Chain lockers

[Duncan]

I am planning to add chain lockers, fore and aft. I'd thought of piping the chain down and inboard (to keep the weight out of the ends, and contribute to stability). I'm not sure how much difference this could make, but it seems like getting the chain below the waterline and and back inside the boat a couple of feet couldn't hurt.

This suggests building chain lockers under the vberth and under the cockpit. I was wondering if anyone had any experience in doing this or reference sources that might be useful.
Issues which have occurred to me so far are:
* what sort of pipe to use to feed the chain to the locker
* how much vertical angle is needed so it feeds easily
* ventilation and drainage strike me as pretty important to think through
* construction material (I'm thinking epoxied marine ply)

Any thoughts on the wisdom/foolishness of this plan?

[Ceasar Choppy]

Can't remember exactly where I saw this, but Nigel Caulder did this on his last boat using PVC pipe for anchor chain conduit. It may be in his "Boatowners Mechanical & Maintenance Manual".

I would think you would need to make the conduit large enough and at such an angle that would facilitate free movement of the chain so that it would fall where it must and not bind or get caught raising and lowering the anchor.

[Tim]

PVC pipe would work, or electrical conduit (gray PVC). The electrical conduit could be preferable if you need any sort of elbow to change the direction of the chain; the sweeps used with this conduit are gradual enough to prevent binding, whereas normal PVC elbows may be too severe. If you don't need to change direction, I'd probably choose the heavier PVC pipe.

You want a generous size, so that twisted links or small bunches won't get caught up. I wouldn't try anything under 3", and 4" would be better.

The vertical angle is something you'd probably have to experiment with. More is better, of course. Good drainage in the locker is essential.

A couple layers of fiberglass over the marine ply will help protect it from the crashing chain. Plain epoxy-coated wood would probably allow the coating to be quickly compromised, which may not be the end of the world, but you probably want to avoid it if possible.

How much chain do you store?

[CharlieJ]

The only thing I would add to Tim's is I think that would be an excellent spot for a couple of layers of roving, not glass cloth.

I have something in one of the older books on voyaging that has some detail on doing just this, but durned if I can find it or remember which book

I did see one yacht that led the chain aft to just forward of the mast and down into a chain locker in the bilge there- old wooden boat. Of course, that leaves the chain across the foredeck, which would suck. One thing I do remember is the caution to leave enough room between the top of the pile of chain and the bottom of the pipe so it can't pile up there and block the rest of the chain from going in.

I'm trying to figure a way to do the same thing on Tehani by the way.

[Duncan]

Thanks, guys, those are some very helpful points/pointers.
Charlie, that's good, you go first, and I'll learn! If you find that reference, that would be great.

I had been hoping the answer would be PVC, since it's so available and easy to work with. Larger definitely sounds better, and this will help (a little) with ventilation too. Elbows would make things less intrusive, but some mockups, as suggested, sounds very sensible (to avoid too shallow an angle below the elbow.)

Glassing the box sounds like a VERY good idea, thanks. It would be a shame to have to build a new one a few years later. I think that perforating the top and sides would also probably be a good idea.
The lockers would follow the downward slope of the hull, which would be handy for piling the chain properly and for angling the bottom towards the drains.

My current rodes are 2 boatlengths each of 3/8 and 5/16 (~ 135 lbs), plus nylon, but I think that would have to change. I have a feeling that trying to get nylon up and down the pipe all the time might end up being frustrating. If I end up with, say, 2 X 100' of 5/16ths plus nylon, I believe that would be getting closer to 350 lbs.

Anybody got an old manual windlass laying around just needing to get put to work?

Edit: Googling brought up "the conversion of a forward water tank to a chain locker" Good Old Boat, September 2003, as well as a suggestion that there be a grate at the bottom of the locker

[CharlieJ]

LOL- Don't wait for me- it might be next year before I find time. GOT to finish this 17 footer I'm building, BY the 13th of May. Then we are scheduled to sail to Florida for a 4 - 5 week vacation.

One point I'd like to interject here.

Remember that even 4 inch schedule 40 PVC can be bent into a fairly nice curve using a heat gun and some patience. So if the curves are not TOO abrupt, you might be able to curve the PVC to meet your needs. Just a matter of taking your time and using plenty of heat over a wider area. You can also quite easily bell the lower end so the chain can lead into it without having an abrupt edge to get around.

