Freeing Frozen Fasteners

hebert01 · Post by **hebert01** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:48 pm

Hi-

I was wondering if anyone has any "tricks of the trade" for freeing stuck fasteners beyond the stuff I've already tried.

I've got to replace the gooseneck casting on my boom, which is secured to the boom extrusion with four stainless screws. These things feel like they're fused! I tried tapping/hammering my King Kamehameha-sized screwdriver as it sat in the screws, tapping the boom itself, WD-40, and even a blowtorch....nuthin'. Not even a hint of a budge. I'm not sure if the casting is fixed into the boom with epoxy...is it typically? This is an old Ensign boom.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:04 pm

My guess is that the screw and the extrusion have exchanged their molecules and have become one. I would not think anyone would install the screws with epoxy but there is always someone willing to try something new. The whole point of using screws is that they are removable.

There are a million tricks to removing screws (I know only a few) but in your case I think the options are more limited. Because the screw is much harder than the extrusion, getting too aggressive with the screw will more likely result in tearing a larger chunk out of the extrusion or otherwise deforming the extrusion.

You might try hitting the head of the screw with a hammer and chisel on an angle that would turn the screw in the loosening direction. You might get lucky. You could also create an oblong hole in the extrusion if you hit it too hard.

Sometimes just several applications of a penetrant oil will do the trick. I have been surprised before.

Your extrusion is heat treated so be careful about applying too much heat. If you inadvertently anneal the aluminum or otherwise effect the heat treatment you could be asking for some long term trouble. I don't have any direct experience with this but that is my opinion.

Ultimately what I would do would be to drill out the screws. Low speed on the drill with lots of pressure and some light oil to keep the bit from overheating. It will be slow but it will get the job done.

Or... grind the head of the screw smooth and install a new screw nearby.

A final peice of advise. If you start to get irritated and find that you are increasing the level of force and brutality on the stuck screw then it is time to walk away. I have a thousand regrets when I wished I had just stopped and thought for a second before I grabbed the 'bigger hammer'.

-Britton

JSmith · Post by **JSmith** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:43 pm

On our tugs repeated heat/ wd-40/heat/WD-40 helps. It expands then contracts then expands the two metals which tends to break down any bond between the two. It's hard to do but the idea of heat is to heat just the outer piece of metal. Ideally dry ice on the inside piece and heat on the outside to create a large temp difference but that's the perfect world and very hard to duplicate!

When all is done PUT IT BACK TOGETHER with Never-sieze. keep in mind if aluminum is involved use the type w/ no copper in it as Aluminum & copper mate in salt water!

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:45 pm

bcooke wrote:I have a thousand regrets when I wished I had just stopped and thought for a second before I grabbed the 'bigger hammer'.

Oh, Britton, you're turning into a real Granny in your old age! ;-P

Remember the fun I was having with my prop shaft? The only solution was a bigger hammer! As I recall, YOU were the one lobbying for the bigger hammer the whole day!

JetStream · Post by **JetStream** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:10 pm

One trick that I have found highly useful for stainless screws stuck in aluminum is to use an impact screwdriver after you have applied heat and used penetrant. You can get a cheap impact screwdriver from Sears or you can find them at a lot of tool stores. You basically hold the device with some torque in the direction you want to rotate, then give it a whack with a hammer. You'd be amazed what a lot of torque you can apply without breaking the screw or buggering the head. I can't vouch for this particular manufacturer but the picture will give you the gist http://www.amazon.com/8in-Impact-Driver ... =UTF8&s=hi
Good Luck!!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:43 pm

I've also had success (after lots of cursing and a few walk away/come back cycles) with the heating/cooling and solvent combo. It's hard to compare scientifically (I don't want to try it that many times), but the brand name of "PB Blaster" was recommended to me and it does seem to work. The mechanics where I now work also use it.

Of course now the mere whiff of it brings on negative thoughts, but that gooseneck fitting did finally come apart. It's available at auto parts stores - the can is covered with slogans and information a la "Dr. Bronner's" soap :-)

--- Rachel

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:02 pm

"As seen on T.V."

Also usually available at Walmart. The stuff works.

hebert01 · Post by **hebert01** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:17 pm

thanks for all the suggestions. I think I did the smart thing and walked away and left it alone for the night. I'll give it another go tomorrow with my new round of ammunition.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:44 pm

Nathan wrote:Oh, Britton, you're turning into a real Granny in your old age! ;-P

Remember the fun I was having with my prop shaft?

Granny maybe. I remember your prop shaft vaguely. I am pretty good at being brave on other people's boats. I remember my prop shaft quite clearly since I had to replace it after whacking it too hard...

PB Blaster is good stuff. So is a couple of others. A new product claims to actually freeze the part in addition to the penetrating lubricant part. I haven't tried it.

Repeated heating works. It takes a while though and applying dry ice to the screw while heating the extrusion might prove difficult. I imagine the aluminum will conduct heat faster than the stainless steel so you might be okay just wiping the torch by it a few times. You could also shock it with cold water and repeat the heat process a couple of times. A million ways to remove a screw. You just have to figure out which one in a million technique is going to work this time ...

The impact screwdrivers arre pretty amazing sometimes too. I have used that $26 dollar one. It is probably okay for occasional use but repeated use causes the tip to deform. The big tool companies sell the same thing for about $100

-Britton

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:57 pm

Herbert,

Given that you have tried many reasonable methods for removing the screws at this point, I think Britton's suggestion of grinding the heads off of the screws is a good idea. Once the heads of screws are ground off you can use a center punch on the now remaining shaft of the screw. Once you have punched the shaft, use a drill to further remove screw material. Once all of the screws have been ground down and drilled out below the level of the boom wall thinkness gently tap out the cast fitting. If your are going to reuse the casting take the casting to a vice and recompletely drill out the remaining screw material, retap and reassemble - thats what I did - same problem - Triton 346.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:34 am

Try the PB blaster, which works very well in many instances. Ignore the cheesy packaging emblazened with the usual infomercial-type claims and just buy a can. You'll be pleased in many instances.

