mizzen location

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm

I have been contemplating adding a mizzen to my triton for a while. I love the yawl and think it is the future of daysailing. I am waiting for an unstayed carbon fiber mizzen added to an alerion 38. Anyway......My dilema is this. On the stock triton yawl the mainsheet is, as far as I can tell, without a traveler. The original mainsheet had two blocks on the port and starboard poop decks that would allow the mainsheet to not foul with the mizzen mast. The mizzen mast was stepped just behind the rudder shaft outlet onto the floor of the cockpit. There was also a kind of a support and partners piece of wood that helped the mast have a shorter unsupported length. This link is to the Tikva site showing the stock step and partner thingie:

http://www.tritonclass.org/pix/yawl.html

I can definately see the reasons for putting the mizzen as far forward as possible. This would lessen the tendency for the mizzen to add weather helm and it would let you stay the mizzen further aft. I really like my mainsheet traveler. I want the mizzen. I cannot have the mizzen in its stock location without either eliminating or moving the traveler. I had thought of moving the mainsheet traveler track forward but I only get 2" before I start to interfere with my cockpit lockers opening. If I put the mizzen just aft of the existing traveler track I worry that I have moved to far from the basic design. The benefit of moving the mainsheet traveler track for just two inches seems to be a bit risky to me. That mainsheet takes a lot of upward pull. When I am beating into a 25knt westerly on the bay, I do not want to watch that track lift. This is a picture of a tartan 27 with a mizzen.

That thing is way aft. If you look close they have lead the mainmast back stay just to the side of the mizzen. I intend to split the back stay about 10 feet of the deck and then put the mizzen through the split. The chain plates for the backstay will also be used for the mizzen's aft shrouds. I intend to use a beefy aluminum mast section and step the mizzen through the aft deck and down to the hull. It is my hope that this will eliminate the need for spreaders on the mizzen and it will eliminate the single strut jumper that is on the original design. I will stay it with aft shrouds to the mast head and forward shrouds to about 2 feet down from the mast head. With the backstay split I can lower the height of the mizzen boom and therefore the head of the sail and keep the same sail area. I feel that the area of the mizzen can be quite small because it is way back at the end of the boat.

I suppose my question to all are: does it seem worth while to move the mainsheet traveler or should I just step the mizzen where I can? Should I go find a naval architect to tell me that I am a fool and that yawls are pointless artifacts of a rule beating age. Thoughts and links are much appreciated.

R

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:57 pm

i do not know why the tikvha link did not work. sorry.

http://home.comcast.net/~markwhipple/Bo ... 00%20B.htm

this may

R.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:29 pm

I must be missing something. I've read the post carefully and I can't figure why the mainsheet traveler and car would interfere with the mizzen mast. Particularly if you are going to step the mizzen on the keel (I hope I'm using the right terminology here. Keel refers both to the foil and to the longitudinal beam running stem to stern, right?).

Does it interfere because you're using a larger spar? Is there a reason you couldn't move the mizzen aft rather than move the traveler forward?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:54 pm

Part of the mizzen's purpose is to adjust weather helm. In theory, once you have the mizzen, you no longer need the traveler for adjusting weather helm. If you have a good vang and a mizzen, you shouldn't need the traveler.

Just a thought.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:10 pm

This is from when I was prepping for paint. every thing is solid fiberglass, please have pity on me for my sloppy technique.

This is as it is now with the harken traveler in place. The the cam cleats on either side must clear the cockpit locker lids.

upper view of the whole area. I love this view of the boat. Tis is previous chronologically to the above. Before the paint.

Basic problem. this is the stock position of the mizzen mast. notice the lack of fair lead on the mainsheet. Ha Ha.

This would be about where I would place it if I was not to move the main sheet. I could also have some one make me a piece of angled steel that would follow the original curve of the fiberglass base except extend the track forward 2". Harken also makes a high beam track that will span 3' 6" It must be mounted on the ends.

I suppose you could blame this salty dog for my visions.