[Tim]

Remember that even 4 inch schedule 40 PVC can be bent into a fairly nice curve using a heat gun and some patience. So if the curves are not TOO abrupt, you might be able to curve the PVC to meet your needs. Just a matter of taking your time and using plenty of heat over a wider area. You can also quite easily bell the lower end so the chain can lead into it without having an abrupt edge to get around.

That's a great suggestion. I've never tried heating PVC, so wouldn't have thought of that.

[CharlieJ]

Tim- I do it frequently. We make sand spikes for fishing rods from PVC ( surf rods, etc) and I heat the tops, then force a glass bottle down into the end- flares the opening so a rod can be shoved in more easily. You can even do it over an open flame ( IF you are very careful) but a heat gun does it in a much more controlled manner. Just be patient and let it get hot enough to easily bend before you try bending- otherwise it could flatten or crinkle. Keep the heat moving and heat a wider area than you want bent. Be sure to hold it in place til it cools- if it's still hot when you let it go it'll spring back.

I"ve done the same thing in the shop with plexiglass panels . Had to replace the curved glass in a china cabinet with plexi once because the customer's husband had MS and was unstable- they worried he would fall into the glass and cut himself.

Bingham in his "Sailor's Sketchbook" details using plexi to make shelving, etc, by heating and bending.

[Summersdawn]

My boat (San Juan 24) has a chain locker about 15" below the deckhead. I use a PVC pipe to feed my rode into the locker. I use a 4" pipe (there are no bends in it - just a straight pipe leading down into the chain locker). I am happy with the 4" pipe, but wouldn't want anything smaller.

It works well, I haven't had any problems with lines getting tangled.

Depending on the type of hawse pipe (ie an oval one) you use to go through your deck, you may have to make a transition, or it may get caught on the top of the pipe. This will become evident once you hold a length of pipe up to the hole. Heating and flaring the pipe would probably work really well. You want smooth transitions.

[CharlieJ]

JUST to be a tad picky here- that ain't a hawse pipe going through the deck. It's a chain pipe, navel pipe (british) or deck pipe.

A hawse pipe or hawse hole goes through a bulkhead to lead the hawse out (hawse=rode) or through a hull for the same thing- as seen on ships with anchors on the sides of the bow, shanks stowed up the hawse pipe.

Few of our boats have hawse pipes. I visited a PSC 25 on Tuesday that does though.

Ok- Pickiness over- no- I'd not use anything smaller than 4 inch myself.

[Summersdawn]

Heh-heh! I was going to call it a navel pipe (I'm not British, I'm Canadian), but usually when I call it that, I get a stunned look, followed by a "...ooh, you mean a hawse pipe!"

On this forum, I should know better!

[CharlieJ]

*grin*

[Figment]

I've only ever seen these done with an all-chain rode, with which the weight of the chain falling into the locker is sufficient to draw the length through the horizontal run of the pipe. For the nylon portion of the rode, you'd need someone in the chain locker overhauling the slack until the chain appeared and commenced to self-feed.

I have a personal aversion to this, as this was the case on my family's boat when I was a kid. The rode would be piled on deck as the anchor was retrieved, and then someone would be granted the delightful task of reaching into the forepeak to overhaul the line through the pipe. Invariably, that someone wound up with jellyfish-stung forearms coated in baking soda.

[Tim]

I didn't connect that you were talking about a chain/nylon combination rode. I think that attempts to use a chain pipe like this for a nylon rode could be an exercise in frustration. Unless you switch to all chain (a very heavy proposition that could pose problems for small boats), I'm not sure the effort would be worth it to bring the shorter length of chain a few feet aft--and it could actually end up being a royal pain.

Unless Figment is volunteering to come aboard and pull the rode through from the inside, that is! But I'm guessing probably not...

[Summersdawn]

The chain/nylon works fine for me, but again, that is just a short vertical pipe. It should be pretty easy to mock up some pipes at home, and try to feed some chain/nylon through it.

[Duncan]

I have a feeling that trying to get nylon up and down the pipe all the time might end up being frustrating.

