Spreaders and batteries

[george]

Two questions before Phase 2 begins.

#1) I asked the Alberg 30 folks about making spreaders and they said to use either aircraft spruce or white oak, cap with aluminum and epoxy, etc.

But no one provided the proper dimensions. I am a bit concerned at winging the fabrication of something so critical to keeping the mast up, and was wondering if anyone her had made their own.

And what are the general dimensions? I am kinda clueless about what size wood to ask the woodworking shop for. The shop next to my house stocks everything ... mahogany, teak, white oak ... but not aircraft grade spruce, so I am going with white oak.

#2) What battery would you start a complete re-wiring job with? I am tempted to get a cheapy marine wet cell and then later just use it for the engine starter and add deep-cycle for a house battery. What size battery? Group 24? Or 27? Is two batteries overkill? Should I just go with one mambo glass mat battery? I expect to have almost zero electrical needs at the outset (vhf, gps, nav lights and cabin lights)

Thanks for any input.

[David VanDenburgh]

George,

I have my aluminum spreaders off the mast and accessible. Can I assist you in any way with measurements and photos? If so, I'm happy to help.

David

[george]

Thanks for replying.

Are they Alberg 30 spreaders? I don't have a triton and am using wood, not aluminum, so the measurements would be different.

I figure I will just overbuild them. I think Ric has an Alberg 35 near my boat, so maybe I can check his out and go from there.

But if anyone has ever cut their own, let me know how you did it please!

[David VanDenburgh]

Yes, they're Alberg 30 spreaders. Sorry I can't help.

David

[Ric in Richmond]

I think you are confused...

George wants alberg 30 spreaders.....

David has alberg 30 spreaders.....

I'd go to kinkos and find the biggest scanner they have and scan them or copy them.

Throw a ruler in there as well so you can make sure it doesn't slightly enlarge compress the image.

Perfect patterns.

George....see you at boat this weekend more than likely....

[Figment]

#2) What battery would you start a complete re-wiring job with? I am tempted to get a cheapy marine wet cell and then later just use it for the engine starter and add deep-cycle for a house battery. What size battery? Group 24? Or 27? Is two batteries overkill? Should I just go with one mambo glass mat battery? I expect to have almost zero electrical needs at the outset (vhf, gps, nav lights and cabin lights)

Because you have such modest "house" electrical needs at present, starting duty should drive your decision on battery size. an A4 is ok with a group 24, but if it's a diesel I'd go with at least a group 27.

Modest electrical needs also don't really require the second battery. It's nice for the sake of redundancy, but not completely required. My electrical setup is similarly modest, and I did a 5-day cruise on a pair of group 24s with a total of about 40 minutes of engine time.

Build a good deep house battery setup later if your needs require.

[David VanDenburgh]

I think you are confused...

George wants alberg 30 spreaders.....

David has alberg 30 spreaders.....

No, I'm not confused (at least I don't think so! ; ). I can only deduce that wooden A30 spreaders have different dimensions than aluminum A30 spreaders, and that's why my offer isn't of much help to George. If I'm wrong, then of course I'm certainly happy to supply the measurements and photographs. George, you know how to contact me.

Cheers,
David

[Figment]

ah, just go to the hardware store and get yourself a couple of ash shovel-handles!

[CharlieJ]

There's an ALberg 30 on the next dock over from me- If you don't get an answer I can go shoot some pics for you. MAYBE could get some measurements too, but that's a MAYBE

[Tim]

Spruce (I think "aircraft" spruce is probably Sitka Spruce) is generally considered to be one of the best materials for wooden spreaders, and most older ones are made of this--it's lightweight yet strong. Of course whatever wood you choose needs to be very straight-grained and of high quality with no knots or twisted grain. Be sure that the wood is of the highest quality and entirely suitable for this use: spreaders are sort of important. Finding excellent wood blanks for this may be a little tougher than you think.

If you use white oak, you need to specify quartersawn white oak. Only this will provide the straight grain you need. For that matter, any wood for spreaders should be quartersawn, as this aligns the grain in the straightest possible manner along the length of the piece.

If you varnish your new spreaders, be sure to paint the tops white. You don't want varnish on the upper exposed surface; the paint will last longer and do a better job reflecting UV light. Since it's on the top side only, you will never know from the deck that they are not all varnished.

