single line reefing

[Robert The Gray]

hello all,
Does any one have an idea weather it would be wise to try a single line reefing system on a triton? I would use large sheeve blocks to reduce friction, and add a light outhaul to the first reef clew for better sail shape. I am running out of room on my cabin top for the lines lead aft and wondered if I could symplify things by going with a single line system. It seems from what I have read, harken cataloge and various otheers, that 27 feet is about the upper limit on single line reefing. Opinions?

Robert

[Figment]

I hate that they publish those guidelines in terms of boat length. Totally irrelevant. grumblegrumblemumble.

Anyway.
I'm not a fan of single line reefing. Particularly for a boat (such as the triton) which spends such a large proportion of sailing time under reefed main. There will always be friction, and this friction will always require that the tack tension be honkin tight just so that the tension at the clew is anywhere near what you want it to be. As inconvenient as this is in the moment, the real detriment is that over time the sail shape becomes distorted.
Your thought to add an outhaul for clew tension remedies this, but then I wonder why bother with the complicated rigging of a single-line system if you're just going to add another line?
What happens when it's time to take in the second reef?

Space on the cabintop. Will there ever be enough?
This is a job for the good people at Spinlock!

[Robert The Gray]

Thanks figment,
I thought I could take the high load line, the reef line, to the clutch, and rig the outhaul with a purchase to a cam cleat. To compleat my running rigging I will need to buy new , if I can't find used , two triple rope clutches and two triple deck orgainisers. one more single speed winch, three more turning blocks for the base of the mast. I am looking at around $600 - $700. I was looking for ways to save some dough. By lessening the rope clutches, and save some space.

thanks again
Robert

[Tim]

Stick with single line reefing. Run the reefing lines to the forward end of the boom, where you will have a reefing hook installed. All you need is a rope clutch (a double if you have two reefs) and possibly a winch. It makes the most sense with this arrangement to also keep your main halyard on the mast, so you can go forward and take care of all reefing operations in one location.

This method is so simple, well proven, and low in friction. And the hardware needed is significantely less. Be sure to check out Garhauer for bargain-like prices on rope clutches.

There's older information on my site about my reefing setup, but check back later this year when I convert all the stuff over to the new boom that I had built last year. I'll re-describe all my reefing and outhaul setups at that time.

[Figment]

Isn't the Oakland boat show coming up in a couple of weeks?
Seriously, stop by the Spinlock booth. There's an australian guy who really knows his stuff, and might even be able to tell you which of the local dealers will throw you a better bargain.

Edit: now that I think of it, with the exchange rates being what they are, Spinlock will have a hard time even coming close to Garhauer's prices.

[Figment]

A followup thought on the two triple clutches....
1 main halyard
2 foresail halyard
3 spin halyard
4 main outhaul
5 reef 1
6 reef 2

correct? or do you not fly a spinnaker?
How about your vang? is that lead aft through a clutch?

I think you might want to go with more than two triples. Clutches break, and parts (if not discontinued) can take time to arrive. Having at least one unoccupied clutch at the ready saves a bunch of mid-season heartache.
Most of the clutch makers do manufacture quad clutches, they just don't list them in their catalogs for some reason. Hunter, Catalina and Beneteau all use quad clutches, and they hafta come from somewhere, ya know?

I personally am not on board with the whole lead-everything-aft-to-cockpit movement, but I think it makes a lot more sense than lead-ALMOST-everything-aft-to-cockpit. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

oh, and buy a few replacement handles/levers when you buy the clutches. These hardware companies have a nasty habit of changing their clutch designs ever three years or so (just the time it takes for the plastic to get brittle) and ceasing support of old designs. It sucks to spend $500 on new clutches just because someone stepped on an open handle that was available for $20 six months ago.

...and just like that, your $600 budget became $1000. Further evidence to support the theory that EVERYTHING on a boat costs $1000.

[Tim]

Stick with single line reefing.

I need to clarify my post above. When I said "Stick with single line reefing", I meant stick with traditional reefing setup that uses a line at the aft end and a hook at the forward end. The way I worded that was confusing.

[Tim]

I personally am not on board with the whole lead-everything-aft-to-cockpit movement, but I think it makes a lot more sense than lead-ALMOST-everything-aft-to-cockpit. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

I agree with this. It makes no sense to bring some things aft and not others. If the reefing comes aft, the halyard must come aft, or vise-versa. This leads to beaucoup cluster-you-know-whatage potential in the tight confines of the cockpit, in my opinion, which is why I choose not to bring many lines aft.