I've only ever seen these done with an all-chain rode, with which the weight of the chain falling into the locker is sufficient to draw the length through the horizontal run of the pipe. For the nylon portion of the rode, you'd need someone in the chain locker overhauling the slack until the chain appeared and commenced to self-feed.

I have a personal aversion to this, as this was the case on my family's boat when I was a kid. The rode would be piled on deck as the anchor was retrieved, and then someone would be granted the delightful task of reaching into the forepeak to overhaul the line through the pipe. Invariably, that someone wound up with jellyfish-stung forearms coated in baking soda.

That's what I was guessing, so this would involve more weight (albeit in a better place). I guess if if was low enough and far enough back, I could call it ballast.

All things considered, going all chain does sound better, though.

[CharlieJ]

yep- I feed a nylon rode through a regular deck pipe with no problems but a long length of pipe would not be fun.

But since we use a mostly all chain rode already (75 feet) I wouldn't have the problem.

Big problem is I'd like to add another 25- 50 feet to my chain, but it's 1/4 high test and I cannot find a joining shackle that's rated for high test chain. Seems silly to use 2600 pound SWL chain and join two sections with a 1300 SWL joining shackle.

[Figment]

All things considered, going all chain does sound better

Even considering cost? I can think of a dozen better places to spend boat-bucks.

an all-chain rode on a boat of less than 8 tons never seems to make sense to me. I know the Pardeys did it and all, but they did lots of things that don't seem to make sense. Yeah, if you put it in the right place it could be termed "ballast", but do you NEED that ballast?


Charlie, I know it's a lot of weight to lug off the boat and back on again, but joining two lengths of chain should cost less than a 12-pack of beer at your local welding shop.

[Duncan]

I didn't connect that you were talking about a chain/nylon combination rode. I think that attempts to use a chain pipe like this for a nylon rode could be an exercise in frustration. Unless you switch to all chain (a very heavy proposition that could pose problems for small boats), I'm not sure the effort would be worth it to bring the shorter length of chain a few feet aft--and it could actually end up being a royal pain.

Well, you're probably right, Tim. I do like my combination of 2 boatlengths of chain, plus a nylon rode. I'd prefer not to give that up, or get into a hassle for nothing. I do need to do something, though, since there is only a "blind" locker in the forepeak (i.e no pipe or hatch). That is such a pain (and I have such a crude temporary solution) I don't even want to talk about it!

The simple solution, of course, is to just to open a hole to the existing locker. As you say, 100 some-odd pounds in the bow is not going to make a huge difference, and that's probably all I will do this season anyway. Another thing I can easily do is just trade the 50' of 3/8 chain to someone with a bigger boat - even 5/16 is "oversize" for my 4500 lbs.

To make a nice job of it eventually, though, every little bit counts, and getting some weight lower and further aft certainly wouldn't hurt. The bow locker in the vberth could also be handy for storing lighter things, whereas the bottom of the space in the v-berth is sort of awkward anyway.

Acco says 5/16 Grade 40 galvanized HT weighs 116 lbs/100 feet, so we aren't talking all that much weight no matter what happens.

[CharlieJ]

Go to 1/4 high test. Lighter and stronger, so you either carry more chain for the same weight or have less weight for the same length. Tehani is 5300 empty ( we figure 7500 - 8000 loaded) and that's quite well within reasonable usage for 1/4 HT. SWL is 2600 and the loads put on the anchor is way less than that. Or you are in trouble no matter what.

The High Test is about 25% - 30 % lighter than the 5/16 BBB at the same SWL.

On my 35 foot tri I used 5/16 High Test., and we stayed anchored through a couple of 80 mph blows.

[bcooke]

an all-chain rode on a boat of less than 8 tons never seems to make sense to me.

Maybe not an all chain rode but last summer I experimented and started adding extra sections of chain onto my rode. I was pretty happy with the 60' of 5/16 chain I was using by the end of the summer. I found the swinging room dropped dramatically allowing me to squeaze into some full anchorages and there was a real sense of security when the wind would pick up and I would go forward to check my rode only to learn that the chain was still riding on the bottom and the anchor was barely employed. Beyond 60' I think I would only use chain if chafe was an issue. I like the nylon for the cushioning effect and the reduced back strain.