Roughly, you're probably looking at two pieces of wood about 4' long each (the spreaders are probably 3' or so), about 3-4" wide (again, your spreaders will be narrower than this), and perhaps 2" thick; probably the spreaders might only be perhaps 1-1/2" at the butt (mast) end, and thinner towards the tip. Blanks of this size would be adequate to allow you to then cut and shape your new spreaders. Of course you need to know the size of the wooden spreaders so you can make yours correctly, and I'm afraid I can't help directly with that.

If it were me, I'd call up Metalmast Marine and order some new airfoil aluminum spreaders. But that's just me. There are a couple people on this board who have A30s with aluminum spreaders, so you could easily obtain the measurements if the sparmaker needed them.

[Robert The Gray]

Several people have told me that oak is so prone to rot they do not want it near anything structura that might come into contact with water. I do not know if you are fabricating your own spreader sockets, but at that connection I would guard against any water penetration into the end grain of the wood. If you use some kind of pin to attach the spreader into the socket, there is not much wood holding the spreader to the mast. 1.5 years could go by, your mother-in-law is in the boat thinking about what to do with her late husband's Concordia Yawl. You are having a nice beat to windward on the starboard tack. Take a good bounce going through some ferry boat's wake. You lean down to the leeward side to check the jib trim and there is your port spreader hanging from the port shroud spinning around like some hurricain debris That small piece of wood holding the pin turned to mush. spreader of oak weighs 3.5 lbs. add some random bumb or violent motion, and bye bye. Kinda stressful.

On an alberg varnished spreaders would be nice but not vital to be in keeping with the over all aesthetic of the boat. I'm with Tim, aluminum. As an aside I have been having a blast fabricating things with aluminum. One can use wood working tools. Not the woodworking tools, but the bargain chisels. It takes longer than with a lathe but there is a lot of machine work that one can do with a drillpress, a metal blade jig saw, a belt sander. If you use good clamping techniques the drillpress can drill at precise angles.
r

[Figment]

RED oak is very prone to rot. WHITE oak is the polar opposite. A bit on the heavy side for spar work, though. There's an old saying that goes something like "The closer a piece of oak is to the shoreline, the more likely it is to be called White, and up up up goes the price". caveat emptor.

the "Aircraft grade" designation can apply to any specie of wood, I think. It's more to do with the physical properties. Google reveals:

Aircraft spruce is kiln dried to spec. AN-W-2. A specific gravity of not less
then .36, slope of grain not greater than 1:15, sawn vertical grain, nor fewer than 6 annular grains per inch,
no pitch pockets, bark pockets,streaks, compression wood, wane and brashness at all.
Certain very tight knots can be allowed under "certain" conditions.

[bcooke]

the "Aircraft grade" designation for spruce has more to do with it being completely free of any knots or grain runout, and I think it even requires a certain number of rings-per-inch

Correct and correct...
Spruce(Picea), Sitka(P. Sitchensis) Red(P. Rubra), and White(P. Glauca) are all considered "Aircraft Grade Spruce" and are considered the standard by which other wood substitutions are made. Maximum grain deviations are 1:15. That is the grain 'lines' can spread one inch apart in fifteen inches of length. There are also a bunch of acceptable and unacceptable defects (knots and such) that go along with the designation but I will spare everyone the experience unless someone is really interested. You can probably order Aircraft grade spruce from local sources but a very complete source would be Aircraft Spruce and Specialty www.aircraftspruce.com which supplies the antique and homebuilt aircraft market. They stock a large selection of dimensions ready to ship.

Red oak has open cell walls so moisture can move relatively freely through the material promoting rot. White oak has a closed cell structure which resists the movement of moisture through the material. White oak will last almost indefinitely as long as moisture doesn't collect on it. I think when the USS Constitution was rebuilt a few years ago many of the white oak frames were as strong as the day they were installed (200+ years). Drainage is the key to preventing rot in a wooden structure. If water can collect and remain in contact with the wood then all bets are off.

As for red oak, I have often wondered if a good epoxy coating will cure its tendency to pass water through the structure but I can't say for sure.

If you varnish your new spreaders, be sure to paint the tops white

Now that is great idea that I wouldn't have come up with on my own... makes me almost want to put varnished spruce spreaders on my boat too :-)

"The closer a piece of oak is to the shoreline, the more likely it is to be called White, and up up up goes the price". caveat emptor.

