What to look for (or look out for) when purchasing a Triton

[Bob Macey]

I found a 1961 Triton close to home...and fell in love with her. She has been out of the water for two years, but was actively sailed on the Great Lakes before that. She has a bit of mildew here and there down below and I am hoping to not have to do much more than clean and paint her insides as I do not have the time for much else.

What is the best way to really evaluate her condition as I cannot handle a project boat? Can I trust a professional surveyer to know what to look for when giving her a once over? What would you recommend I suggest to the surveyor to specifically evaluate?

What would make you walk away from a Triton?

Thanks you very much for any and all replies!

Bob Macey
St. Paul, MN

[The Good Goose]

Bob

I would look first for Deck Delamination. Try to do it on a day above freezing. take a plastic screwdriver handle and tap on the surface of the deck about every two inches be especially vigilant around any fittings that are bolted to the deck. If you hear a hollow sound then the core is compromised. Look closely around the maststep see if the deck looks compressed. Check the beam under the step look for signs of leakage and tap it to determine if it is solid. Sails are another issue you might want to take them to a sailmaker for an evaluation. Ask how old they are. If they have been sailed for more then 10 years they are probably ready to be replaced. Inspect the mast and rigging. Look for split swedge fittings and broken wires either of these indicate a need for new rigging. check for cracks on the mast and boom. Look at the running rigging frayed halyards will need replacement. Check chainplates as well.;

The electrical system on most tritons is minimal so it probably won't be an issue. The engine is another story. Unless you are skilled at such things you might want to have a mechanic check the engine. Replacement is a big expense.

Serious hull damage is rare on tritons. Their hulls are so thick they rarely sustain serious damage. That being said whenever I look at a boat I empty every locker and take out every drawer to look for any signs of repairs to the hull.

One area I forgot to mention is the base of the bulkheads. This area often has alot of rot.

When you are looking to go sailing rather then work on a boat I think a good thing to do is to see if the owner kept up with the little things. Are the lines in decent shape are the ends whipped or taped or are they frayed messes. Is the engine somewhat clean and the bilge free of debris. Are the sails clean and folded or stuffed in a bag. If these most visible of details are neglected you can be sure there are a hundred other things you will find after you buy the boat that need attention.

None of the things mentioned above would preclude me from buying a boat but I would definately want the price to reflect that. You will need a survey to insure the boat anyway so ask around and find a good surveyor in your area.after you have given the boat a thorough going over and make your offer contingent on the boat passing the survey.

Great boats I couldn't be happpier with mine
Brock Richardson

[Tony G]

Bob,
I strongly suggest using a surveyor if you don't want a project boat. They will flesh-out anything which may be or become a problem and you can base your purchasing decision on that. Having said that, if you think she's in need of too much repair work drop us a note. St Paul is in the area and I'm a sucker for another project boat. Good luck, Tony G

[Tim]

Most Tritons need quite a bit of work, but maybe you've found one that had been well-maintained and has only recently been stored. They are out there, but are sadly few and far between.

Brock hit upon most of the well-known areas that you should be concerned about. If you get lucky enough to find a Triton that, by some miracle, does not have deck core saturation, rot, and top-skin delamination, then you're halfway home. This is by far the biggest (and most potentially expensive) problems you might have to face. When you have the boat surveyed, tell the surveyor to start on the decks--you might save both of you a lot of time if the survey turns up bad decks. Find out if there's a reduced survey fee if the survey is ended early--as in immediately after the deck inspection. Why bother with a full survey if you know from the first step that the boat is not what you had hoped? Since it sounds like you're not a do it yourselfer, hiring out the standard deck recore job is cost-prohibitive in most cases.

The other issues are less major, and can be dealt with easily one by one. However, if you find that there are, say, half a dozen other issues, things can start to get out of hand. One thing leads to another, and before you know it you can be in over your head, either project-wise or financially. Even an engine that runs at the time of the survey can cause major headaches later, so prepare yourself for how you might handle that possibility.

