Non-Triton w/liner - can it be changed?

[PenokeeBlue]

Hi folks,

Am earnestly Triton shopping, but have been momentarily distracted by a couple of other possibilities (as I wait for "my" Triton to show up). Both of the other boasts I'm considering have these molded inner liners that start as the sole and curve on around to form the galley counters, head platform, settee bases, etc.

Of course, being an individualist (and not wanting to live in something that resembles a shower stall), I wonder how much of this can be modified. I realize it's possible to cut anything apart and change it; but what I'm wondering is, how do I know if the builder was relying on any of it as being structural? It seems I've read somewhere about some manufacturers counting on the liner for structural purposes, but I'm more familiar with the Triton style of building.

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about "regular" athwartships bulkheads and their tabbing. I just want to know whether - if I buy one of these boats - I'll have the future option of "remodeling" and possibly substituting some wood for the "shower stall" parts.

I know that as Triton owners, you don't have to worry about these things, but I suspect you all know a lot about other boats too.

Thanks ahead.

[Tim]

The answer: it depends. There's no hard and fast rule one way or another. Sometimes the liners are purely cosmetic, while other times they are part of an important structural grid. If you mentioned a specific boat, I might be able to tell you off the cuff.

To better tell yourself when looking at a boat, dig deep into lockers and spaces. Look for signs of heavy tabbing, and particularly for tabbing that seems to be on every seam. Look at the main bulkheads to see if they are firmly tabbed to the hull, deck and liner; if not, then the liner is probably structural. Sometimes you see bulkheads just screwed to the liner. The heavier the construction of the parts of the liner you can see, the more likely it is that the liner serves some structural purpose. These are just hints; only by looking directly at a specific boat can you know for sure.

Liners in boats like some of the Cape Dories don't tend to be structural, but you have to look at each one separately nonetheless. I always find the liners in some of the Cape Dories (older 28s in particular) to be highly objectionable. I've not seen one in person, but I hear that later model Alberg 30s (mid 70s-80s) have horrible liners inside.

The modern-era production boats (which I'm sure you're not looking at) rely more on the liners and built-in gridworks for hull support. I find it's usually pretty clear how much the boat relies on the liner once you get in and start looking around.

Liners are installed to save the builder time (and therefore money) during construction, and certainly not because they make better boats. I hate them in all ways: they limit access to the hull and deck for inspection, maintenance, or emergencies, they look cheap and plastic (and they are), and they are very wasteful of space.

Modifying a be-linered boat is often more difficult than a stick-built boat. A boat like this would not be my choice for one to modify, unless there was no other option. That said, I believe that in many cases you could easily remove the entire liner with no dire consequences. The problem I see is that it would be harder to make incremental changes in the layout with a linered boat, but again: it all depends.

[PenokeeBlue]

Thanks for the info, Tim. Two boats I am considering, specifically, are the Cape Dory 25 (non-D), and Eastward Ho 24. I guess I have to decide whether I want 4' of headroom or 7' ;-)

Actually, that being said, I don't have that much of a problem with the CD's liner - it's mostly a pleasant headliner. Unless I decide to get radical and eliminate the V-berth in favor of a tool bench, which is something I've always thought about. Then I'd be getting into it more, because the whole V-berth is fiberglass, IIRC, with no central "aisle" like the Triton has.

The Eastward Ho is just one big liner! (more like the CD 25D). I'm not sure I'd need to take the whole thing out, but big chunks would have to go! There has got to be a ton of wasted space behind it, and, like you said, what if you need to get to the hull-sides (and how to clean behind it?). I could perhaps be okay with the galley (add wood to the outside to soften the looks?), and even the cabin sole, but not the whole darned thing. Still, considering that the boat is only 24' and weighs nearly as much as a Triton, I doubt (hope) they are not counting on the liner for structural support, but you never know.

At any rate, thanks for the input.

PenokeeBlue (otherwise known as Rachel)

[bcooke]

Is that the "Rachel" that recently introduced herself to the Yahoo! Triton group?

I wouldn't add much to what Tim said only... well... maybe I do have a couple of thoughts, and too much time on my hands...