Go to 1/4 high test. Lighter and stronger

True, but then you lose one of the major benefits of the chain - the weight. You still have the chafe protection but the the weight on the bottom and the cantilever action of the chain adds a lot of holding power IMHO.

-Britton

[Figment]

Catenary.

[bcooke]

Catenary.

Yeah, what he said...

[dasein668]

Catenary.

Yeah, what he said...

Ah, Britton, we've missed ya!

[CharlieJ]

Of course, there is always the old ways too- use a kellet slid down the chain.

Last May we were anchored inside Ship Island on Mississippi Sound when the wind went west and increased unpleasantly. During the night we took two breaking waves over the bow. We were in 8 feet of water and I was worried that we were gonna slam the bottom as the waves increased. Riding to 60 feet of chain and still never snatched the chain tight except for once or twice. The chain catenary was still able to handle it most times. A kellet would have done the trick nicely too.

One thing that has NOT been mentioned here and this seems a good place. If you are anchoring with chain, you definitely NEED a snubber. I use a chain hook with 30 feet of 1/2 nylon . I hook that to the chain, veer more chain until the boat is riding to the nylon and cleat that- takes the strain off the chain attachment ( cleat, whatever) plus gives some shock absorbsion. The boat doesn't slam against the chain. If you need to veer more rode, just pull back in, unhook and let whatever more you need out, then reset the snubber. It can also be a longer line so you can just let more of both out, but I prefer having it a fixed length and adjusting as needed.

[Tim]

I've been generally pleased with the 30' of 5/16" that I use. A longer length might be a little better, but if I anchor in 30' or more of water, that 30' of chain, plus the 35# CQR, when it's all hanging in the water, is about all I can handle to haul up by hand. I don't know what is better for ultimate holding: a lighter anchor with more chain, or the heavier anchor with somewhat less chain. In any event, 30' of chain in my situation is adequate to ensure a more optimum angle of pull on the anchor when deployed.

As to swing room: I've found that with an excellent, heavy anchor on the bottom, and 30' of chain, that in most conditions I only need about 3:1 or 4:1 at high tide (which might normally translate to 10:1 at low tide around here with 10' tidal range and using 15' MHW depth (5-6' MLW) as a guide). Of course in stronger winds I want (and use) much more, but for typical summer cruising weather in my area the shorter scope is just fine, and this really helps limit swing room to about the same as the all-chain guys. I always set the anchor FIRMLY with the engine. I wouldn't try such short scope with something like a Danforth no matter what. It seems to work with the CQR.

The REAL reason that I think so many people go with all chain rodes is because most anchor windlasses are optimized for use with all chain, rather than a combination of nylon and chain. Since most longer-ranging cruisers tend to want windlasses (for convenience and, in many cases, because they simply cannot handle the ground tackle required for their large boats), you therefore see a lot of chain. This is as good a reason as any, and all chain rodes do have their other benefits.

I will probably go all chain for the main anchor when I outfit Pixie (sometime far in the future), as I expect to succomb to the windlass craze at that point.

[Duncan]

Excellent 'food for thought' here all around, thanks everyone! I do like to anchor out (and I don't like sleeping nervously), so getting this done right is important to how I use the boat.
As I think about it, and see the comments/advice, I am coming to several 'tentative conclusions'.
* the 50' of 3/8 chain I picked up for a great price last summer is great for security, but the extra weight isn't worth it (weighs close to 80 lbs.) I'll trade it to someone with a bigger boat, or stow it low in the boat for emergencies. 5/16 is a tradeoff I like - oversize, but without being too heavy to haul or stow.
* one way or another there will be nylon rode involved, either as a snubber or a tail. The sensible place for this is in the bow locker, and I can feed it through a navel pipe or whatever. Maybe a shelf in there...
* I think it's still worth thinking through the dedicated locker low and aft, but it does seem to involve a commitment to all-chain which isn't necessarily practical or desirable right now. I'll try not to do anything that would rule it out in the future.