I'm a proponent of having controls that are used simultaneously be located at the same place. Therefore, I ran my reefing lines forward to the gooseneck, so that I can control them at the same time as the halyard.

The only things I have run aft are those sail controls that are frequently tweaked during regular sailing: outhaul, cunningham, and boom vang. That's three lines already, which is more than enough mess at the forward end of the cockpit for me.

Hunter, Catalina and Beneteau all use quad clutches, and they hafta come from somewhere, ya know?

Many (most?) of these builders, and others, are typically happy, or at least willing, to sell certain items that they use on their production boats, which can be helpful when the items are not available through normal channels. It's worth contacting the builders if you see a piece of gear on their boats that you like, and see about buying it direct. I know that Sabre has sold many small hardware parts to regular people, and another friend has these really trick cockpit locker latches that he bought direct from Beneteau.

[Commanderpete]

I bought two triple deck organizers from Garhauer. Nice equiptment at a good price.

I was going to buy their rope clutches, but I thought they were....well...ugly.

You can always find new Spinlock rope clutches on ebay. I got two XAS triples. They usually sell for about $90 each.

I'll be adding a new reefing setup to the boom also. But, I'm kinda hesitant to add too much weight to the end of the boom. I'm concerned the boom might swing too forcefully.

[Figment]

The only things I have run aft are those sail controls that are frequently tweaked during regular sailing: outhaul, cunningham, and boom vang. That's three lines already, which is more than enough mess at the forward end of the cockpit for me.

I managed to steal a few hours of daysailing yesterday afternoon. Winds varied from 10-3-8-12-3 etc. throughout. After the Xth sail adjustment, I started to think seriously about running outhaul cunningham and vang aft.

But must this happen on the cabintop? Why not the boom? None of these controls swing more than 16" of line, so the dangling nuisance should be minimal. A trio of camcleats on the boom, far enough aft that they're within reach of the helm, not so far aft to require acrobatics to reach them on a run.

I've seen outhaul controlled on the boom, of course. I think I've even seen a vang run on the boom, but never all three. Perhaps I just haven't been looking.

Have any of you seen this rigged with any success (or failure)?

[Tim]

I can't picture how the lines could be led far enough aft on the boom to be reachable from the helm, without also being out of reach (from the helm, at least) when the boom is let out.

The benefit of running these basic mainsail controls aft along the cabin top is that they are always instantly reachable for easy control. These three controls are important to the sail shape, and also require frequent adjustments according to wind strength and apparent direction. Having to go forward to adjust any of these often means that it doesn't get done, particularly if sailing alone.

As to dangling: I find any dangles off the boom to be somehow in the way or at least annoying all the time, so I wouldn't particularly want even short lengths hanging around.

Personally, I will make easy access to these important controls a priority on any and all future boats I set up. I am completely sold on the easy access. I can't stand looking at a sail that is out of adjustment, and not being able to do anything easily about it!

[CharlieJ]

I'm definitely on Tim's side of the fence on this. I simply cannot see the need to run everything aft. I use a setup that goes to the mast. All my lines on the boom go thru turning blocks ( cheek blocks) on the boom and forward to just aft the gooseneck. I sit on the cabin top, wrap my legs around the mast and reef. Can pull down a reef in about 30 seconds, even in the dark.

I do not like single line systems. I think they are very unkind to the sail, since you pretty much HAVE to have it flogging at some point in the operation or you can't get the lines hauled tight. With a dual line ( or tack hook) you can keep the sail pretty much full or at least full, but not driving while you pull down the reef. And it takes much less effort.

And if you are single hand, then heave her to and reef. Just heave to on starboard, cause I ALWAYS have my main sail controls on starboard.

[Figment]

I can't picture how the lines could be led far enough aft on the boom to be reachable from the helm, without also being out of reach (from the helm, at least) when the boom is let out.

I don't have a dodger. Closehauled, I can easily reach up and grab the boom a foot forward of the (open) companionway hatch.
Your point is well taken, though. You're probably right about the dangles as well.

Back to the drawing board.