It is well worth it to get a careful and detailed survey. I recommend you interview a few surveyors in the area to see if they have experience in this sort of boat. A person who surveys mostly powerboats, for example, or much larger and more luxurious sailboats is quite likely to be out of his element inspecting a simple Triton, especially if the boat's not in great shape. Why do I say this? Well, some surveyors can't get by the little stuff to look at the big picture, and because they are used to more expensive boats in generally well-maintained condition, sometimes it's like they blow a fuse or something, and simply cannot manage to get themselves through the whole survey without a lot of head-shaking and lecturing about stuff that might not really be relevant to your overall interest in the boat.

That said, you want as much detail as possible out of your survey and your surveyor. Find one who is a good fit for you, and for the boat you're looking at. Be sure to detail your own intentions and what sorts of things would be deal-breakers for you, as the surveyor can inspect the boat specifically with your information in mind. It helps!

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

[Bob Macey]

More specific questions on this Triton...

Four things scared me about this boat...

(1) the rudder looked like it was near death. It was made of two pieces of wood. I have photos if anyone would be interested. Is a new rudder an expensive aquistion?

(2) there was a fair amount of mildew on the cabin ceiling and the bilge had water, despite the fact that the boat has been on the hard for 2 years. Now, we did have a VERY snowy winter up here (several feet of snow), so its possible that this water is meltwater. Right?

(3) The door between the salon and head could not be shut. Does this mean that the support for the mast above is compressing?? Or could it be simply that the wood was swollen from the moisture?

(4) The boat was covered with a dark brown tarp and thus, the boat was pitch dark inside. I was forced to examine the boat with a flashlight. Outside it was bright and sunny. When we opened up the engine compartment, I could "see thru" the thru hulls where the cockpit drains connect as it appeared the fiberglass was semi-transparent. If the cabin had been lit, I don't think this would have been visible. Do you think this is normal?


Thanks Again for Listening

[dasein668]

(1) It may not be that bad. Original rudders were in fact 2 pieces of mahogany attached together with drift pins. It is not unusual for the seam to be clearly visible. But if it IS bad, you could build a new rudder pretty easily. And inexpensively, as long as the rudder shaft is ok.

(2) Mildew indicates to me that the boat is and has been generally damp. The water in the bilge could be meltwater, although you say the boat is covered... how well? More likely it is a combination of sea water and or fresh water (perhaps from the hose used in winterizing the engine?the engine WAS winterized, right?) mixed with the general bilge nastiness of oil/fuel/biological scooge. Yum.

(3) If its the door between the saloon and head it is probably just swollen wood. The mast support beam is over the opening between the head and the v-berth.

(4) It's hard to say from your description?could be bad or could be fine. In my boat, if the boat is covered and I go up into the v-berth on a bright day it appears as though the top few inches of the hull (near the hull-deck joint) is full of pinholes. Close inspection however reveals that it is just light showing through. Very strange effect.

There's my 2 cents. Normal disclaimers apply!

[Tim]

Bob,

Fiberglass is translucent. If the hull were not covered with paint or gelcoat, you'd be able to see that amber glow over the entire thing; you can read by the light coming through a fiberglass laminate. All you were seeing is a spot that apparently has no paint and gelcoat on it, which is common enough. Nothing to worry about, at least based on that description. When one first learns about the translucence of fiberglass, it tends to be in a situation just like you have described, and it is disconcerting at first. But any thickness of fiberglass remains translucent by nature, until covered with paint or another opaque coating.

I think water in the bilge in a stored boat is always a bad sign, frankly. It is a sign of neglect. A properly-stored and covered boat does not collect water in the bilge. That said, it's unlikely that any harm has come of it, and most boats never have dry bilges (perhaps 1 in 40?) but if there's a substantial amount of water, you do have to worry about possible freeze damage. A small amount doesn't really hurt anything, but does point to a hands-off attitude towards boat maintenance. At the least, the presence of water suggests additional vigilence in your, and a surveyor's, inspections.