[bcooke]

I've been generally pleased with the 30' of 5/16" that I use

Me too. That was the setup on my boat at the beginning of last season. I just had the extra chain on board and felt like experimenting. I liked the extra chain but I would certainly not call it an absolute improvement. I also think an all chain rode might be useful in certain conditions but not the usual ones I encounter. So in that case the boatlength of chain with nylon attached is still my preferred choice. I also should add that I had very little weight up forward (no water tanks or stored gear) so the extra weight of the chain in the locker wasn't an issue. Truth be known I made note that most of the 'real' cruisers seem to have all chain rodes so I felt like part of that 'elite' group with a chain rode climbing onto my anchor roller. It is always about the look after all. I also had a 35# bruce on board but never used it. The 22 pounder was working more than fine. The lighter anchor may have been the reason I didn't mind hauling up the 60' of chain by hand.

<edited in>
And concerning the swinging room; I would let out a 3 or 4: 1 scope but unless there was a strong wind or current, much of the chain would sit on the bottom so that I was swinging on something closer to a 2:1 scope. Sometimes when the tide shifted the boat would just pivot on her nose which was nice when some bozo anchored too close.
<end edit>

With all that is talked about concerning ground tackle, my personal feeling is that the whole issue is a little overblown. A person could go crazy striving for the ultimate gear when in reality there are many combinations that work most of the time and no one combination is ideal for every condition a boat will meet out there. You just gotta pick a good compromise and be ready to modify the system (or your plans/itinerary) to the situation.

Getting back to the chain pipe idea, leading the rode to a point closer to the center of the boat is a great idea. But at least for my boat it simply doesn't work out well. The smallness of the boat and the cut away forefoot doesn't lend itself to a workable design unless I directed the pipe down through the V-berth. That ain't gonna happen on my boat. Maybe someday when I buy a real cruising boat (yeah right) For now, I will live with the weight further forward or limit the amount of chain on my rode.

If you find a system that works I hope you can post some photos.

-Britton

[CharlieJ]

Good points Britton.

A couple of reasons I went to a mostly chain rode. First, around here there are LOTS of oyster shell reefs, and many many loose clumps of one or two shells. Those can cut a rode in just minutes. So I like a bunch of chain.

Secondly, we have definite intentions of sailing to more tropical waters with in the next 12 to 18 months. We could easily find outselves in coral. Or broken chunks of coral, since we shouldn't anchor IN coral.

Also, in many cruising anchorages, space is at a premium and if every one else is riding to chain you can get really unpopular riding to much more scope, using nylon.

For those reasons I chose the chain up front and did so when I did because I got a sale on it JUST when I was ordering- Saved a buck a foot. Sometimes things DO break your way *grin*

Second point- When we are around here we carry two anchors -a 22 pound Claw on the bow roller (with the 75 feet of chain and 200 feet of nylon) and a 12 H Danforth with 25 feet of chain and 200 feet of nylon in a new locker under the cockpit. But when we are traveling, I add a 15 pound folding Northill and another 200 foot nylon rode. Plus another piece of chain. That gives us three disticnt types of anchors so figure I can park the boat most anywhere under most any conditions. I also have aboard a 4 pound Danforth and 50 feet of small line. We use that to stop the boat from swinging, etc

I've been forced to cut and run once- I want to still have an anchor aboard should I need to do that again. We tend to be way off the beaten track when we cruise so I feel the need to be as self sufficient as we can be.

BUt you are right- every one should evaluate thier own situation and carry what is felt necessary for them. Personally I feel that GOOD anchoring gear is the best insurance policy you can get for a cruising boat.

[dasein668]

With all that is talked about concerning ground tackle, my personal feeling is that the whole issue is a little overblown. A person could go crazy striving for the ultimate gear when in reality there are many combinations that work most of the time and no one combination is ideal for every condition a boat will meet out there. You just gotta pick a good compromise and be ready to modify the system (or your plans/itinerary) to the situation.

BUt you are right- every one should evaluate thier own situation and carry what is felt necessary for them. Personally I feel that GOOD anchoring gear is the best insurance policy you can get for a cruising boat.

I fully agree with both of these sentiments!

[Harry James]

Triton #144 is much modified and basically the forepeak is occupied with sail stowage and this 4" plastic pipe leading from the deck pipe to a huge chain locker, I willl take a picture and post. Has a nice manual windlass. From the log the boat use to cruise the West Coast from Eureka down to Cabo, might be the reason for the focus on anchoring.

Pic is on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/72854958@N00/140002716/