[Robert The Gray]

Just to finish up with my original post. I ended up with the leading all my controls aft. The PO had never attached any winch to the mast, it is a non-stock mast section, so I was left with the task of attaching a winch to the mast or leading things aft. They had all the blocks set up to turn things at the base of the mast so I went with that. I went with two triple rope clutches and three large cam cleats. I too feel that the best reefing system has everything in one spot. Here on the SF bay where I primarily sail singlehanded, leaving the helm and going to the mast to reef leaves the boat somewhat vulnerable to thrashing around. With the reefing lines, and halyards led aft I can both reef and unreef very quickly. I like using a tack reefing line rather than a hook because this lower adjustment allows more refinement to the sail shape, just like the cunningham. For some reason, perhaps it is the 20 year old main, the main halyard alone will not give me the luff tension I need. As far as clutter in the cockpit goes once the halyards are set, I coil them and leave them be. I feel that the process of furling down the halyards and setting the cockpit up for non-cluttered sailing challenges my tendencies towards improvisational sailing, but having everything ship-shape is one of the best ways to deal with emergencies. I use the three cam cleats for the outhaul, the cunningham, and the vang. All the main reefing controls, halyard, 1st reef tack, 1st reef clew go the the starboard triple clutch and the jib halyard and topping lift go to the port triple clutch. I have at times needed the second reef while beating into a opposing tide, in the 25 knts + range, and I may use the remaining port clutch for the 2nd reef clew line and use the hook for the tack, but then again I do not have a second headsail halyard either for the spin. or the assym. Then again I wouldn't use these sails until the light days of december. I get going 7+ knots downwind with a reefed main and my little 90% blade anyway. The boat is 44 years old, heavy, and with mature canvas. Why beat the old dog?

As far as putting sail controls on the boom, I am not sure what is so bad about having things on the cabin top. That back leeward corner of the boat is the worst place to fall from while reaching for some outhaul tweak on the boom. You are over and astern before your hair is wet.

Going sailing this afternoon, hope all is well and the gridiron matches favor the favorite teams of this forum. I am sure my local boys, the oakland raiders, qualify me for some sympathy, but since it is their bye week I am saved from anymore shutouts. It is all entertainment anyway.

R

[Figment]

That back leeward corner of the boat is the worst place to fall from while reaching for some outhaul tweak on the boom. You are over and astern before your hair is wet.

Just so you don't all think I'm COMPLETELY off my rocker, the idea was to locate the control point of the three lines about 5'6" from the FORWARD end of the boom. On a dead run with the boom out near 90degrees, they'd be outboard of the rail by a foot or so.
This is out of reach of the helm on that dead run, but a dead run isn't really the point of sail that needs the tweaking. Certainly 75% of all tweaking could be done with at least one foot in the cockpit.

Approaching my frustration from a completely different angle, I could leave all my controls where they are and get a tillerpilot.
I really don't mind going forward to make these adjustments. I mind the necessity to hustle back to the unattended helm to hold course.

Yep, it's a gridiron kinda day here.

[bcooke]

I really don't mind going forward to make these adjustments. I mind the necessity to hustle back to the unattended helm to hold course.

Poor man's tillerpilot; I put an eye bolt through the tiller at about the half way point and I had a couple of dedicated lines about 3 feet long with snaps. I just snapped the lines onto the tiller and tied one or both of them off to the jibsheet cleats. With a little fussing I could hold a course for ten minutes to a couple of hours. This all assumes you are not changing the tension on the sheets though. What am I thinking?...

Tying the tiller might help for a few minutes but an excuse for a tiller pilot would be very welcome in my book. If it were me I think I would leave the rigging alone and spend my money on the tiller pilot instead. You lose nothing on the rig and you gain the extra hand on the tiller.

Or you could let your wife to take the tiller now and then...

-Britton

[Figment]

right. I used to jam my telescoping tiller extension against the leeward coaming, but now that I've changed tillers I usually just turn the weather jibsheet around its cleat and then hitch it over the tiller.

Perhaps it's the corklike nature of my ultralight boat, or the sluglike nature of my notsolight body, but when I go forward it changes the balance of the boat enough to negate any lashing or propping of the tiller. the CLR moves forward with me, and the boat heads up. This is mostly true in light air.

You're right, I do need to start shoving the tiller into her hand more often, if for no other reason than to increase her comfort zone. But first she'd need to put down her drink and her magazine, erect herself from her position of lounge, etc...

but now we're completely off topic so I'll hush.

