to the cockpit.

But wait, I forgot about moving all the other stuff that's on top of the icebox........ Okay, hanging locker!

Or..... now maybe this is silly and too complicated for a Triton, but what about a dedicated drinks cooler? Heh, now we're back to a variation on Pearson's original cockpit icebox hatch. A portable cooler in the cockpit?

No, the hanging locker idea is sounding really good right now. And (Britton) if the lack of simplicity later made you really hate the icebox, you could more easily tear it out without damaging your (likely) more attractive saloon/galley area.

We did have a discussion on "real" ice blocks versus other alternatives a couple months ago here, but I think it was when Rachel was not visiting daily. (and why was that, by the way, ahem!? Oh, and nice avatar, Rachel, too!)

Busted! No, it's boring, really. A combination of too much working, no Internet access at home (I told Charter to stuff it, but then had no good alternative lined up - felt good for a few minutes though!), and a lack of progress on any boat to talk about [hangs head] kept me away. But if you'd rather think of me on a whirlwind trip to Paris or something.... Oh wait, I did do a couple of boat deliveries in there for real, but that was only a few weeks in total.

And thanks for commenting on my avatar! It's the first time I've had one, and I like it too - they do lend a lot to the board. I had to try it a bunch of different times to get it right because I'm not skilled in figuring out the size. Yep, that was me at 2 a.m. putting one up, going to look at a thread with one of my posts in it, recoiling in horror that the WHOLE thread had been moved over half a foot because my avatar was the size of Texas, erasing it to try something else...

Speaking of avatars: Britton, I think yours needs some color tweaking. Perhaps make the background magenta or some other crazy color so we can see those lovely tanks better. You could then passively gloat much more effectively. And Nathan could hate you more.

--- R.

[bcooke]

when someone in the cockpit calls for a cold drink. Then it is nice to just reach over, grab it, and hand it up to the cockpit

or how about this: "when someone in the cockpit calls for a cold drink. Then it is nice to just [walk two steps] reach over, grab it, and hand it up to the cockpit". We are talking Tritons after all.

Anyone should consider themselves pretty lucky if I stop what I am doing to fetch them a drink anyhow.

but what about a dedicated drinks cooler?

Cold drinks while sailing is such a foreign concept to me. Maybe that is because I mostly sail in Maine where I am usually wearing sweatshirts and long pants. I can't think of a time when cold drinks under sail was ever be that appealing- At least not nearly as appealing as hot drinks on those frosty mornings.

I actually was thinking a bit along these lines for awhile which is why my icebox hatch lid remained in the cockpit for so long. I was considering some sort of drink/food holder using the original cockpit icebox lid. Now a dedicated drink cooler would be pretty clever. Maybe one of our southern Triton friends can explore this idea in more detail. As for me, I decided to content myself with gimballed cup holders inside the cockpit access hatches instead.

Having to move stuff out of the way to get into the icebox was a consideration I had but those that have galley iceboxes haven't mentioned it before so I thought I was over thinking (yet again) the situation.

You know, I had planned on building the structure in the hanging locker for a storage bin with shelves this morning. Now I have to think again. I should probably try the icebox up there just because no one has tried it yet. Here is my chance to revolutionize the Triton resurrection industry! I could be famous! Oh,wait, I already am, though for different reasons...

As for avatars and color tweaking. I feel pretty clever getting an avatar to post. I don't have a clue about adjusting the color and I don't have the eye to notice. I was hoping for at least one more hate mail from Nathan but I guess I have already driven him over the top. I will have to change it again. If my boat wasn't such a mess it would be much easier to find a decent photo.

-Britton

[Rachel]

...or how about this: "when someone in the cockpit calls for a cold drink. Then it is nice to just [walk two steps] reach over, grab it, and hand it up to the cockpit". We are talking Tritons after all.

Good point. I keep forgetting how compact the Triton is; obviously I need to spend more time on small boats again.

Anyone should consider themselves pretty lucky if I stop what I am doing to fetch them a drink anyhow.

