Interior lighting systems

[Robert The Gray]

Hey all,

I have been thinking lately about led lights. One of the main uses of power when I am on a cruise are my incandescent lights down below. I prefer them to flourescent because of the light quality and kerosene lanterns send off fumes that seem to ruin my food. When I was redoing whisper's interior there was a point where I questioned the purchase of all those fixtures and running all that wire to them. All my other electronics are centralised around the engine and companionway but the lights are everywhere. My thoughts are this: I have seen an increase in the number of battery powered led lights. The camping headlamps have been around for a while and I have used them without the headstrap screwed to the bulkhead in the head compartment. but now I am seeing small reading lights with up to 14 leds
and tack up lights such as this
http://www.wholesalemarine.com/p/I-L-00 ... Light.html
At what point does the model of a centralised battery for all lighting become out of date. Why not individual battery powered fixtures. With the led's minimal power usage the batteries would not need to be changed out that much. I am thinking that if I was creating a new interior for a small over night cruiser I would think that there would be some appeal to the idea of running no wires and having one fewer battery.

On a seperate subject that should perhaps be included in the rant section, why are led running lights so expensive? Some thing I have seen are lights for power boats under 20 feet. Would these work for a sailboat?

r

[Hirilondë]

I have LED running lights, They cost about twice what incandescent would have but use less than 1/4th the electricity and will probably never need replacing and don't need bulbs. OK, never might be optomistic, but a looong time.

The problem with using them for general lighting is the color and the feel. They are too blue for my taste.

They are now starting to come out with LED inserts for existing conventional fixtures. When these come down to a reasonable price I can see them becoming very popular.

[Figment]

It might help to categorize your lighting into General Lighting and Task Lighting.

Just about anything will work for General Lighting, which is really just about having enough light to move around without bonking into things. LEDs are well suited to this.

Task Lighting can have all sorts of requirements depending on the task. Sometimes nothing beats a good old incandescent for reading that well worn copy of Walden.

I think there is merit to the idea of self-powered fixtures, if for no other reason than that you'll have some working lights if your primary system ever goes dead on you.
I think the strongest argument against them is the environmental argument. "Disposable" alkaline batteries are just environmentally evil. A well-monitored and maintained central battery bank has a far greater life cycle to offset its own evil.

[jollyboat]

Robert,
You bring up a good question about the centralized battery system but the answer can be as subjective as you want it to be. The advantages of the the centralized battery are so many that the list is too long to include. To continue lets look at your poll. 40% at the time I looked at it said that oil lamps are the way to go. I am one of those 40 percenters. My house electircs I use sparingly as I do not want to run down the 'house' battery. My electric lamps are the original 12v incondesent lamps that came factory installed in the Triton. Overall the lamps do not use up that much power, they suite the interior and period of the boat and cast off a nice warm light. The ladies like the electrics too, and flip switches with reckless abandon, especially while in the head. In the mean time I use parafin in my oil lamps and keep the wicks trimmed to reduce fumes and soot. The problem that I see with small batteries in use per LED fixture is that the salt environment takes it toll on them quickly. They tend to burst thier casings and leak acid. Another issue is the wirering inside of the lights - it tends to break down quickly in the salt air. There is also the issue of accidental groundings which can really cause a lot of damage for obvious reasons but also anything that is not very well secured down below will go flying, batteries included. My two cents.

[s/v Faith]

I like my 10w halogen reading lamps to read by. You can find the fixtures at hardare stores for much less then the 'marine'. Lowes has a brushed stainless fixture for track lighting that is not too hard to figure out a mount for. The light is pleasant, and there is more light per amp then incandescent.

I have a florescent 12v bulb screwed into one of my original fixtures.... gives a good amount of light, but I really don't care for the color.

Used white LED clusters in a couple places, like the low current draw and the smaller wire that allows. These are ok for the head, and I like them for red lights but agree with the earlier posts that they are not good for general lighting due to their color.

I also have a battery lantern that is good in the cockpit, but I don't like to use it too much because I don't like to change batteries often.

[Mike]

I?ve purchased some lights for my US yacht restoration project even though I am a ways away from installing them. The boat had yellowed brittle plastic RV fixtures inside it which I threw out. I have a couple of the Seachoice stainless round dome lights which seem ok. They are stamped stainless with a nice glass lens. While I would have preferred something machined the price was right ($15) and they look pretty decent. I?m hoping to convert those to LED. Also I?ve purchased an Alpenglow light which is compact fluorescent with the red LED option for night vision. A guy makes them in Montana and he advertises in a lot of magazines. What?s interesting is he is taking a 10W compact fluorescent bulb and guts the electronics from the bulb and fills that part with latex caulk. The ballast inside his fixture is all that is needed to light them. He provides instructions on how to convert them yourself but I just bought extras when I purchased the light from him. It draws around .85 amps on the high setting and gives off quite a bit of light. When I bought it I thought I could make a more efficient LED light for less. Most of the LED lights on the market are just a few LED?s with a resistor and no voltage regulation. There are much more efficient ways of driving LED?s. More expensive and newer LED?s don?t have the blue hue to them. There are many advantages to using LED?s. Properly implemented they produce almost no heat, with a life of 100,000 hours there is no need to replace bulbs and they draw very little current with a light that is easier on the eyes than fluorescent. They won?t burn out from vibration like standard bulbs will, and newer ones won?t change hue with age. I hope to convert my spreader lights with a Bayonet socket/LED light converter I have seen that?s been marketed for both marine and automotive applications. I?d love to hear from someone who has one of the expensive interior lights from Hellamarine. I might buy one of the the Sensibulb?s from sailorsolutions.com because that appears to be technologically ahead of most of the LED lights on the market. However, their use of a heat sink tells me they are probably not being driven very efficiently. A review of the Sensibulb said it wasn?t as bright as a 10W halogen.