If the worst problem you find on the boat is the rudder, then buy the boat. Solid wood rudders expand and contract depending on the moisture content of the wood, and of the surrounding air. When a boat has been on the hard for a couple seasons, it's typical for the seams in the wood to open up. This is also common during the winter, when the air mass is very dry. Usually, they swell back up when the boat is launched. What sort of condition is the wood in? If the wood appears punky, severely checked, or warped, you may have to consider rebuilding the rudder. If the rudder appears relatively straight and true, with only the seams vetween the planks visible, then it's probably OK. Please feel free to send pictures of the rudder (and whatever else) to me at [email protected], and I'll post them here. No limit, so send away! I can tell a lot about the boat from pictures.

Mildew and such are signs of high moisture trapped inside the boat with no means of escape. Probably, the boat has been stored the entire time with water in the bilge (and quite possibly in the decks), and covered the whole time. In the steamy summers, this is a recipe for tropical fun--even if the boat was uncovered during the summers, but especially if it remained covered. Not only does mildew (and other mold) form in this environment, but over the long term the mildew attracts additional moisture, enhancing the problem. Dampness in boats causes more problems with more systems and structures than any other single problem, in my opinion. The power of water in all its forms is impressive!

Note further that mildew on the overhead is frequently a telltale sign of damp or saturated core above, inside the decks. Careful inspection is required!

The door might be swollen from the high moisture levels in the cabin, though the doors are plywood and relatively stable overall. It also could point to an improperly-supported hull, or some such, that has distorted the hull and/or bulkhead in such a way as to prevent the proper operation of the door. That's the worst-case scenario, and is less likely than the simple moisture swelling, but should not be discounted out of hand. Problems with the deck can also contribute to the slight deformation that might lead to an improperly operating door. Check it out. Even Tritons change shape out of the water, and it's not unusual to find the sort of problem you're describing.

What you are describing so far is a pretty typical Triton, one that, from the sounds of it, will require at least some work. Any and all information and pictures you provide can help me, and others here, offer opinions that might determine whether you pursue the boat further or not. How many issues (whatever their extent) you are willing, or able, to deal with will determine if this is the boat for you or not, and whether it is worth hiring a survey or not. If the boat's a basket case, and we can determine it beforehand, you probably would rather not waste a survey on it.

[Tim]

Here are two dozen photos of the Triton that Bob is looking at. Comments follow.



















































Overall comments:
I've certainly seen worse-looking Tritons. What I see here is fairly typical. A good cleaning would work wonders on the interior here. The amount of water I see in the bilge looks minor and shouldn't be a cause for major worries (shallow bilge, I assume, not deep). That bilge is not too bad, overall. A good cleaning would be nice. Of course you'll want to keep that stylish green cabin sole color! ;<)

The mildew is not particularly bad, at least not in the areas visible in the photos. It's not like the whole interior is dark with growth.

The galley has been modified to fit that 2-burner stove. Looks OK from here. Obviously the interior could use a little sprucing up and personalization, but that's par for the course.

It looks like the wiring has at least partially been redone--a new (homemade) panel, some flexible conduit and such through the engine room, etc. Check the wiring over carefully, especially the AC circuits. Often, owner-installed wiring is a nightmare of cheap materials and untuitable practices. It may all be fine, but if the wiring is household type solid copper (AC), or automotive type stranded (DC), then a redo is in order. The panel looks as if it was put together as cheaply as possible, which might be perfectly serviceable, but needs to be checked out.

It's an older Triton, since the small ports are the old type, the cockpit has the vertical hatch openings to the lockers, and there's no liner in the salon. Do you know the hull number?

