Comparisons?

[Howard]

Wondering how the 29' and/or 30' Bristols sail, in comparion to the Triton?

I'm thinking of a combination of a lot of things....speed, performance to weather, ability to handle rough weather, etc.

But also, what about quality of contruction? Same? Better? Worse?

Howard

[tikvah59]

Howard,

I've only sailed on a Bristol 29.9, and in relatively calm waters. It's more lively than a Triton, but I wonder if it might pound a bit more in a seaway. It's more beamy than a Triton, and like many of the Bristols I've seen, more of the interior is finished with natural wood (albeit veneer).

You may know that the Bristol 29 has a modified full keel with attached rudder, while the B29.9 has a shorter keel with a skeg-hung rudder (a centerboard model was also available). The B30 also had a modified full keel and came as shoal-draft with a centerboard or deeper draft without.

A great source for Bristol information is the Doug Axtell's site:

http://members.aol.com/bristolyht/

[David]

I own a B 29. The 29.9 is a much newer boat, different altogether. The old 29 or 30 which is almost an identical boat to the 29, is very solid, 8.5 ft beam, 8400# displacement with 3500# of ballast, 22'-8" lwl. The 29 has almost the same design calculations as the Triton. Like the Triton it has a deck stepped mast, cutaway forefoot on the keel, ecapsulated ballast, keel-hung rudder, dog house. The interior is classic Herreshoff--lots of off white formica and real mahogany trim.

Theoretical hull speed: 6.38 kts.
Displacement-to-length ratio: 322.0
SA/D ratio: 15.62
Ballast-to-displacement ratio: 41.07
Capsize screening ratio: 1.67
CCA rating 24.4

David

[Howard]

The reason I ask is that within a day's drive, I know of a Bristol 29 and a 30 that are for sail.......one is good shape....one fair, but both are relatively cheap. About the same as some decent Tritons, as near as I can tell. And they are newer than the Tritons, not that it makes much difference. I think I prefer the layout.

But if they don't sail as well.........

[David]

The biggest problems you may encounter with the Bristols will be the hull to deck joint, which in these boats is screwed with self-tapping machine screws instead of thru-bolted. You will probably see that the toe rail is cracked near the genoa track. You may find some soft spots in the decks. The original boats mostly came with A-4's--an upgrade you could order was to replace the A-4 with a Volvo MD2B which is a very slow turning, but almost indestructable engine (its biggest problem being finding replacement Bosch regulators for the starter/generator setup--150 dollars and still can be ordered). You should not have any concerns about the deck maststep nor the compression structure that supports it. The fuel tank mounted under the cockpit is Monel; the water tank is in the bilge and may be pin holed after all these years--mine was.

As to the boat's sailing ability, it was designed by Halsey Herreshoff and is a variation of the H-28 designed by Francis Herreshoff. The boat is a wonderful sailor, very forgiving, very easy motion in a seaway. She can be oversailed and you will not feel her want to stall out, nor will you ever feel like her rudder is losing its bite and stalling. I have singlehanded my B29 for the past 15 years and always felt safe and secure. You can't go wrong with either the 29 or the 30, or a Triton for that matter.

Good luck,

David

[Dave, 397]

I do not feel you can go wrong with most any of these boats...they all have their weak and strong points, but you sure can't run down to the store and buy anything like this anymore. If you like the boat and are understanding that you will no doubt be doing some work, get it! I see that prices likely to go up in the years to come in my crystal ball, right?

I'm partial to Carl A.'s work, but that is only preference based on experience. If I'd sailed Herreshoff stuff, I'd probably be partial to it instead.

BTW, as a piece of trivia, I guess that THE Herreshoff happened/was invited by his old yard to see the Pearsons' new operation back in the day. Asked what the thought, his reply of opinion was "Frozen Snot"!

Dave

[Figment]

Pearsons were built on the site of the former Herreshoff yard?

I never knew that.
I always assumed that they were located in that newer industrial area off of Gooding avenue.... up where Carroll and all of those others are now. or, were.... did I read somewhere that Carroll went bankrupt, or got bought-up by someone?

[David]

They actually started out in the old Herreshoff shops in 57 I believe, at least prior to 61 at which time they sold the business to Grumann Allied and it was moved to Portsmouth. Clint left in 64 to start Bristol Yachts. Everett left Grumann in 66 and soon after started his relationship with Tillotson.