Joshua Slocum

I have also have a spot in my heart for these images

Odine in the 1963 transatlantic

Finisterre

CaVa

I hope that is not too many pictures. I wasn't sure how to make them smaller. I tried resizing them at the web photo hosting place but it didn't seem to change the size.

THanks for any interest

R

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:20 pm

Jason:
I hope the photos may help explain things better. Because I really didn't understand your question

Figment:
I intend to sail up wind with the mizzen furled in almost all wind speeds unless I am sailing with the mainsail furled. I found that the sloop rig is by far the best way to beat up wind. It is when I am tacking to windward that use the traveler. It makes a big difference in healing if I release the traveler down when sailing in winds over 15 knts. On a ketch this may be different. but I have always considered the mizzen on a yawl to be just windage when beating. I feel that I must maintain the windward ability of the sloop at its highest level of effeciency. Thank you for the comments

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:23 pm

I cannot spell

heeling not healing.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:26 pm

#218 wrote:I must be missing something. I've read the post carefully and I can't figure why the mainsheet traveler and car would interfere with the mizzen mast. Particularly if you are going to step the mizzen on the keel (I hope I'm using the right terminology here. Keel refers both to the foil and to the longitudinal beam running stem to stern, right?).

Does it interfere because you're using a larger spar? Is there a reason you couldn't move the mizzen aft rather than move the traveler forward?

In the original Triton yawl setup, the mizzen is stepped just inside the cockpit well, with the mast base on the cockpit sole itself. So to attempt to step the mast in the original location would interfere with an existing sloop's traveler arrangement, as the traveler, as installed on the sloops, would be behind the mizzen position.

This photo shows an original yawl, but if you imagine the traveler in the traditional spot as on our sloops, I think you'll see the problem.

Moving the spar just aft of the traveler might work, but this entails moving the location probably about 12" aft from where it was designed. I don't see this as a huge problem, since the mizzen on a Triton is so small as to be useless anyway, and moving this tiny sail a little aft really probably won't make that much difference as to the balance help you might have gotten with the spar in the as-designed position.

I love yawls too. They just look so "right", regardless of whether it's worth carrying around the extra spar or not. They somehow carry out the lines of a traditional hull in a very pleasing way.

But I probably wouldn't give up a good mainsail control system in favor of an add-on mizzenmast. If you can figure out a good way to get it all, then go for it. FWIW, I think that a proper traveler bridge, one that is designed to properly withstand the stresses involved, would work just fine if you wanted to tuck your mainsheet into the cockpit well, and mount the mizzen just aft on the poop deck.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:28 pm

Robert's post with all the photos came in while I was writing up my last post, so let me add a couple things.

I think the proposed location just aft of the existing traveler would work out fine. I don't see any reason why you should not go ahead with that plan.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:42 pm

Thanks for the afirmative advice Tim. I just couldn't see moving that mainsheet. I intend to look at your mast step construction in the Daysailor site.
R

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:54 pm

Gotcha. I've never seen a Triton yawl and would not have thought there would be room for a spar in the cockpit well.

My assumptive impression was that the mizzen was precisely where Robert is intending to place it. That's why I was having a hard time envisioning how it would interfere with the traveler.

Robert, I'm happy to see you're looking to correct what is quite obviously an egregious design flaw. :)

tikvah59 · Post by **tikvah59** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:31 am

Of all the pictures to show of my boat, it has to be a 5-year-old still frame from a video camera! Yuck! ;-)

Here's one that's a little more current, showing the 'complete' rig - at least last summer's iteration:

http://home.comcast.net/~markwhipple/Ti ... 202005.htm

Most yawls have a boomkin on the stern - some PO removed mine. I'm not thrilled with the way my mizzen sheet is currently rigged, so that's a project for the Spring.

Robert, if you wanted to keep the traveler but install the mizzen in the 'standard' location, you could try moving the traveler to the deckhouse, and go with mid-boom sheeting. Of course then you might want a new, stronger boom as well! I've also wondered if you address the problem of the mizzen mast by using two cars on the traveler, much like the two block my mainsheet currently has.