I assume since the boat is covered that you really haven't had much, if any, of a look at the decks forward of the cockpit. Regardless of the shape of the rest of the boat, the decks require a thorough inspection. I would expect to find a number of issues there, unless they've already been addressed. Isolated areas containing core rot or top-skin delamination can be sailed around, but if the whole deck is bouncy or soft, it will require the standard recore that many of us know so well. Definitely get a thorough look at the decks yourself before going much further in your buying process.

Specific Comments:
This photo shows the tabbing on the forward side of the main salon bulkhead, in the hanging locker. Is this a separation, or is it just dirt and gunk around the rough edges of the tabbing?


The rudder looks fine--not perfect, but all you are seeing there is the normal separation between planks. Canyou see any significant warpage of the rudder, when you view it from astern? If not, you're in good shape, at least for the moment. If the boat's been in fresh water for a long time, deterioration of the bronze rudder post should be less of an issue than it might be otherwise, but still try and check it out for signs of dezincification or other damage.

This closeup shows that the pintles and gudgeons have been "faired" (I use the term loosely) over at some point. Of course the cheap polyester bondo junk is separating and cracking, which is what you are seeing here. Best to remove it and have a look at these bronze fittings, also.


You (Bob) indicate that the boat is listed at $9500. That's high, except for Tritons in good condition with newer engines, decent sails, and other recent upgrades. If this boat has old sails (reported), and older engine witn no signs of recent improvements (reported), older rigging (not yet determined), and ancient, worthless electronics (as visible in the photos), that asking price is up in pipe dream territory. If you find any deck or other structural problems, the value of the boat drops dramatically (or you might not even be interested).

People want Tritons, and sometimes the values end up slightly inflated as a result. Slightly inflated. That doesn't mean, hoever, that it's wroth paying way too much for a boat that needs some significant work. I honestly don't know yet how much work this particular one will need. The cosmetic stuff and wiring is no big deal, but the decks remain a big question mark. So does the actual condition of the engine and rig.

You need to get a look at, and inspect, the deck. Cover off for full light. I don't think you can make a reasonable offer on this boat (which is needed before having a survey done) without first getting a better idea about the decks. Walk firmly around all deck areas; jump up and down, whatever. Stocking feet work well, as your shoe soles can sometimes lead to incorrect impressions. Feel free to use a small steel hammer to sound the decks; it works better than anything else and won't hurt the nonskid. Obviously some discretion in the use of hammers is required to avoid marring any surfaces. Decks in good condition return clean, sharp sounds with little tactile feedback through the hammer. You'll hear dull, dead sounds when you find saturation, and the hammer will bounce dramatically when you encounter debonding or top-skin delamination; it will also sound hollow in these areas. Any hardware penetration is suspect, especially stanchions and pulpits, mast step, and chainplates.

If you're still awake, then this ought to help point you in the right direction. My mind is swimming, so enough for now. Hope this helps, and I'm sure more commentary will follow.

[Figment]

Is it just me, or is that just about the worst possible place to mount that battery charger?

;)

[Bob Macey]

I will take another look at this boat when the weather cooperates, and check the deck for delaminiation. I am pleased to hear that what I thought could be trouble, may well prove to be no big deal (at least for Tim!)

In defense of the asking price, its only fair for me to point out that this price includes delivery to Bayfield, Wisconsin which is a couple of hundred miles away. That has to be worth $1,000 I would guess. And the boat has new cockpit and cabin cushions. And a new autopilot.

Couple of other good things that don't add to the value of the boat, but they do make a difference: (1) The owner is a straight shooter, which I really appreciate. He answers every question honestly and without hesitation. (2) All the original documentation is included (receipts, sales brochure from 1961 etc) which is very cool...

[Tim]

In defense of the asking price, its only fair for me to point out that this price includes delivery to Bayfield, Wisconsin which is a couple of hundred miles away. That has to be worth $1,000 I would guess. And the boat has new cockpit and cabin cushions. And a new autopilot.