I would first suggest waiting for the boat you want rather than modifying something to your liking unless you get really desperate. Modifying adds a ton of work that could be unnecessary if you just wait a bit. Less work = good = more sailing/cruising. I looked at several late Alberg 30's with their molded interiors and was starting to be tempted by their availability. I am now very glad I waited for my Triton. Even the little bit I wanted to change has turned into big projects.

As for headroom. Go for standing headroom (IMHO). I spent over two months cruising in a boat with sitting headroom and those rainy/foggy/dreary days get very long when you are forced to sit all day. (Still a fantastic trip though)

Best idea, wait for a Triton. Excellent boat, standing headroom, no liner, cheap, and lots of friends to help you out. There are enough published webpages out there to make any project you contemplate easy. Everything has been thought out for you. Just follow the recipe and choose your colors to taste!

-Britton

[Tim]

I would first suggest waiting for the boat you want rather than modifying something to your liking unless you get really desperate. Modifying adds a ton of work that could be unnecessary if you just wait a bit. Less work = good = more sailing/cruising. I looked at several late Alberg 30's with their molded interiors and was starting to be tempted by their availability. I am now very glad I waited for my Triton.

Well put. I've often written much the same thing to other questioners.

Rushing into any boat simply because it fills a void is rarely the right choice, when deep down there's something specific you want. The CD 25 may be a decent enough boat, but is a far cry from some of these others in terms of size, particularly headroom.

Small projects are part of the fun of any boat, and the personalization that occurs as a result is satisfying and well worth the efforts. But major interior and/or structural and design changes require a desire for the project itself, not just for the end result. Never get a project boat when all you want is to go sailing. Hold out for the boat you really want, and then conform it to your exact needs as you go, to the extent you desire.

[PenokeeBlue]

How cool to log back on at lunch time and have two more replies. Be long winded! I love to hear what others think.

And yup, I'm the same Rachel who recently joined the Triton mailing list.

As for the boats, I think I've pretty much ruled out the CD25 (maybe). It's not trailerable with any vehicle I own, and I guess I'm thinking that if that's the case, might as well have the headroom of a Triton.

OTOH, I guess it's all what you're used to. I've spent a lot of time travelling/camping/sort-of living in my Volvo station wagon, and I know that in comparison, a standard van feels like a palace; yet it doesn't quite have "standing" headroom.

Still, as I plan (hope) to live aboard, I think I'm leaning toward the "real" headroom. I also like the large windows of the Triton and similar boats, even if you do have to beef them up a little to go offshore. Perhaps that's a rebound from cruising on a Westsail 32 - relatively dark inside and when you look out the smallish portholes you see ... the inside of the bulwark (I often commented that I planned to paint murals on the inside of it ;-)

Thanks again,

Rachel

[Guest]

Well put. I've often written much the same thing to other questioners

I think I probably got it from you, Tim. I noticed you overlooked the subject so I jumped at the opportunity to stand on your podium. Nice view from up there...

Living in a volvo? Are we related? Been there, done that, and have the bad back to prove it. Trailerable boats have their place (I own one) but I have found the utility to be less than I thought. Launching is a pain and finding a place to launch a trailersailor can be tough unless it is very shoal draft. Yes, there is the centerboard option but then the inside of your small boat gets even smaller. I have dipped the rear end of my truck too deep and too often and have replaced the entire rear end at least once. Even if you are smarter than me and keep your tow vehicle dry you still need a gas guzzler for towing which means the other 99% of the time you are driving more vehicle than you need. There is no money saved with a trailerable boat; only the ability to change scenery quickly and that comes with a cost.

Those big bright Triton windows can be beefed up or covered for passages pretty easily. I wouldn't let that be a factor at all. Westsails are excellent sea boats. The problem with real "sea boats" I think, is that very little time cruising is spent "at sea". Those little portholes and high bulwarks are great for broaching in high seas but not so good for swinging at anchor off a beach where 95% of cruising and liveaboards happen.

Living on a Triton could be considered tough - pretty narrow, not much storage space, small galley area, but compared to a volvo or a van it is a BIG improvement.

-Britton

[bcooke]

I have to stop jumping from my e-mail notification. It is ruining my message count. Funny thing, Tim, is that the page is showing me logged in either way.

-Britton

[Tim]

It's all part of my plan...after all, I don't want anyone eclipsing my post count. :<)

I don't know anything about the email notification deal, as I don't use it. The "new post" icons work just fine to show what's new each visit (when logged in).