Nope, no idea why you end up cruising solo.....

Having to move stuff out of the way to get into the icebox was a consideration I had but those that have galley iceboxes haven't mentioned it before so I thought I was over thinking (yet again) the situation.

Well, it's definitely true, in my experience. Perhaps I/we were just blanking it out like a bad car accident and so hadn't mentioned it. Or, more likely, it just starts to seem "normal" after a while, annoying as it is.

I could be famous! Oh,wait, I already am, though for different reasons...

I'll generously leave this one for someone else.

As for avatars... I will have to change it again.

I vote "change." This one is hard to see, even though it made me laugh when I first saw it. The socks are a hard act to follow though.

[Jason K]

While I know this would certainly not work for an extended cruise, I purchased a small soft ice chest that fits almost perfectly into the cockpit hatch. It keeps drinks cold for a full day and is removed for easy cleaning or hops to the beach. I keep a full size ice chest on the cabin sole for weekending and I use the main body of the ice box for dry goods and wine/liquor storage.

Of course, I use my boat for daysailing/weekending and not true cruising.

[bcooke]

Too late for me.

I was impressed at how long Tim and Nathan can get their ice to last. I don't think there is a portable cooler that can come close. I guess once I have seen Nirvana there is no going back.

I'll generously leave this one for someone else

You are much too generous Rachel. Don't expect equal treatment ;-)

-Britton

[Figment]

This forward icebox idea has merit, I think. The boat definitely likes weight forward.

I would join those who wish for a smaller beverage cooler accessible from the cockpit. My own thoughts on this have tended toward a 12-pack (plus ice) sized thing with a hinged lid at the aft end of the starboard cockpit seat.
It needn't be superinsulated, it only has to keep ice for a day. The drain should easily be hosed over to the side deck drain system.
I'm sure I'll think of a reason not to do it after I've sawed open the seat.

I keep talking/thinking about building myself a "real" icebox and not getting around to it. A big part of my hesitation is engine access. Any icebox I build must be built like a sled on rails that can slide forward and out of the way with less than an hour's labor. That's the ideal, anyway.

This thread is a great reminder that we're all customizing our boats toward different ends. One man's daysailing ideal is another's cruising inadequacy, vice versa.

[dasein668]

T Any icebox I build must be built like a sled on rails that can slide forward and out of the way with less than an hour's labor.

That's a great idea, actually, and probably not overly difficult to engineer, really. I like it!

[bcooke]

Yes, the need to maintain the A4 engine on the port side does impact my decision on icebox placement. I was thinking I could leave a few inches for my skillful fingers to do their magic but if I just had a galley cupboard back there then I could use a sliding panel to gain access to the engine after crawling into the cupboard. A removable icebox is an option but if I have to spend an hour gaining access to the carburetor and such I am not going to do it as often as I should.

If you really wanted a small beverage cooler how about a small 'Igloo' portable cooler under a cockpit locker. It wouldn't be as unique but it would be nearly as functional plus you could take the whole cooler with you when you bought the ice and drinks.

I did some measuring in the hanging locker today. The tricky part is the width between the bulkheads. I measure 17.5 inches across. Take out 4 inches on each side for insulation (4+4=8) and that leaves 9.5 inches of width for the contents of the icebox. Add a bit for a fudge factor and lining material and it gets pretty tight but the good news is that the box after accounting for insulation can be 20-28+ inches deep depending on high you want to build the box. At the top end the box is nearly that long from the cabin sole to the hull too. I drove all over town this evening looking for blocks of ice to measure. I could only find the blocks made from smaller cubes which were 6 inches square and 14 inches long. I did catch some pretty interesting looks as I whipped out my tape measure and started scrounging around in the icebox bin.

Obviously I need to spend more time on small boats again

I did offer last year...
Some people are just so spoiled. So Rachel what was the freshwater capacity of the boat you delivered to the Bahamas? Didn't you have to dump water to lighten the boat at some point?

