Roll-and-Tip

[Figment]

This whole thing of rolling and tipping LPU paint is starting to tick me off. I don't remember it being this finicky.
I've yet to consistently find that razor's edge between too much paint (runs and sags) and too little paint (poor self-leveling).

Today I was ready to try anything, and started thinking a bit outside of the box. Can't think of a way to get around the whole runs-and-sags thing, so I started thinking about the brushstroke problem. What would happen if I skipped the whole "tipping" thing?
rephrased: what's the worst that could happen if I skipped the whole "tipping" thing?

Answer: Couldn't be much worse than what I've been getting. Nothing to lose by trying.

So, with a foam roller I applied a thin coat, juuuust tickling the surface with the roller for the last touch. The result could be termed "serious orange-peel", and I gotta say that I don't hate it. At least it's uniform.

I think I may try the same approach, but with the mohair roller, just to see what happens for one more coat.

Thoughts, anyone?

(yes, I've begun murmuring "one more coat" in my sleep)

[Duncan]

Out of curiousity, what would happen if you polished it with wet 1000 grit?

[Figment]

Yep, I'm already thinking along those lines. Wetsand with 1000grit, rubbing compound, and polish.

I just need to ensure that I build enough film thickness to stand up to it.

Of course, at some point I'm going to wake up and remember that I'm not really all that fond of superglossy finishes, but until then I just keep rolling along...

[CharlieJ]

When I repainted Tehani I used a glossy 2 part poly, but I deliberately shot the topsides so they WOULDN'T have a lot of gloss. I tried for a sort of egg shell look. Shiny but not glossy. Did the same for the cabin sides, etc. Less glare that way.

Personally, I think older boats just don't look right with super glossy surfaces, and also there are ALWAYS small imperfections that show more under high gloss. If you go to the extent of getting rid of ALL those small waves, dings, etc, I feel you spend WAY too much time rebuilding when you should be getting on with getting it sailing.

Of course, if you WANT a high gloss finish and are willing to delay your sailing and spend the time to get it, more power to ya.

I'll be sailing.

[Tim]

Proper self-leveling of paint (any paint) can be an elusive dream for many. There are no hard and fast rules as to how to guarantee success, as every situation and every given day are different; therefore, the proper recipe for success will vary in each situation and on any given day.

In general, based on my own experiences:

1. There is no substitute for using the proper application device for the job. Extremely high quality paint deserves excellent brushes and rollers. I maintain that a 3/16" mohair roller is necessary, as is an expensive badger brush. I use foam brushes for varnish with good success, but have yet to ever have a successful or enjoyable experience using foam rollers or brushes for any quality paint finish. They just don't work well.

Overbrushing will also tend to lead to brush marks in the final surface. The proper combination of paint quantity and light brushing will leave brush marks initially, which causes many users to continue brushing in a futile effort to rid the surface of marks before proceeding. Resist this temptation. Use the roller to evenly spread the paint, without spreading too much (and this is something that each individual must learn in their own way); then, use the brush only to smooth the stipple. Any further brushing will tend to overload some areas with paint (causing sags), or will indent the flashing-off paint with brush marks that will then be unable to level.

2. Getting the proper amount of reducer in the paint can be tricky: there needs to be enough to allow the paint to spread thinly, but not so much to allow it to run. Too little reducer and the paint will start to flash off before it has a chance to self-level; too much reducer and it will run before it flashes. It's not necessarily easy to strike the perfect balance, but it IS possible.

In my opinion, your troubles stem from a combination of these two factors, in roughly equal amounts. Now, I'm not there and cannot see what's happening, so maybe I'm full of it. But my experience with foam rollers suggests that they simply do not ever hold enough paint to properly spread--thereby contributing to the problem you are having with too-thin applications. And the lack of proper leveling suggests an insufficient quantity of reducer, exacerbated by the poor coverage afforded by the foam roller.

I don't feel that a high quality gloss finish, for those who like them, is mutually exclusive with finishing the project and sailing. Acheiving good results with Awlgrip or Alexseal (or, frankly, any paint--though these two are pickier than most) takes patience, skill, and some experience gained over the learning curve of initial applications. And frustration is inherent with any such project.

These are the best suggestions I can offer without experiencing the results firsthand. What I have suggested has worked well for me, but I readily acknowledge that my way isn't the only recipe for success either.

[grampianman]

G'day all,
I have been using the Petit Brightsides paint and this past weekend got the second coat on the cabin and deck. I started using a brush, but was getting too many brush lines left. I realised the paint was too thick, so headed for the thinner. Much better, but still didn't like the brush result. Finally went to the foam roller and it was much better. I find the foam by it's nature makes bubbles and only if the paint is thin enough does it level itself. This was my biggest problem when I painted the hull. I did not keep a close enough eye on the paint in the tray, and by the end, the paint was way too thick and so left a real grapefruit peel effect. It's been sanded down in preparation of the second application, both of paint and lessons learnt.