David

[Howard]

Another boat in this league is the old Columbia 29. An S&S design. I ran into a guy last summer who had purchased one in CT, and had sailed it through NYC, down the Atlantic to Norfolk and the Chesapeake, through December....with snow flying.....all without a working engine. It didn't look pretty, but she was very rough when he got her, and he was working on things. The main thing was she could handle the weather and sailed really well.

So many boats....so little time.

Howard

[Tim]

did I read somewhere that Carroll went bankrupt, or got bought-up by someone?

Yes, they are indeed out of business after something like 20 years or so. Another victim of overexpansion "for expansion's sake"? Not sure. I once interviewed for a job there, many many many years ago. It was, at the time, a nice smallish operation.

[Howard]

Tim and Others:

I've found several promising Bristol 29's and 30's. One is very near to Tim (the one I wrote about that is cheap.....errrr....not expensive ($5,000). It's a "standard" model. The others are dinettes. For those with experience, which would be the prefered layout?

From the pictures I've seen, the Standard interior would need some modification to the galley, and I'm taking that into account. But would I be better off starting off with the dinette in the first place? The difference in cost of the boats, assuming everything else is equal, is about $5,000 to $7,000.

Howard

[Dave, 397]

I think it depends what you want the boat for, but I have a real dislike for the dinette layouts myself...I'd rather have a seaberth there with locker space behind and not have an erector-set of a berth that blocks up the sole when assembled and robs valuable stowage space...but again it depends on what you want to use the boat for.

Dave

[David]

Howard,

Is it the 29 or the 30 you are interested in? I am not aware of any layout for the 29 other than the dinette layout (from the factory that is--certainly the boat you are looking at may have been modified). I have the dinette model and it works very nicely for cruising: the dinette coverts very quickly to a berth but doesn't interfere with traffic thru the cabin. With both the large quarter berth and the portside "kids" quarter berth, plus the vee berth, you may not need to use the dinette for sleeping at all. The advantage of the dinette layout is the large galley and the ability to cook meals, have lots of counter space, as well as good drawer space and storage.

David

[Tim]

I think dinettes can be nice if they are well designed, don't cut too much into the flow of the passageways, and if you don't have a need to always convert back and forth from a berth. I'm not much into converting things. Also, as Dave mentioned, it does away with a sea berth--but for most people, sea berths are unnecessary.

I like dinettes in general because the "always there" table is handy not only for eating, but for writing, charts, food prep, social gathering, etc. The lack of a table of any kind in a Triton (or at least in mine) has its downside--and again, even with a table I would end up with the convertible mess that I dislike. (This is why I still have no table going into my fourth season...)

Nothing is worse, however, than a boat with a dinette crammed in where there really isn't room. In an ideal world, I would choose a dinette in a cruising boat, assuming other more important criteria were met first.

I think the choice of whether or not to have a dinette is entirely personal, so if you feel strongly one way or the other then by all means choose the appropriate version.

[Howard]

The Standard model is a 1972 Bristol 30. It has a fold down bulkhead table and settee's, port and starboard. The foot of the starboard side bunk extends forward through the bulkhead into the wet locker. It appears to have a tiny galley to starboard, some of which can't be reached because of the motor cover/step. I would think that most of that starboard side would need to be converted to a decent sized galley, with maybe just a nice seating area left over. The benefit here, again, is that the boat is available and is less than half the price of comparable boats with dinettes. But there may be other reasons why it's cheap. Clearly, one needs to survey it closely.

It seems to me that the dinette, with galley down the starboard side is the better setup for me.....as a single hander. Again, a decent sized galley, with the table always there, seating fore and aft. You always have a table to eat on, work on things, a chart table, etc. And it could be converted to a double if something came up (no pun intended). One could sit/sleep in the starboard quarterberth, or up front if not underway.

But the bottom line is that both arrangements are out there, and both can be made to work. Both claim to sleep 5, and I only need to worry about 1.....probably 2 or 3 at most.....so there are lots of options to improve things.

Howard

[Howard]

I've been keeping an eye open for a Triton....it's hard to consider myself a serious buyer until I sell my existing boat......but so far, most of what I've seen are all project boats. In about 5 or 10 years, I'll be interested in one of those, but for now....I'd like to find one in good shape....ready to jump on an go. How hard are these to find?

In my world of fuzzy math, I figure maintenance of all of them is about the same. It's getting them to the point where maintenance is all you have to do that's expensive.

An alternative is to move up to a similar, but more modern design, like the Sea Sprite 28. I have found some of those....and in really good shape. But the price also goes up 3x to 5x the Tritons......but of course gaining condition. So which is the best way to go?

And while we are at it........how about the Sea Sprite? Is it a decent performing boat?