-Britton

[Tim]

...that leaves 9.5 inches of width for the contents of the icebox. Add a bit for a fudge factor and lining material and it gets pretty tight but the good news is that the box after accounting for insulation can be 20-28+ inches deep depending on high you want to build the box....

That's awfully tight. It's amazing how a seemingly large space suddenly shrinks dramatically when you take out that 8" space for insulation--something that's easy for all of us to forget during the concept stage.

The finished volume of the box might be adequate, but could you even reach the bottom of a 20" or deeper locker if it were only 9" wide? Access to the bottom is important for cleaning, retreiving lost items, etc. This practical consideration may kill the whole idea.

[dasein668]

Up there away from engine heat you might be able to get away with only, say, 3 inches of insulation...

[dasein668]

In your case, Britton, you might also be able to move that aft bulkhead a few inches aft?you haven't done anything as far as rebuilding the interior that would make that overly difficult have you?

[bcooke]

When I woke up this morning I realized that I had over estimated the necessary insulation. The general consensus seems to agree that three inches of insulation is fine, not the four I calculated. That makes for a bit more elbow room. As for the depth, the box doesn't need to go all the way to the hull. I could add some storage underneath or lower the height of the box. With a lower box I could use the space above to store a laptop/stereo/HF radio/whatever or just use the space as a small desk out of the cook's way.

How big is the interior volume of Dasein's or Glissando's galley icebox?

-Britton

[dasein668]

With a lower box I could use the space above to store a laptop/stereo/HF radio/whatever or just use the space as a small desk out of the cook's way.

Plasma TV.

How big is the interior volume of Dasein's or Glissando's galley icebox?

It's hard to say for sure as I never measured, but I'm going to take a wild guess here.... Ok, using rough dimensions from visual memory, I'm coming up with 3744 cubic inches. Which is something like 2.2 cubic feet. I think it's probably a little bigger than that. I think I underestimated the depth of the box, plus I didn't account for the fact that the hull-side of the triangle isn't a straight line. I'd guess 2.5 or so.

That's plenty large for me. I can get better than a week's worth of food plus 3 blocks and 2 bags of cubes in there, only slightly overfilling the box:



Next time I'm on the boat I'll try to remember to actually measure my box.

[Rachel]

With a lower box I could use the space above to store a laptop/....or just use the space as a small desk out of the cook's way.

Oh, so now you're bringing a cook along? And you thought my delivery boat was cushy! Geez, we had to cook our own meals and all.

You asked about water tankage in the delivery boat: 750 gallons in four tanks. People were showering at sea! Oh, and we did actually throw ice over the side: I even took a photo of that, it was so bizarre. Cruisers throwing away ice at sea. *laugh* But the freezer door wouldn't stay closed on starboard tack... So you can see how design problems rear their ugly heads later on. Not pretty at all.

Mind you it was a whole different world on the cruising boat. Just a regular old ice box, normal-capacity water tanks, etc. No cook either. Hmmph.

--- R

[Tim]

The general consensus seems to agree that three inches of insulation is fine, not the four I calculated.

That's probably because it's a reasonable compromise between efficiency and space.

4" is nice to have, but not all situations might allow that much insulation. If you can fit it, then put it in. But when the space is really tight, it might make sense to go with 3". I wouldn't ever go any less than that with traditional materials, though.

Longevity of ice is all about the insulation. More is better, within the confines of the space.

[Summersdawn]

Can you add insulation on the other side of the bulkhead? Say three inches inside, another inch or 2 outside, covered with some mahogany ply or something? If 4 inches are good, 5 is better.

Just thinking "outside the box".

[catamount]

If 4 inches are good, 5 is better.

[boat nerdery]

More insulation is always better, but the marginal benefit of each additional inch decreases as the overall thinkness of the insulation increases (it's an exponential decay function). This is particularly a problem with relatively small iceboxes such as on boats, due to surface area to volume type relationships...

