Question on chartplotters

[Mark.Wilme]

Recap : We are considering a new boat or a recent model used boat and are looking at specs etc. As you know we think we want a modern crusing boat (previous threads refer) and want good electronics.

The current trend appears to be to install Raymarine TP60 instruments, senders, TP6002 auto pilots and either the C series or the E series combination chartplotter displays.

With the C series you can have one display in the boat and one thus has to decide whether to place it at the helm or at the Nav station - I can just picture all those people crashing into something whilst cossetted down below staring at a small screen, so if it is one screen you know where my money is.

But the E series offers the ability to have multiple networked displays, one at the helm and one at the Nav (one in the head too if you prefer). The E80 has a 640 x 480 resolution 8.4" screen, the E120 has 800 x 600 12.1" screen. Both of them are pretty slick with the ability to overlay radar onto the chartplotter so you can see which of the radar returns are supposed to be there (landmassses, ATONs etc) and more importantly which are not (other vessels etc).



Anyway, they aren't cheap. The best price I can get on a E120 if I were buying one is $3,500 (wow). I can buy a really nice laptop with WXGA resolution for that kind of money and then I began to think - if that's the case why can't one buy a laptop, maybe a 14" LCD monitor and maybe a small keyboard, mouse/trackball and install them below (mounting the laptop out of the way and the monitor in the Nav) and use these as an integrated part of the system (with added benefits) for way less money ?

Anyone any counsel on this or an opinion on why not ?

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Mark,


I can't speak to the dedicated unit vs laptop question, I do have an opinion on high end chartplotters though. While being able to overlay radar images on the screen is pretty nice you can, with practice, do the same job with paper charts, a small gps, and onboard radar.

The feature I'm looking at in high end chartplotters these days is the ability to overlay real-time NEXRAD weather satallite data on the chartplotter screen. It's like having the "Channel 10" color dopplar radar images available to you in real time at any time. You can watch weather fronts move, zoom from 1500 miles to a few feet, exactly determine when a front is going to hit, know exactly when the storm will be over, know exactly the strength of a weather system, know exactly where the strong cells are in a frontal line so you can avoid them, etc. It tracks something like 18 types of data too -- things like wave height, surface wind speed, surface temperature, etc -- all in real time. An amazing technology that has only recently become available to cruising sailors. To me this is an invaluable navigation and safety tool and something that can't be replicated using other equipment on board. Takes all the guess work out of watching the weather. These units also incorporate the ability to overlay on-board radar and the other features you were mentioning. Check it out.


George

[Ceasar Choppy]

One issue I have with the difference between a laptop and chartplotter is amp hours. Most laptops draw somewhere between 3 - 4 amps at 12V-- either direct 12V or through an inverter (least efficient). Cost is less than $500.

Most chartplotters are set up to work with 12V directly and draw little power (how much exactly, I don't know). Cost is like yours-- in the $3K range.

I'm currently working on building a mini-itx type computer for the boat that uses flash memory and mini-HD with a 10" touch screen. So far, I've got the amps down to about 2 - 2.5 amps-- at least on paper. Cost is about $1000.

Its a winter project good for when its too cold to go to the boat. I'll let you know what happens.

anyone else explore this option?

[Allen]

I got an RL80CRC Plus with a 24 mi. radome used for $2000. The Raymarine site says it's a $6000 product. It is networkable. If you don't have to have new equipment, you ca save a lot.

[Eric]

I'm currently working on building a mini-itx type computer for the boat that uses flash memory and mini-HD with a 10" touch screen. So far, I've got the amps down to about 2 - 2.5 amps-- at least on paper. Cost is about $1000.

I've been noodling this option also. With the Triton, space is limited and the laptop feels too exposed when I'm out thrashing about. I'd like to achieve a PC-based all in one solution based on a rugged touch sensitive display that is small enough to mount on a swing out bracket, but capable of serving as a display for the occasional dvd (for the kids, don't you know ;-).

12v display options are limited as are pc based radar systems. Everything else looks to be pretty straight forward. I think this would be a cool community project for someone to host on a wiki somewhere...

-- E

[Harry James]

I have thought about the mini itx option, you can custom build the case to fit about anywhere. The display is the issue, most LCD's are DC but finding touch screen weather resistant ones is difficult and very expensive. Most people don't build there own PC's either, though it is not difficult. My current solution is an Itronix 250 laptop from ebay with a holux USB GPS. Total investment about $300 with the DC-DC power supply. It is weather resistant with touch screen and pretty tough. I am running SeaCLear the free nav program which is pretty good and free Raster scan charts from NOAA. All of the US charts are free on digits now. I am not sure about power draw yet. I will report back next fall on reliability and power usage.

[Mark.Wilme]

I just downloaded Sea Clear and loaded up the NOAA charts I already have - pretty slick. I actually have a handheld Garmin GPS, I may try getting a $20 cable off of ebay and trying this before investing any big bucks.

thanks !!!