I have personally seen red oak being passed off as white. Go with a reliable source if you have any doubt.

ah, just go to the hardware store and get yourself a couple of ash shovel-handles

...and keep a close eye on them as ash is one of those rot-prone woods.

-Britton

[Tim]

As for red oak, I have often wondered if a good epoxy coating will cure its tendency to pass water through the structure but I can't say for sure.

There just aren't enough good reasons to bother to try. Red oak is heavy-grained, dense, hard to work with, tough on tools, a bear to sand, turns black as soon as moisture hits it, and, in my opinion, is attractive only on household floors. I think it should stay far, far away from boats.

I have personally seen red oak being passed off as white. Go with a reliable source if you have any doubt.

True enough!

However, there are clear differences in the appearance of red and white oak. All one needs to do is compare a piece of each side by side and this becomes obvious, making future identification relatively straightforward to avoid being sold the wrong thing.

the "Aircraft grade" designation for spruce has more to do with it being completely free of any knots or grain runout, and I think it even requires a certain number of rings-per-inch

Correct and correct...
Spruce(Picea), Sitka(P. Sitchensis) Red(P. Rubra), and White(P. Glauca) are all considered "Aircraft Grade Spruce" and are considered the standard by which other wood substitutions are made. Maximum grain deviations are 1:15. That is the grain 'lines' can spread one inch apart in fifteen inches of length. There are also a bunch of acceptable and unacceptable defects (knots and such) that go along with the designation but I will spare everyone the experience unless someone is really interested. You can probably order Aircraft grade spruce from local sources but a very complete source would be Aircraft Spruce and Specialty www.aircraftspruce.com which supplies the antique and homebuilt aircraft market. They stock a large selection of dimensions ready to ship.

That's kind of what I figured too, though I'd heard enough about Sitka sprice being used for aircraft (and spars, too) that it seemed as if it might be the default choice.

I also figured we'd hear the definitive word from you, Britton, being an aircraft guy and all! Thanks for the info.

[bcooke]

I admit, I had to break out the regulations. I don't work on wooden aircraft much ;-)

-B.

[jhenson]

I think if one were looking to make a small wooden component on a boat to maximum strength, then riving (splitting) the part from raw timber would be a possibility.

Prior to the last century, many high strength items such as tool handles, wagon wheel spokes, barrel staves, chair spindles all where made this way. Spindles on windsor chairs, for example, were riven which is one reason why many survive for nearly 300 years while modern factory versions rarely last 50.

The breaking strength on a piece of riven white oak is far greater than flat sawn lumber and still quite a bit stronger than quarter sawn lumber. Since a log tapers in section and is rarely straight, quarter sawing usually doesn't follow the grain that well in both dimesions. It is still much better than flat sawing.

If I were harvesting an white oak spreader, for example, I would look for the straightest section of the tree and split the billet from a section between the pith and the sapwood. One would need to dry the piece for a while to bring down the moisture content. The best place to do this in your home is over a gas water heater or clothes drier. For a piece that will be exposed to the elements, you don't need to approach the moisture content of interior furniture. Kiln dried lumber is also said to be weaker than air dried because it is more brittle.

An osage orange tiller handle could be made by riving the part out of a curved section that approximates the shape of the tiller. An anchor platform made from riven timber should be less prone to failure. The structural part could be made from white oak and "covered" with mahogany for appearance.

If you need dimensioned stock from riven billets (for say an anchor platform), a sled will work on the band saw or table saw to flatten two sides needed to mill the stock to final dimensions.

White oak and black locust are two widely available North American hardwoods that are very rot resistant. They also are very easy to work green. One problem would be the time it takes to dry the billet, so if you need the piece in a hurry this method wouldn?t be for you.

Joe

[george]

Wow! Quite a treatise on various wood types here! Thanks for all the info.

Metal Mast wanted $400 for spreaders, so I am going to try fabricating my own from quartersawn white oak. Also, they wanted my wooden spreaders dimensions, which I don't have.

If the surveyor says I screwed it up I will order aluminum spreaders. The surveyor that checked my boat out last April will be back this July to inspect the quality of my work, hopefully he will not laugh.

I will post photos of my attempt at making spreaders, it will either be informative or entertaining.

Thanks again folks.