Here are my calculations for a 5 cubic foot icebox (a cube with inside dimensions of approx. 1.71 feet or 20.5 inches on a side, having an interior surface area of about 17.5 square feet), maintained at 32 degrees F, while the outside is at 100 degrees F. My calculations ignore heat flow at the corners of the box (e.g the outside dimensions of the box are bigger than the inside), and assume the box is closed, and the only heat flow will be due to conduction.



In the model above, I had ignored the heat flow at the corners of the box (e.g. assuming just the red arrows in the diagram below). In other words, my results are equivalent to the heat flow through a single panel of approx. 17.5 sq.ft. area (using the surface area of the interior of the box). I had been thinking that to solve the problem at the corners of the box, I would have to resort to 3D finite-difference numerical modelling, but it occurred to me that I can simply model the heat flow across a surface area taken at the mid-point in the insulation (dashed green line in diagram below) instead.



So, the circles in the graph below are the results for this second case, where the surface area for heat flow expands as you add insulation thickness (i.e. the interior volume of the icebox is constant, insulation is added to the outsides of the box); the squares are the same as the first model above (increasing insulation thickness for a constant heat flow surface area of approx. 17.5 sq.ft., or think of this as an ice box where the added insulation goes half on the inside -- shrinking the interior volume -- and half on the outside)



Here we do get pretty close to a flat line, where increasing thicknesses of insultation result in very little reduction of heat flow (e.g., going from 8" (R40) to 16" (R80) results in a drop from 57.6 BTU/hr to 47.2 BTU/hr, which is certainly not half). But this is a result of the geometry of an icebox, and not a general property of insulation or the physics of heat flow. The larger your icebox is, the less important this effect will be and the more value there will be to additional insulation.

[/boat nerdery]

Regards,

[Summersdawn]

That would be why most people want to stop at 4".

Even more than the extra insulation, I guess my suggestion was couldn't the icebox have insulation outside the bulkhead as well? If the foam were epoxied directly to the bulkhead, with some kind of cosmetic covering over the foam? I'm sure having solid foam without the bulkhead in the middle of the foam would be better, but this might be a good compromise between interior volume in a confined space, plus maximizing the R value.

[Rachel]

[boat nerdery]

Wow, thanks Catamount! Nerdery is always welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I would have had to build two or three (otherwise) identical ice-boxes with varying thicknesses of insulation to figure that out :-)

Looks like 3" is almost mandatory, 4" is better, and after that... not so much return on your insulation space.

By then the overwhelming factor is probably how often you open it, etc. On the aforementioned delivery boat they had some insulated-yet-flexible panels on top of the food, so that you could open the box without really exposing it to air, then just lift up a corner of the insulation and get what you wanted. Might be too fussy sometimes, but it probably has merit at least part of the time.

--- R.

[Figment]

Long Live the Nerdery!!!!

Tim, are those numbers for polyisocyanurate or polystyrene insulation? (the crumbly yellow stuff or the pink/blue stuff)
I know it doesn't make any difference to your point about the flattening of the curve, I'm just curious.

I've been debating between the two materials lately.
Polyiso has much better initial performance (for a given thickness), but that performance falls away dramatically if it ever gets wet, so you need to give away some of that thickness to a plywood lining to guard against puncture. Polysty has the idiot-proof thing going for it.

[Tim]

Does the graph change at all for different R values per inch?

For example, your graph indicates R5 per inch. What happens at R6.5 per inch, like polyisocyanurate? Is it a similar curve?

Just curious, that's all. (I can't believe I'm egging on a boat nerdery question! hehe)

[bcooke]

Plasma TV.

The best idea yet!

Oh, so now you're bringing a cook along?

I am thinking optimistically. Let's say... a sailing companion that likes cooking more than me. I need a place to get out of the way.

I am thinking the hanging locker space is deep enough to put more insulation against the hull which is probably the source of the highest temperatures leaving a sufficient 3 inches on the sides (fore and aft bulkheads).

Good thought about adding insulation on the other sides of the bulkheads. I tossed the idea around but it didn't work too good for me. Those spaces are already spoken for.