Howard

[Howard]

How did I become the "bottom sanding grunt"? That's already taken.

I'm more like "pucker factor tester".

Howard

[Tim]

Just about all Tritons are, or were at one time, project boats. By their very nature, being 40+ years old or so, this is to be expected. Many end up abandoned or semi-abandoned, which presents unique project possibilities for those interested or crazy enough to undertake them. There are a few that have been nicely upgraded and henceforth maintained, but these tend to be kept by their owners, understandably.

Occasionally, you can stumble into a relative gem: a Triton that may have had a recent owner who upgraded her sails, engine, or systems, and then promptly lost interest in the boat, or some such. (Or, in many cases, sadly, died.) These boats are out there, but are hard to find sometimes. Often, these potentially good boats languish on the market because their sellers (or, worse, brokers) insist on placing a too-high price on the boat, often based on the sellers' sentimentality or some such. Other times, you can get lucky and find a decent boat with some good upgrades--sailable, but still needing some work--for a fair price. Often, you have to overlook the asking price and push forward with a more realistic offer that is much lower. This can sometimes be a hard sell, but since surveys on such boats usually turn up a host of not-insignificant problems, it is much easier to justify a lower offer. Frankly, in the current market, even well-kept Tritons can only be worth so much. Most are worth much less by the time they come to market, but virtually all of them--better and less good ones alike--need some fairly substantial upgrading and, sometimes, major repairs (i.e. decks), even if the remainder of the boat is seemingly well-maintained and/or upgraded. Don't be afraid of Tritons with higher asking prices, but DO be very wary of claims of excellent condition, highly upgraded, etc. In most cases, these boats turn out to be barely better than their true project brethren.

I was recently contacted by the daughter of one long-time Triton owner, who recently passed away. This man had made many recent upgrades to his Triton, and she was looking for a way to sell it. I never heard back from a return email that I sent, but here is her contact information, if you are interested in cold-calling. The boat is in Connecticut.

Perhaps someone can help me out. My father passed away on April 14, Tore Anderson, Triton No. 134. He was the original owner, I was 5 years old when he bought the Anne's Joy in 1960. I have inherited the boat which is located at Cedar Point Yacht Club in Westport, Connecticut. Unfortunately, I live in Alabama now, and not near the shore, and so the boat is up for sale. My father made a hobby of working on this boat, it us in beautiful condition with new sails and diesel engine, it really looks nice and sails beautifully.

Thank you,
Karen Abel
Eclectic, Alabama
334-857-2576
[email protected]

This boat could be that sort of rare gem, or not. Check it out, though. You can see some pictures of this boat on the NETA website.

[Tim]

Sea Sprites and Other Boats

An alternative is to move up to a similar, but more modern design, like the Sea Sprite 28. I have found some of those....and in really good shape. But the price also goes up 3x to 5x the Tritons......but of course gaining condition. So which is the best way to go?

It is always less expensive to buy someone else's good maintenance and upgrades...providing that you are happy with their work, and with the equipment that has been upgraded. This is a big "if", though. One must eye any upgrades and new equipment with a critical eye to determine if such things actually justify the proposed asking price or not. Many sellers have an inflated idea as to what their upgrades are worth: my favorite thing is when a seller lists off all the things he has added, ticking off their purchase prices on his fingers as if it had any bearing on what value they added to the boat itself.

The biggest thing to consider when waffling about this sort of question is, first of all: what is it worth to you, personally, to have a boat in good condition and ready to sail, requiring only regular maintenance? Usually, if one does not enthusiastically seek out a project boat for the sake of the project, it makes better financial sense to just buy the boat that is already in better condition. This assumes that you are not looking at the cheaper boat and planning on making cheap and unsuitable repairs and upgrades; if so, then I'm not the person to talk to. Note that substandard and inadequate repairs and upgrades tend to add no value to a boat, and, in some cases, actually detract from the value.

Nothing is worse than buying a project boat for the wrong reasons. Few things can be more dispiriting than buying a beat up old boat, all glistening-eyed and enthusiastic for your sailing adventures, only to discover, 5 years later, that you're still not sailing, and you hate working on your boat.