You'll also want to give a little thought to where the stays for the mizzen will go. Even though the sail is small, I've read that the rig should be fairly strong as you may use just the jib and mizzen when it's really blowing. Moving the mizzen mast aft (from the cockpit) is probably going to be necessary on your boat, as you'll need the mizzen boom to clear your main mast backstay. As you can see in the picture at the link above, my backstay is forward of the usual location, so the mizzen boom usually clears it.

Figment, I'm not familiar with any other yawls, but according to the sail plan for the Triton yawl, the center of effort is actually a bit aft of the CE of the sloop - theoretically causing more weather helm. I haven't had much time to play with it yet, but Tikvah seems to balance best in moderate winds with full (130%) genny, main with one reef, and mizzen. Then again, my boat is odd as it's a masthead yawl, not a fractional rig.

Robert, if I can provide any more pix or details let me know. I'm trying to find an inexpensive way to fool around with a mizzen staysail this summer. I think that's one of the most intriguing possibilities a mizzen mast provides to a Triton owner.

Mark

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:51 pm

I am moving this thread over to the boat projects area.

Mark thanks for you offer.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:43 pm

Mark what I did on my other yawl was use a blue tarp as a rough mizzen staysail. the tack will go somwhere near your aft lowers on the windward side, the head to the top of the mizzen, and the clew to the end of the mizzen boom. just hoist the tarp up the halyard by one corner. take one edge, the future luff, and go forward to where you want to tack it. this should give you a straignt line from mizzen top, leeward of the back stay, to windward of the main boom, the sail can rest for a bit on the backstay, it will pull away when full. The first cut is from the tack to the mizzen boom. The stock sail plan shoes a pennant on the mizzen staysail this is probably necessary to clear the cabin top. The sail goes from the windward rail up to the centerline mizzen mast head and down to the leeward mizzen boom end back to the tack. after cutting the tarp for the foot, mark where the mizzen boom end lands and that will be your new leech. take the sail down and cut up to the new head. This leech should be hollowed a bit. if it is a straight line it will flutter, I would cut a curve of about 2" depth maximum along the leech. Attaching the sheet and the tack pennant to a blue tarp can involve a bit of creativity but this sail is for research purposes only the loads are not intended to be that high. Leading the sheets to the end of the mizzen boom and then into the cockpit gives a fair lead to the sail but will involve adding a block to the end of the boom. I ended up having port and starboard sheets lead to the boom permantely.

I hope these drawings look ok and explain things a bit

tikvah59 · Post by **tikvah59** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:40 pm

Robert,

Thanks for that explanation! I had most of those facts floating around in my head, but you put everything in a much clearer order. Once you had the outside dimensions of the staysail, how did you decide where to put the draft, and how much of a draft to cut into the sail? What kind of pattern did you use (miter cut, radial, etc.)?

Thanks again,
Mark

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:09 pm

mark,

I used an old balloon jib and set it flipped. It had a wire luff but no hanks. changed the head to the tack then I cut the back end down reused the clew patch in the new location. I resewed the old tack patch in the new head location. It had a miter cut I believe, there was no center seam. After hollowing out the leech, Some one else told me to do this, I had no idea and it fluttered for about 6 month, drove me crazy, The sail would set very well from a deep broad reach, to a fairly high close reach. the main would begin to back wind the mizzen staysail when I would try to point to high. you trim the sails from bow to stern. Trim the headsail first to your desired heading, trim the main sail to create the slot with the headsail, trim the mizzenstaysail to set the slot with the main, trim the mizzen to set the slot with the mizzenstaysail. The loads on the mizzenstaysail sheets can get high, it can be a big sail, I would also see my mizzen boom bend with the load of turning the sheet.

r

tikvah59 · Post by **tikvah59** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:04 pm

I was reorganizing my folder of Triton images, and I ran across this PDF comparing the Triton sloop and yawl. It's from a book by Richard Henderson.

http://home.comcast.net/~markwhipple/Bo ... s_yawl.pdf

Mark