Spartan seacock thread question

[Rachel]

I'm in the process of replacing all of my through-hulls and seacocks, and I've been offered someone else's cast-off Spartan seacocks. While I'm not sure I would buy them new (if I buy new I think I'll go with the Conbraco ball versions), I do love their basic bronze goodness, and if they are usable and sound, I would probably like to use them. I realize that they need periodic maintenance, but I think that will be okay.

I took one apart and the barrel looked to be in good condition, so I think with a bit of servicing they would be good to go.

These seacocks come either with a standard hose barb, or with a male threaded upper portion (onto which you put an adapter to get a hose barb). The seacocks I have access to are all of the threaded-on-top variety, so I would need adapters. My question is whether the upper threads are NPS or NPT (I assume it's one of the two). I looked on Spartan's website to no avail, and even called them and spoke to three different people there, none of whom knew. Hmmph.

I'm concerned because all of the seacocks currently have "standard" bronze pipe fittings on top of the seacocks (then adapters screwed into them), and since they are NPT, then if the seacocks were NPS and they were just forced together.... not so good. The fittings are clearly on more than just one or two top threads of the seacocks. Saving money is good, and having classic bronze seacocks might be nice, but only if they're not buggered up.

The Spartan fittings (they sell their own adapters) are the type that you can hold in whatever position you want, then tighten by twisting a ring until it seats (think of a garden hose connector). I was told this might mean they were NPS, but no-one was certain.

Here are photos of the basic seacock and of one of the Spartan adapters, for reference:





Gee, how do my posts get so long-winded? I could have just asked the question.

[bcooke]

I would think NPS for the same reason you already mentioned. I would be very surprised if the nut on the adaptor fitting was a tapered thread. It just wouldn't make sense.

You could lay a straight edge/small ruler/whatever across the tops of the threads and you should be able to tell if they are tapered. It isn't a lot of taper but it is noticeable.

Wait a minute... just order the adaptors from Spartan and you will get whatever fits right? Or am I out of touch and they are a discontinued item?

That style bothers me a bit. No real viable reason though. I like the pipe threaded adaptors better.

-Britton

[Figment]

oh, but it's SO nice to just point the hose barb in the direction you want and tighten the nut instead of going around and around and then feeling some resistance as the tapered threads meet and wondering if you should try to go one more revolution, or will you only make it 270 degrees around and then have to back off and wonder if it's going to leak.

[bcooke]

well yes, there is that...

I had one of those 90 degree fittings get clogged with seaweed. I was able to get a pick tool in there to clear the blockage only to have the pick tool get stuck for a bit. It was pretty aggravating to say the least and I decided that in my next round of improvements I would only use straight tailpieces on my seacocks. Not always an option of course.

-Britton

[Rachel]

Answers to a couple of your questions:

The pipe fittings that are on the top of the seacocks now are just "regular old" bronze pipe fittings. I would want to take them off for a couple of reasons: 1) They are huge and clunky and tall; and 2) they have been on there for who knows how long and I can see things like white pipe dope in the joins; and 3) They aren't really the "shapes" I'd choose. I also believe they must be NPT threads.

If they were NPT and were forced onto the NPS threads of the top of the seacock, I figured the threads would now be damaged.... right?

Spartan still has the 90? adapters in all the sizes, but those actually aren't what I would want for most of my seacocks. They don't have many of the straight sizes left (they told me they aren't making them anymore and just have old ones on the shelves). I was just mentioning the 90? Spartan adapters because I thought they might give a clue as to the type of threads they are.

Groco makes some female thread-to-hose-barb adapters, which they call "tail pieces," so if the threads were okay on the seacocks, and the Grocos were the same type of thread, I'd be in business. The Grocos don't say what type of thread they are, but I see they do have gaskets, so perhaps they are NPS...?

This feels like a lot of dithering, but I hate to not use perfectly good bronze seacocks. OTOH I hate to put in seacocks with dodgy threads. And I still think it's weird that no one at Spartan knew.

R.

[Tim]

It sounds to me like the used Spartan seacocks simply aren't the deal for you. Just because they are being offered doesn't mean you should accept. It just doesn't make sense to try and make something work that just isn't going to work for whatever reason.

Proceed with buying the ones you actually want and forget about the Spartan ones. Onwards and upwards.

[Rachel]

I see your point, Tim, and that's likely what I will do. Who knew it would be so difficult to find out what type of threads they have on the top - especially when the company is still in business. It's a shame, since they're in nice shape and look well made and infinitely servicable.

[JonnyBoats]

If I may chime in with a contrarian point of view?

If you can use these seacocks, would be happy with them, and you can save a bunch of money (lots of ifs), why not go with them?

To my way of thinking, it really doesn't matter if they are NPS or NPT. The threads in question are on the inboard side of the seacock, and not particulary a safety issue. Since these are hardly high pressure lines, I am sure that teflon tape or Rectorseal would do a fine job of keeping them from dripping.

[Figment]

If they were NPT and were forced onto the NPS threads of the top of the seacock, I figured the threads would now be damaged.... right?

There's one way to find out. You have two hands and at least one functioning eyeball, right? ;)

[Rachel]

Are you saying I'm too cerebral? Heh.