Fair enough. So we'll be generous and call all this stuff as being worth $1000 total, as far as your perceived value goes. Perceived value is a real component to any sale, and certain things (like those you listed) definitely can sway a sale.

That still leaves the boat at $8500. For that money, here's what I would expect out of the boat:

1. Relatively sound decks with only small, isolated areas of core or delamination problems (such as small-diameter problems around stanchions, for example). Problems like this can be more or less ignored in the short term, but will still require attention at some point in the not too distant future. Anything more severe than one of these minor problems would indicate a substantial reduction in price/offer. And only you know how much of this sort of problem you might be willing to accept for a given price, if at all.

2. Sound engine in good working order with no work required at this time, beyond routine maintenance.

3. Operating and safe electrical system.

4. Rigging and sails that will get you through at least a season or two before requiring upgrades.

5. Sound bulkheads and mast support beam, with no significant problems noted.

6. No other major projects or repairs needed immediately. There may be a host of issues such as hoses, clamps, or related items that could require attention, though none of these should be in immediate need. Cosmetics and minor personal upgrades are for you, as the buyer, to determine how important they are for the overall deal.

Remember that a theoretical Triton in excellent cosmetic and structural condition (inside and out), with new diesel, new sails, new canvas, all regular sailing and navigation equipment, and a host of other upgrades might fetch 16K on the fair market. These upgrades are worth at least twice that, but the boat can still only fetch that much in the end. That's the Triton market. Keep that in mind when negotiating price on any boat in lesser condition.

Finally, the only true value that counts--and by definition the market value--is what you, or any buyer, is willing to pay at any given time, assuming that you (or other buyer) are well informed and properly motivated. Perhaps you feel good enough about the boat to offer close to the asking price, but a survey might change that drastically. Or might not, too! The intent of all this information is to do its best to help you determine what it might be worth for you. This info is based more or less on what I think the boat might be worth, when compared to the couple dozen that I have viewed and inspected over the years.

Good luck!

[dasein668]

For what its worth, on the price end, we ended up paying 8000 + tax for Dasein (668). Ror that price we got a 4 year old Yanmar 2GM20F diesel engine, full compliment of modern electronics, new (1 year old throughout when I say new...) lifelines, new roller furling unit, new 135% jib for the furler, and new standing rigging. Decks have some moisture (significant in the side deck areas near stanchion bases) but no noticable delamination. Interior was reasonable. Saloon was pretty decent. Head and v-berth less so. That might give you more insight for comparison purposes.

Note that the final price most likely will end up lower than the asking price too. Likely more so than with any other purchase. Dasein was listed at 12,500. We low-balled the asking price at 10K when we placed our offer. Since the seller had already purchased a new boat, he accepted. After our survey we amended our offer down by another 3000, based largely on the deck moisture?our surveyor [no names wink wink] placed an estimated cost to repair and a fair market value price in the report which were invaluable in our renegoitation. Seller agreed to lower the price by 2K, not 3.

Our seller was motivated, so that may have helped us. We felt that we got a pretty good deal, but not a steal. Ultimately, that's all that really matters. As Tim says, the key is to determine what the boat is worth to you. We decided that the upgrades were worth the price we paid for the boat?a new diesel alone would be close to that?so we almost felt like we got the rest of the boat for free. Attitude like that can help with buyer's remorse, too!

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Tony G]

Bob
For what it's worth, Cross Country gave me a $3K bid to ship a 35 footer from North Carolina to northern MN. I've seen some very nice Tritons listed with enviable inventories in the ball park of the asking price you're looking at. If you're comfortable with that dollar amount you may consider buying a coastal boat and shipping it home. Be careful of falling in love with a particular boat...a particular model or design, yes...a particular boat, well, that may cause you to see it through rose colored glasses. Case and point, the beat-up sorry excuse for an Ensign in my back yard right now. I'm not trying to swoop in on your deal, I'm 'just straight shootin' ya. Tony G