[bcooke]

Walking around can effect things but my Triton has proven pretty steady with the tiller lashed if you spend the time and treat her right - and if she is in a good mood. Somedays I can get away with moving around and somedays the boat veers off the first time I leave the cockpit. In my experience it was never very predictable - probably a wind angle thing.

And probably a good idea not the take the thread too far off topic. I am all for having everyone on board able to do all the jobs onboard but if your happiness is dependent on others' happiness then kicking the others out of a comfortable position would probably not be a productive solution to the unmanned tiller problem.

Tiller pilots seem pretty cool; they are relatively cheap; and I can still see Nathan's superior grin when he settled into his cockpit with a good book and let his new tiller pilot take him to Buck's harbor while Tim and I were held captive at our respective tillers last year. I want one for those light-wind-motoring days.

-Britton

[bcooke]

I don't have a dodger.

Oh, but you should!

They fold down quite nicely if you really prefer the no-dodger look but when the spray starts flying or you just want to sit on deck out of the wind then the dodger becomes a really beautiful thing.

-B.

[CharlieJ]

LOL- on board our boat the biggest problem with the wife and the tiller is getting it OUT of her hand.

She does let me steer down wind though- doesn't really like to do that. But upwind, she loves to wash the windows.

[Tim]

Mike,

Is there a reason why you don't want to consider bringing the cunningham et al back to the cockpit along the coachroof? There must be. I imagine it's an unwillingness to add clutter to the area.

I don't like a lot of stuff run aft, but am happy to make the concession for a few controls that require frequent adjustment.

I'd like a tillerpilot too, but not just so I can make simple adjustments that are frequently required. As Britton says, those long no-wind days of motoring is when I would like to have it.

Frankly, if you don't mind going forward from time to time, such as when you forget to change the adjustment on your outhaul, for example, when you let the boom out for a run, then your plan along the boom might work for you, and be a decent compromise to make the controls a bit more reachable some of the time. But for true ease of adjustment, along the coachroof is the only way.

[Shark]

Poor man's tillerpilot:

I single-hand my boat a fair bit and for trips to the mast or foredeck for sail raising or other adjustments, I use a system devised by another Shark sailor. It is more of a remote "steering line." It consists of a line 1/8" or 1/4" dia., which is passed through small blocks at the deck edge on either side of the tiller. The line runs around the entire deck to the foredeck and back to the tiller via the other side. The exact routing of the line will depend on your deck layout and personal preferences. When going forward, I simply attach the line to the tiller, via snap shackle or just loops tied in the ends. If the boat's heading needs altering, I reach for the line which is somewhere near me on the deck and give it the appropriate tug to steer the boat where I want to. I also use it like a second pair of hands to hold the tiller when tacking and gybing while I work the sheets. The key thing with this system is creating just the right amount of friction or resistance in the line, too little and the boat won't hold its course, too much and you can't move the tiller using the line. I have tried various combinations and contiue to experiment. Currently, I use 1/4" line passed through a small block attached to the stemhead and in order to provide enough friction I laced the line through a pair of teak handrails which are on the foredeck.

It isn't true self-steering, but it has made single-handing much more relaxing and practical as my boat won't self-steer for more than a moment without it.

Lyman

[catamount]

I know the original question about single-line reefing systems was asked a while ago and this thread has drifted some, but I was just updating my own web-site which includes a page describing the single-line reefing system I have on Greyhawk. In general I like it and it works very well, although there are still a few bugs to be worked out. See http://sailing.thorpeallen.net/Greyhawk/Reefing/

Regards,

[Ric in Richmond]

Nothing comes back to the cockpit on Andiamo. Every thing is at the front end of the boom and on the mast, except the topping lift and I need to change that.

On the drifting subject of tiller pilots....


I have a tiller pilot on Andiamo and LOVE it.

Hooks up to my Garmin GPS. Steers a course and keeps it on course, even with tide.

Putting sails up down away etc is great.

Autotack is very cool when single handing.

Can interface it to the raymarine wind indicator (when I get one) and it will steer to apparent wind.

One of these days I will get the remote I want and I can be any where on the boat and steer.....including sitting on the bow with the kids.

Of course I am always totally afraid I will fall over baord and watch her sail a perfect line across the bay.......

My 6 year old is now a decent "tiller Pilot". One of the few "naturals" that always goes the correct way with the tiller first time everytime without even thinking about it.