This is not to suggest that you should not buy a project boat that is still sailable, and then be prepared to use the boat as is and accept all her flaws and inadequacies in the meantime, while upgrading and improving as time, motivation, and budget allow. But such a venture is far different from the sort of major project boat that is unusable as is, and that would require substantial work and investment before even going sailing. Unless you truly want this for the sake of it, then avoid it: you will not save money in this instance, and may actually spend more--or, worse, never even get the boat wet. Or, alternatively, you could find yourself being forced to cut corners in the work you find you have to do, else it become financially untenable. My feeling is that you must be prepared to spend whatever it takes to do the job right, or else don't go this route. You can be as frugal and cost-conscious as you need to be, as long as it's not at the expense of the resulting project.

I could go on and on forever here: this subject is near and dear for me. But that's the gist of it. Basically: don't buy a project boat as a means of saving money. Buy one as the means of getting, eventually, the boat you want, catered to your desires and needs--assuming that the road to that end is a road you want to travel in the first place. If not, then search for a boat that is newer, and in better condition at the onset--and will therefore likely have a higher price tag. Somewhere in there is the proper balance for everyone.

There's a Sea Sprite 28 in my anchorage. It's a decent-looking boat, though this particular one is not that well maintained, which detracts from its appearance. It's a Bill Luders design with a nice tall, fractional rig that seems well-proportioned, and a so-called "modern traditional" full keel and attached rudder, so I expect that the boat sails well. I see a couple of these on Yachtworld for over $30,000 each. From the pictures I see in these listings, I honestly don't see anything too special about them, and couldn't see paying that much money for one myself. There's nothing wrong with them, but nothing too noteworthy either. Pretty basic stuff.

All I see is a need to improve, personalize, and upgrade further--after all, these boats are 20-25 years old already, which is much less than 40 but is far from being a spring chicken. I believe the boats are generally well-constructed (CE Ryder), but for such a generally basic boat these asking prices seem too much to me. Maybe in the low-mid 20s instead...

Again: what is any boat truly worth to YOU, given what you know, what you want--and don't want--to do, and all the other information at your disposal? That's the only true definition of market value. I think it makes sense to broaden your search for similar boats, but beware of overinflated values on many similar boats--most of which, being 15-30 years old themselves, are likely at the point of requring upgrades anyway.

Other thoughts: you can sometimes find older, pretty basic, Cape Dory 27s and 28s for low-mid teens. If the boat is structurally and mechanically sound, this can be a fair deal, assuming you like the boats. But many Cape Dorys are, to my eye, overpriced for what they are, so take each for its own merits. Some of the older ones are startlingly basic and fiberglass-liner-y inside, yet still manage to command prices in the 20s. Still, it's a possibility, if you're broadening to the Sea Sprite anyway.

[Howard]

Tim....thanks for the long and thoughtfull reply. Confirms exactly my experiences. My current boat......I paid $4,000....then spent at least that on upgrades.....5 new sails, new cushions, tiller, rudder, rigging, ground tackle, repaired core damage, etc. I probably won't get 20 cents on the dollar for my upgrades. So....based on that, I'm looking for a boat that has had similar treatment so I don't have to go through that again. For now...I'm looking for a boat that is ready to go.....it can have some problems.....they all do....but I'm hoping to avoid any "Glissando" projects for now....ergo moving up to something more modern that has been maintained....perhaps by the original owner. But if you wind up paying double for something that is no better.....that doesn't make sense either.

One thing that concerns me about various owner projects on the older boats is the skill level of the guy doing the work. I've seen enough of your work to have 100% faith in that.....but I'm also suscribed to two lists (the spam that creates is HUGE!), and I see questions asked like "I'm getting ready to replace the main bulkheads.....how do you mix epoxy?". No telling what you will find on these boats.

I guess the solution to that is to look carefully at the boat, ask some pointed questions....realizing that the fix may have been done 20 years ago by who knows who.....and take your chances.

Thanks for the advice.

Howard

(still looking)

[Howard]

This still has me as the "bottom sanding grunt".

That has got to change........

[Tim]

This still has me as the "bottom sanding grunt".

That has got to change........

Well, you'll just have to keep posting, then! The designations change depending on your post count. Everyone was "bottom sanding grunt" for a while...think of it as an incentive to come here and post often! (Well, everyone except me: as the list owner, I can do whatever I want! More of that megalomaniac stuff, I guess...)

Alternatively, I accept bribes to come up with a unique designator for you. hehe...

[Howard]

Tim wrote:

Well, you'll just have to keep posting, then! The designations change depending on your post count. Everyone was "bottom sanding grunt" for a while...


Ahhhh.....a rite of passage? Now it makes sense. I just didn't recall having put that one down. "Pucker Factor Tester" does fit me.....but usually it's my own that's being tested. That applies to sailing....as well as hacking into what appears to be perfectly good fiberglass. [/b]