Still, it's most likely that the stainless and aluminum have corroded irrevocably together, ne'er to part again. This is a very common condition on old spars, and normally there is no way to make the fastener break free--without just breaking it.

Try all reasonable methods, but beyond that you're at the grinding/cutting stage. It's only worth trying so long in this particular instance.

I don't have a ton of patience when it comes to removing stuck fasteners. I give things a dose of penetrating oil, but when that doesn't work I typically resort to the grinder or saw without trying too many other techniques.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:34 pm

I would try Tobassco sauce on it. I've never used it myself, but it is an old Canadian Navy trick. It is supposed to work really well.

Another option is kerosene. The extrusion is stuck to the end of the boom, so if you can stand it upright with the gooseneck in a bucket filled with kerosene, and let it soak for a day or two, it might work as well.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:44 pm

Another option is kerosene.

Just a bit of trivia. Kerosene is the base material in WD-40 and probably many of the other penetrating oils.

-Britton

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:24 am

Time. Penetrating oil. Attempt with impact driver. Mine is a hand-held, hammer-driven number from Sears. Time. Penetrating oil. Attempt with impact driver. Repeat weekly for a month. Then drill the insolent little _____ out and with luck all you'll have to do is clean up the threads.

I've never found heat to be helpful in aluminum-ss. I never know how hot is hot enough. I don't quite get the related rates of expansion; it's not like expanding a steel nut away from a steel bolt.

Reassemble with your favorite no-corrode, no-gall goo or weak sealant. I've used teflon pipe dope. There's really no keeping the dissimilar metals apart, electrically. But anything is better than nothing.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:04 am

When it comes to to stainles steel and alum. I have had good luck in keeping the two from welding together with the use of OMC anti-seize grease at the time of my re-assembly. I check the fittings periodically and re-grease as needed. I have found that a lot of the problems that we are faced with on our ancient craft is just age and neglect. Once addressed and kept an eye on, many of the challenges never seem to re-appear. Up-keep - go figure. Must have been the two martini lunches of the 70's that cursed our boats.

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:35 pm

If you end up drilling it might be worth getting a couple of reverse twist drill bits. Several times I have used them and the offending screw will back out after I get it hot with the drill. Must be the combination of heat/vibration/twist.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:16 pm

If there is some chance of breaking the thing loose after destroying the head, you might try using an "easy out". These are hardened reverse threaded tools that you tap into the correct size hole in the fastener and twist the offender out.

You can, of course, break the easy out off which will leave you with a stub of very hard metal stuck into your fastening. You can drill the easy out out with the titanium bits (worked on my old Volvo turbo's exhaust manifold). You can also weld a stub of welding rod onto the fastener that the broken easy out is in (worked on my broken brake bleed screw off my 59 Studebaker).

Removing damaged or corroded fasteners from wood is less painful. Buy "unscrew-ums" in the several sizes (worked for dozens of de-zincified screws in my Flying Dutchman). I had to repeatedly clean the stub of screw out of the unscrew-um but they really do work.

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:47 pm

I found when taking off the fittings on my mast that the cordless drill removed a lot more fastenings then the Impact driver or the hand screw driver. The screws that wouldn't come out with the cordless drill I filed a flat on opposing sides and used vice grips. the screw usually came out. If it didn't the head broke off and then I center punched and drilled it. Try the filing vice grip method it only takes a few seconds.

Brock

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:57 pm

From http://www.ssca.org/sscabb//indexold.ph ... &page=0#27

We also had a few frozen bolts and one with the head sheared off. The riggers had a useful trick. They took a TIG welder with a very thin rod and just touched it to the bolt head ? very precise very hot ? freed up each bolt easily. We are having SS Helicoils put in all the holes before the bolts go back in, so hopefully they will be easy to remove the next time.

I haven't tried this myself... (I've tried penetrating lubricant, impact drivers, etc...)

What I do know is that the galvanic reaction between the stainless steel and the aluminum creates an aluminum oxide, which has a larger volume than the original aluminum, and this locks the stainless steel in place. I had to cut away the cast aluminum stemhead fitting on the bow of my boat in order to extract the stainless steel headstay chainplate...

Definitely coat your SS fasteners with something like Ultra Tef-Gel or Lanocote before re-inserting them into or through aluminum.

Regards,

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:21 pm

The Tim Allen ?

(Sorry)

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:06 pm

More power! ArrArrArrgh!

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:27 am

Just to add my $0.02 here.

I had a similar problem getting the mast top off my P-39 mast. Stainless cap held in with stainless screws and 30+ years of stainless/aluminum corrosion from Florida.

Kroil is my penetrating oil of choice. You can find it at gun stores. It is the slickest stuff I've used yet. Kroil + propane torch + impact driver. Worked a treat. WD-40 is only good for getting rid of moisture. I gave up on it for boat related projects a long long time ago.

Last resort, as has been mentioned here- drill out the screws.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:19 pm

Mark.Wilme wrote: The Tim Allen ?

(Sorry)

If it were THE Tim Allen, he would have suggested a gas powered impact driver!

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:47 pm

Summersdawn wrote:If it were THE Tim Allen, he would have suggested a gas powered impact driver!

How about an explosive powder charge actuated impact driver?

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:15 pm

The Real Tim Allen wrote:
How about an explosive powder charge actuated impact driver?

I stand corrected. Can I have your autograph? For my kids, of course ;-)