Excellent example of Boat Nerdery. Great! I love it. Forum users for years to come will be inspired by those graphs.

..but that performance falls away dramatically if it ever gets wet, so you need to give away some of that thickness to a plywood lining to guard against puncture

How about a couple of layers of fiberglass? Wouldn't that be tough enough or do you plan on dropping those blocks of ice inside. Come to think of it, maybe I should plan on a plywood lining myself. I bet some plywood on the bottom would be sufficient. I think I could be careful enough on the sides.

Who knew that an icebox thread would rival a head thread for postings?...

-Britton

[catamount]

are those numbers for polyisocyanurate or polystyrene insulation? (the crumbly yellow stuff or the pink/blue stuff)

R5 per inch is the nominal insulation value for Dow Polystyrene "Blueboard." Glacier Bay did some testing of various ice box insulation materials, and the results are reported here: http://www.glacierbay.com/Instresult.asp

Does the graph change at all for different R values per inch?

You can replace the values on the bottom axis (inches of R5 insulation) with total R-value (multiply each value by 5) -- then the graph will be correct regardless of what type of insulation you are using, it will just be in terms of R-value instead of inches.

[Figment]

Anyone else check out that Glacier Bay site? WOW!!!!! R20 per inch!!!
Premanufactured magnetically-sealed icebox hatch with an R50 rating!

Of course, the $600-800 price tag is nothing to sneeze at, but still that's some cool stuff.

[Rachel]

How about a couple of layers of fiberglass? Wouldn't that be tough enough or do you plan on dropping those blocks of ice inside.

Perhaps it's not so much of a factor with smallish blocks of ice, but I've more-or-less dropped plenty of them into the bottom. Okay, not dropped, exactly, but they do tend to get away from you sometimes. Another thing is that sometimes a chunk of ice - or maybe an errant can - can get tossed around inside the box in rough seas. Personally, I'd say the tougher the better for the inside of the box - especially the bottom half or so.

--- R.

[Figment]

Who knew that an icebox thread would rival a head thread for postings?...

Refrigeration and sanitation..... the cornerstones of civilization!!!!

[bcooke]

In your case, Britton, you might also be able to move that aft bulkhead a few inches aft?you haven't done anything as far as rebuilding the interior that would make that overly difficult have you?

I missed that quote.

Good God Nathan do you think I am crazy?!.... Wait. Don't answer that.

While I could move the bulkhead it isn't going to happen. I won't shorten the settee any more than it is (6'1") and I have been working on the interior in that area.

-B.

[Tim]

still that's some cool stuff

HA!!!

(In a thread about iceboxes...)

How about a couple of layers of fiberglass? Wouldn't that be tough enough or do you plan on dropping those blocks of ice inside.

You WILL drop blocks. They are relatively heavy, cold, slippery, and awkward to handle through a small opening that might be located in a less than ideal place. You need to protect the bottom of the icebox with some sturdy material. 1/4" plywood with a couple layers of structural fiberglass would be the minimum.

I'd recommend protecting the sides, too. You may live to regret it if you do not. After all, you want to do this right if you're going to do it. The sides need less protection than the bottom, but things still get bumped around in there. You won't miss the 3/4" space that you'll lose overall.

Remember: ice sunk the Titanic. It's strong and sharp stuff.

[jollyboat]

For years I have debated the Triton ice box with my rum-fellows as I have taken so much heat for always permently removing the stock Triton ice box on both 346 and now again on 466. First - though - I must agree with Tim L. in that if ice is your thing - go for it! however, with this said, my needs in how I use my Triton always make me think that the engineers from MIT who now work for IGLOO COOLERS can always stock the shelves of WALMART with coolers that are larger, portable, lighter, more efficient, less expensive, replacable, upgradeable, come in vast aray of colors and sizes and are available almost any time.

[Figment]

Yeah, but can Igloo ever do something as gorgeous as this??



now THAT's an icebox!!!!