[Harry James]

http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/download.htm

For the Noaa downloads if you didn't have it

[Mark.Wilme]

Thanks, I already have them from playing around with a demo of Rose Points Coastal Explorer software.

[Mark.Wilme]

Harry,

I downloaded SeaClear the other week and loaded up my existing NOA charts. Hmm, nice.

Then last week I ordered a cable off of Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/eTrex-GOLD-Data-Pow ... dZViewItem) and it arived today. I hooked it up to my laptop / handheld gps and BINGO, it works out of the box - cool.

Thanks

[Mark.Wilme]

Caessar Choppy,

You say :

I'm currently working on building a mini-itx type computer for the boat that uses flash memory and mini-HD with a 10" touch screen. So far, I've got the amps down to about 2 - 2.5 amps-- at least on paper. Cost is about $1000.

How do you plan to get the right power supply to that ? I'm looking at using an old laptop I have, it requires 20v at 3.5A. I "could" use an inverter and then the AC charger but that's innefficient. Is there an easy way to modify the power or am I looking at a $50 adapter ?

[Ceasar Choppy]

There are DC-DC power supplies out there...
Here is one example for the computer I'm thinking of building:
http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info ... cts_id/179

As far as DC-DC power supplies for your laptop, it depends on the laptop you have. I've seen them out there for some laptops before I started this project, but haven't really looked closely lately. My main concern is AMP draw. If I can find a laptop that will do an efficient DC-DC draw for 2.5 amps, I'd buy it instead of fooling around trying to build my own.

While chartplotters are very efficient at 12v, they only do one thing and comparativly, I think they cost too much for what a computer can do.

This is really just an experiment for now I guess. I've been on the bleeding edge of technology before and it can hurt sometimes.
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[Mark.Wilme]

The laptop I have is an old Dell Latitude CPi (Pentium II or III I believe), uses 20v at 3.5A.

I also have an old Thinkpad that used 16v at 3.5A also, but that one has adefective serial port so the GPS won't connect.

It has cost me $20 so far for the cable, already had the gps and both laptops.

[Ceasar Choppy]

How many amps does it draw?

[Mark.Wilme]

3.5A

I found an old NEC PI 133Mhz the other day that runs 20v at 2.5A but getting data onto the thing is an issue, no USB, No network port and only a 3.5" floppy.

Actually if anyone wants it you can probably have it for the cost of the shipping. PM me.

[Summersdawn]

You should be able to find a PCMCIA card that would allow USB or network.

What OS are you running? USB needs 98 or above to work, and even then, the USB device needs to be old enough to have drivers that work with Windows 98.

You should be able to find an old PCMCIA Network card with drivers that would work with Win95 or 98.

Some of the old portable CD-ROM drives connect to a parallel interface. Does your laptop have a paralled port?

Or better yet, can you borrow any of the above to get the data onto your laptop? Once it is up and running, you probably don't need to put updates on it very often (assuming the goal here is to create an "appliance" for your navigation suite).

[Bob L]

Regarding Mini-ITX DC PCs: This is the way to go, at least for the nav station. The VIA boards vary in power consumption, but Mini-Box has a power consumption calculator right on their website!
http://resources.mini-box.com/online/po ... lator.html

If you don't want to build one yourself, IslandTime PC specializes in them. The key to a good boat-PC it seems is as many serial ports (RS232, not USBs). Most of the VIA Epia boards come with 1 serial port installed and an additional one built into the motherboard that can be accessed with a cable going to a hole in the case. The Epia PD10000 has 4 RS 232 built in! If you get a VIA Epia board that has only 1 or 2 serial ports you add 2 RS232 serial ports with an expansion card. The Epia boards have only 1 expansion slot, but 2 can be added with a riser.

One of the cool things you can do with the serial ports is add a dedicated VHF receiver and turn your PC into a "radar" to plot commerical ships in your area. http://www.shipplotter.com/

For playing movies, I think the best option is one of those laptop mini DVD players - supposedly they draw a lot less juice. You can play it through the same monitor used for the PC.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Bob, that home-made AIS receiver looks interesting. Definitely something I am looking to add. So far I've found these:

http://www.nobeltec.com/products/prod_a ... es_ais.asp
http://store.milltechmarine.com/smrasraisre.html

Adding more serial ports was a consideration as well, although the amp draw remains the priority. Biggest concern right now is the OS and the Harddrive.

Apparently if you have XP and the like, the page file read/write will wear out a compact flash in no time. Using a CF or similar is, I think is the key to keeping the amp draw down, since a traditional HD takes a lot of amps.

BTW: when discussing amp draw, remember that it has to be amp draw at 12v. If it goes through an inverter, the AC 110v amps need to be converted to DC 12v amps which can mean an increase x10.

[Bob L]

You also have to take the boat's other power consumption into consideration: If computing power is the priority, then replace lights with LEDs or florescent, shut off the fridge and drink warm beer, use a vane instead of autopilot, etc.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I want to drink cold beer while naviguessing with my computer. :)