Cheers,
Ian

[Figment]

Now, I'm not there and cannot see what's happening, so maybe I'm full of it.

oh man you are SO FULL OF IT!!!

I jest, I jest.
I agree, the foam rollers don't hold enough paint for proper spread. I tried the foam primarily because they limited my potential to over-apply and get runs. I switched back to mohair after two attempts with foam.
This last thing was done with foam simply because I had a foamie lying on the bench and didn't feel like going out to buy another mohair for what was really just a wacky experiment.

I'm flirting with over-reducing the paint, I think. I've been starting the mix with the max-reccommended amount, and adding a splash (half capful +/-) every 8-10 minutes to keep up with evaporation. It DOES feel like more would be better, but I've been hesitant to go beyond the manufacturer's reccommended maximum.

Truth be told, much of my frustration stems from the fact that I have my father in my ear, parroting "if you had just let me spray it in the first place you'd be in the water by now".

[Tim]

I wouldn't feel bound by the percentages indicated by the directions. I have been as much as told by the manufacturer's rep that one can reduce further, as needed. This applied to a specific spraying problem, but it would still apply to brush and roller.

Yes, having your father standing by as a naysayer can't help things! hehe

[Figment]

Like I said... serious orange-peel.


But I don't hate it (as much as I hate the runs and brushstrokes).

[Tim]

FWIW, I had orange peel problems when spraying as well, though perhaps not quite to the extent seen in your photos. It was this that caused me to seek advice from the company, when I was told that it would be OK to increase the amount of reducer pretty much as much as needed (within reason, of course).

Alexseal is very high solids, which also affects its application in that it requires less product for good coverage. It is easy to apply too much (which of course leads to runs and sags). The proper thinness of coverage, coupled with a pretty substantial amount of reducer, will allow the product to level as desired.

The thing is: that texture will be invisible if you put the boat in the water as is. Only from very close will anyone ever notice (and most wouldn't notice then, either). These things always look 10X worse when the boat is out of the water, with all those "glaring" faults at eye level. Still, one wants the best job they can.

But I really like that color!

[Figment]

hmmmmm. interesting.

"very high solids" is right! Awlgrip is like watercolor compared to this stuff.

Ok, I'm going to pump the reducer up by 15-20%, and give the roller-only approach another shot, but with a mohair roller this time. If I can reduce the orange-peel dimpling by half, I'll call it good.

[Summersdawn]

Why don't you give the roll and tip one more try? Maybe on your transom. That way if you are still experiencing difficulties, you don't have much to redo, and if it works out, you can do the whole hull. Trying to tip paint that is too thick only seems to make a mess (in my limited tip and roll experience.)

[Tim]

I agree with Rick. I don't think the brush was the problem all along--just an unfortunate combination of unsatisfactory reduction and coating thickness.

Also, take a few minutes beforehand and practice on some scrap or somewhere, not only to fine-tune your reducer, but also to see how the stuff seems to be going on. Perhaps this will help in determining the right amount to roll on.

I have seen one boat that had good results with roller only--Hatteras off white. To me, it was pure dumb luck, but I can't argue with the fact that it looks good.

And good luck! Hope this one works out for you. You've earned it.

[Summersdawn]

I seem to recall hearing a piece of glass is the ideal place to practice rolling and tipping. A solvent wipe is all that is needed before practising, because the surface is already fair, and because it is only a practise, you don't have to worry about "keying" the surface. There is probably a scrap of glass lying around somewhere.

[Figment]

Right. I've been using plexiglass (former deadlight windows left over from last winter's work) for my test panels. Scuffed with 320grit, it's a good approximation of the painted surface.

I started the day with 120% reducer. Better, but still not good. Increased to 140%, it was much much better, and started to approximate the truly watery consistency of LPUs I've used in the past, but still wasn't quite getting there. Testing back and forth between the badger brush and the foam (hey, it's there, why not try it?) brush didn't yield much difference. The badger leaves a finer texture behind, but the featherweight foam brush permits a MUCH more delicate touch, six of one, halfdozen of the other, neither gave the consistent results I was after.

I thought I had it about right at 150%, so I did the transom (good idea Rick, thanks) but it just wasn't quite there. I did a roller-only test panel and was sold. I painted the rest of the boat roller-only. I'll recoat the transom on Saturday, probably.

I'll be able to post pics later.

[Figment]

Rolled and tipped with badger hair brush:


Roller only:

[grampianman]

Lovely job!

Cheers,
Ian

[D Wrate]

I used Pettit Easypoxy, used Penetrol as my reducer, applied it with foam rollers vertically and tipped it off horizontally. Worked like a charm.