[Robert The Gray]

I used an off the shelf igloo ice chest as my basic ice box and then built around it with more riged insulation. I just put a piece of fabric covered foam over the top of the existing lid. The lid fits snug, there is a drain hole and the interior is easy to clean. no fiberglassing. Works fine for my weekending. I also use a collapsable cooler for the daysail beer and sandwich.

r

[jollyboat]

Wow, that is a nice ice box - and I doubt that one like it can be found at WALMART. With that said - I am not anti -ice box - I just feel that with my style of sailing an 'off the self' unit has some great adventages that can be overlooked and under-thought out by many. Incidently, making a production ice box look like an old varnished sea chest would be an easy task for a lot of the folks on this forum. Like I said, this is always a hot topic when it comes to how to be 'cool'.

[Rachel]

now THAT's an icebox!!!!

Wow, that is swoonworthy! What boat is that in? Any more belowdecks photos?

--- R.

[Tim]

Yeah, but can Igloo ever do something as gorgeous as this??



now THAT's an icebox!!!!

That looks possibly Concordia-like. Beautiful, in any event!

And as jollyboat said, there are a lot of compelling reasons to consider portable coolers. It all depends on your anticipated usage, which in the end is what drives the final decision.

FWIW, I keep my icebox cold all summer. I bring a block or two every time I visit the boat and avoid having the ice ever run out. It's often nice to leave semi-perishables on board, and to have ice or cold drinks available immediately after boarding or at any time.

[Figment]

What boat is that in? Any more belowdecks photos?

A WoodenBoat photo thread from the Victoria Wooden Boat Festival

If I'm reading it correctly, the Katie Ford is the Canadian Coast Guard's sail training vessel.

[jollyboat]

On the more practical side, I am over six feet tall and I found the salon births (which I prefer) in the Triton just we bit small for my size. After I removed the original Triton ice box from 346 and switched to coolers, there was no looking back as far as making my bunk arrangements superior. I did use my stock ice box for the first season that I owned 346 and discovered - as we all have - that the stock units did not hold the ice for long. I can remember clearly, cramped legs and soggy perishables. That winter I dug out my hammer and blow torch and got to work.

[jollyboat]

FIGMENT - DO YO WANT TO GO SAILING SOMETIME?

LET ME KNOW.

[bcooke]

I'm coming up with 3744 cubic inches. Which is something like 2.2 cubic feet.

Just for reference: I did some measuring in the hanging locker tonight. Figuring 3 inches of insulation all around except the hull side which is a long stretch back to front so 6 inches there just to fill a useless space (figuring the dark hull gets pretty warm too), I get 3480 cubic inches or just over 2 cubic feet of space. I could easily get a bit more by raising the top or lowering the bottom. I settled on a depth of 18 inches as being about the maximum amount I could reach down into in that location. The bottom slopes up as it progresses outboard which will help drainage and maintain my optimum reach angle throughout.

That still leaves some room under the proposed icebox. I used a similar space for boots/foul weather gear/lifejacket/harness last year. I think the space would also make a nice little wine locker. I bet I could get a case or so of wine snuggly tucked under the proposed icebox.

I have most of the materials kicking around so I think I will go ahead and put an icebox in the hanging locker. I will post some comparative pictures when I get something looking like an icebox.

-Britton

[Tony]

The finished volume of the box might be adequate, but could you even reach the bottom of a 20" or deeper locker if it were only 9" wide? Access to the bottom is important for cleaning, retreiving lost items, etc. This practical consideration may kill the whole idea.

We had a 24" deep icebox on our Harstad, and it sucked, even with a large opening. 20" with a 9" opening could be challenging.

[bcooke]

Hey Nathan,

Could you describe your drain in more detail?

Specifically, I was thinking of putting in a valve so that I could drain off the meltwater at my leisure but I am being lazy and don't want to research what works. I see the basic PVC ball valves at the local hardware store that would easily attach to a PVC drain tube but I am not at all sure they are any good.

Any thoughts?

-Britton