I did actually try to thread one seacock on top of another (it was the only other NPS thing I had handy - definitely not ABYC ;) but it was inconclusive. Then I went into information-gathering mode, which some might say I get carried away with (they're wrong, of course).

Guess I'll take another look at the actual items in question, and give them the "two hands and one eyeball" test.

Rachel

[bcooke]

Yes, Rachel, you are too cerebral.

That is okay. We love you anyway ;-)

There are two types of people on this forum. Those that talk about it endlessly, and those that shut up and just do it. I think you know where I sit on that fence. :-) This year I promise to do everything I promised to do last year...

-Britton

[dasein668]

There are too types of people on this forum.

There are also types of people? You better watch out: the militant grammarian that runs this place might issue you demerits!

[bcooke]

I have no idea what you are talking about...

hehe

[Capn_Tom]

I was not even aware of the Conbraco valves before. Thanks for pointing out another option. I was planning on using new Groco seacocks throughout to replace my old tapered plug (disintegrated plug) Grocos. Any thoughts on Conbraco vs Groco would be appreciated.

[Rachel]

Ooh, a question right up my cerebral, information-gathering alley. After reading conflicting information (or no information) about several brands/models of seacock, I made a few calls to the manufacturers. Here's what I found out:

1) Conbraco (Apollo): All bronze wetted components. Chromium-plated bronze ball. Flat (pressed? stamped?) steel handle (not sure what type of steel). I believe these are made in the U.S.

2) Groco (the more-expensive ones, which now have a round base, but which are in the midst of changing over to a triangular base): Bronze in the main, but with 316 stainless ball and stem. Cast bronze handle. Made in the U.S.

3) Groco (the less-expensive ones that have long had a triangular base and that have the stamped steel, rubber covered handle): Bronze body with chromium plated brass (I believe) ball. Brass stem. (Stem used to be stainless but they had a problem with breakage and getting good steel so switched to brass.) Not made in the U.S.

4) Spartan: As already shown above, traditional, all-bronze, barrel type seacock. I was surprised to hear, when I called them, that they are more-or-less just selling what stock they have, and not necessarily making new ones. Now, I'd like to confirm that before anyone takes it as gospel (and their main parts person was out-of-town when I called), but when I was asking why they didn't have all the sizes of seacock-to-hose-barb adapters, that's what I understood to be the reason.

5) Perko: All-bronze construction with cast handle and acetal (plastic) ball. Round base. U.S. made. I liked these and they were up at the top of my list. However, I'm surprised these aren't carried more places, and I didn't get a good answer as to why. All of the distributors I called said they'd have to order them, and Perko had a six-week lead time (confirmed by calling Perko). I did see them at a few online retail sites.

In my opinion, the only ones I would shy away from are the less-expensive Grocos with the brass stem. I would have to have more info. on the mfg. status of the Spartans, if I were considering them.

If for some reason you really liked the upper-end Grocos with the round base, now would be the time to buy them, while there is still stock on hand.

Okay, back to your previously scheduled actual-getting-things-done-instead-of-talking-about-them ;-)

Rachel

PS to Capn_Tom: I'm not saying you necessarily want to save your tapered-plug Grocos, but they did have some sizes of replacement plug lying around at Downwind Marine in San Diego when I was there. They are a fabulous, "Mom & Pop" chandlery geared towards cruisers, and they'd be happy to take a mail order from someone out-of-town/state/country. They even take orders via SSB.

[Tim]

5) Perko: All-bronze construction with cast handle and acetal (plastic) ball. Round base. U.S. made. I liked these and they were up at the top of my list.

I used the Perko seacocks in the daysailor. I liked them, although the plastic ball seemed like a strange choice and didn't really excite me. I'd prefer a 316SS ball like in the high-end Groco BV series.

I liked the large, round flange and the hefty bronze handle, though.



All in all, I still like the high-end Groco BV series best. I can even learn to accept the new triangular bases (though I still think triangles are terrible shapes for things, given the way a torque load can tend to press a "point" into the hull or backing plate or what have you, rather than the more even load distribution afforded by a round base).

I really don't like the cheesy steel handles on the Conbracos and others, and would choose a seacock with a bronze handle anytime I use one in the future. I have Conbracos (Apollo) on Glissando and they're OK, but not great. You get what you pay for.

[Rachel]

Here's a follow-up on my original question (what type of thread is on the inboard end of a Spartan seacock):

I took one of the aforementioned seacocks, and removed the common (NPT) pipe fitting that was on the inboard end of it. By that time I was pretty sure the seacock threads were not NPT, since the fitting had only engaged a couple of threads (yikes) and there was heavy use of white "pipe tape."

I spent a while looking around for something that had straight threads, so that I could try that out, but didn't come up with anything (another seacock was too cumbersome) -- and then my eyes lighted on some leftover "nuts," of the type that come with through-hulls, but that you don't use when you put a seacocks on them. Aha, something easy to work with that absolutely for sure had straight threads.

The ring didn't want to go on at first, but some steady threading (had to get through some leftover pipe tape and some no-doubt-messed-up threads) finally succeeded, and they went on like..... they were meant to. Since the NPT fittings had only engaged a few threads, I got down to "good" threads pretty fast.

So, I can officially say that Spartan seacocks have NPS (straight) threads on both sides. Guess I should call Spartan and let them know ;-)

Rachel