On the battery front, I am going with one group 31 gel battery, which I realize is overkill, but since the boat will be unattended for long periods, I figured gel was the way to go.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I made my spreaders both for my Pearson Renegade and my Pearson 39) from sitka spruce I got from aircraftspruce.com. It cost me $60 a go (for each set of two) and was very easy. I varnished the bottoms and painted the tops. One of the easiest projects I did on either boat.

One thing you might also consider is to overdrill any bolthole, fill with epoxy and redrill to keep the rotting out.

In fact the "new" spreaders on my Pearson 39 were made of some kind of oak when I bought the boat. These "new" spreaders were rotted when I inspected them. The spruce was significantly lighter.

BTW: most surveyors don't go up the mast unless you are hiring a rigger.

[Ceasar Choppy]

George,

I left you a PM. I have some relatively new spruce you might be able to use.

[Ric in Richmond]

George is in VA right now...and has limited internet access.

Wemet up and had dinner last saturday.

I'll probably see him tonight and pass this info on.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Ric,

You can tell him that it is sitka spruce I used for my spreaders when I rebuilt mine last year for my Pearson 39-- except these were a failed attempt at carpentry on my part. They are tapered and the edges routed, except the ends aren't cut correctly, but if he has measurements for what he needs, I think there may be enough good wood for him to use.

Approx. dimensions are 50" x 3" x 1.25". Free to a good home for the cost of shipping.

[Ric in Richmond]

Saw him last night.

Let him know.

He will try to get on line.

If he doesn't I will get them for my A35...they would be nice to have as a spare for when it comes time to replace them.

His Alberg 30 is coming right along. When I got down there I asked if he needed a little inspiration and wanted to go out with us. We brought George, mom, brother, girlfriend, my wife and kids and went for a little evening float.

George did get to sail:






All in all it was a very nice evening sail....

[Tim]

I'm jealous of you guys out there sailing!

[Ric in Richmond]

Come on down!!! We Will go sailing!

Weather is fine. (well not today...kind of stormy!)

[george]

Ric -

Your boat is awesome, thanks for letting me man the helm! I can't believe that is a 1962, it looks like it belongs in a showroom, especially compared to my project boat. The sailing adventure was all my family talked about, and it certainly inspired everyone, especially me. Thanks again.

Caesar, the Alberg 30 spreaders have a base of 3.5 inches, so I think I will have to pass on your spruce, but I do appreciate it. Folks like you and Ric make this forum rock!

I will be posting a few photos in the project section to detail what we got accomplished this trip. We battled rain, but were able to mount almost all the deck hardware (including toe rails). I had overdrilled the holes and filled with epoxy the previous trip, and nothing leaks except one window, which I will have to redo.

All that's left is spreaders and the biggie, a refurbed Atomic 4 install. At that point I should be able to at least get her into the water.

Thanks again for all the help people. I will be posting a few stupid questions in the next few days, please bear with me.

-- George

[Ric in Richmond]

George,

Thanks for the compliment.

The previous owners deserve the credit for keeping her in great shape and never letting her get run down.

Now it is up to me to be the caretaker and keep her going.

Good meeting you and crew. Let me know when you are back in town.

Your boat looked great when I left Saturday.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Ric -

Your boat is awesome, thanks for letting me man the helm! I can't believe that is a 1962, it looks like it belongs in a showroom, especially compared to my project boat. The sailing adventure was all my family talked about, and it certainly inspired everyone, especially me. Thanks again.

Caesar, the Alberg 30 spreaders have a base of 3.5 inches, so I think I will have to pass on your spruce, but I do appreciate it. Folks like you and Ric make this forum rock!

I will be posting a few photos in the project section to detail what we got accomplished this trip. We battled rain, but were able to mount almost all the deck hardware (including toe rails). I had overdrilled the holes and filled with epoxy the previous trip, and nothing leaks except one window, which I will have to redo.

All that's left is spreaders and the biggie, a refurbed Atomic 4 install. At that point I should be able to at least get her into the water.

Thanks again for all the help people. I will be posting a few stupid questions in the next few days, please bear with me.

-- George

George,

Upon further reflection, I think it is 4" width at the base. I'll measure exact and let you know if you are still interested.

C

[george]

I am interested in anything over 3.499 inches! The spreader base is 3.5 inches.

Thanks.

[Ceasar Choppy]

George,

PM me your e-mail address so we can take this off the forum.

[Harry James]

George

Did you ever get the wood for your spreaders? What is the blank size that you need?

HJ