I think individual battery operated lights would be a pain and would likely not hold up to frequent battery changes. I never have or can find spare batteries when I need them, necessitating a trip to Walmart which is never fun.

Robert ? LED?s are expensive compared to bulbs because there is often more than one being used. Using only one LED would give you light that is too directional. Designing them is also more difficult and expensive then just using a standard socket in a fixture. Converting a regular fixture to LED can be done easily with the purchase of a conversion and some soldering. Some of them even have socket adapters so no soldering required.

[Tim]

I have little doubt that LEDs will come down in price as they gain acceptance and popularity--just like anything. At the moment, while they are rapidly gaining interest, they are still the new kid on the block.

I like regular incandescent lighting best. The yellowish glow of a regular light bulb is like an old friend, and has the sort of lighting character that I am used to. This goes for my house as well as my boat. It's probably just a matter of being used to the light, rather than any particular advantage. But if you like cozy spaces, only incandescents will provide the right character of light color.

Personally, I'm not interested in oil lamps (electricity is darn handy), but they do provide a certain j'ne sai qois that no other type of lamp can. I understand why people like them; I just have no interest in them myself. I don't have oil lamps in my house, and don't want to mess with them on my boat either.

Halogens are good for a lot of things, particularly reading and task lighting something like a galley, but halogen bulbs are intensely bright and white, and also get quite hot. I wouldn't want them as my only lighting source, but in the right application they are excellent.

Fluorescent bulbs are cold and jittery, and I don't like the character of the light, no matter how "warm" some of the newer ones are supposed to be. To me, they're only good for wide area lighting like shops and garages and warehouses. If you don't mind the character of fluorescent lighting, then it makes a great choice for a number of reasons. I just can't get by the character.

I think most cruising boat interiors could probably benefit from a variety of lighting types. Halogens or LEDS in the galley and a few select reading areas, incandescents for "mood" and general lighting, and some fluorescent strips for low-energy consumption, particularly during sea passages (if applicable). A few individual lights with their own battery power source are probably a good idea for emergency use as well, but I wouldn't want my boat filled with them; running wires from a house bank is a one-time affair, after which you never have to worry about your lighting again. Storing, changing, and disposing of myriad smaller batteries would probably become a pain in short order.

Certainly there is no single correct answer here. Personal tastes, more than anything else, will dictate how one goes about lighting their boat. Even the most inefficient incandescent fixture on your boat is pretty miserly considering how long they are typically in use, so we're talking a matter of incremental degrees in terms of energy consumption.

[Robert The Gray]

These have been fantastic answers. I too feel that warm light is the best. It is just if I have four fixtures going at once, the radio blasting, and a fan to move the air, and the anchor light on I am ending up having to run the motor to charge the battery more than I would like, especially in the winter when the nights are long.
I do not know if the environmental effect of the deisel is worse than some rechargable batteries properly disposed of after a years worth of use. The point with the leds is that they use so little power the battery last much longer.
With my electrical and manufacturing skills I am at the mercy of the market and what it offers, we will see where the technology goes in the next couple of years. All our traffic signals and every tractor trailor rig seems to be rigged with leds at this point. The constuction trades should be slow to change, innovation is always risky and buildings and boats are expensive, they also can fall on people and sink under them. My desire is not to lower standards and get by on the cheap, I am rather looking for novel methods to reduce my consumption of all the materials I use in my life. But then again I also want to take over my own animal protein production from the animal protein production industry by growing and harvesting my own chickens. O' look! My wife is smiling her annoyed indulgent smile! I am renting now and I am not sure how my landlord would like me giving her back yard to the hens. The neighbors might frown on the rooster as well.
thanks for the opinions and facts everyone.

r

[Summersdawn]

It seems to me your biggest concern is over having to run the engine to keep the batteries charged up. Your stereo will consume more juice than a handful of incandescents, why not switch to a portable battery operated stereo? The D Cells will last a while in one. You could get a battery charger and rechargable batteries for it.

A solar panel will also provide the juice you need to run a few lights as well. Have one trickle your batteries all day so you can run your lights for a few hours at night.

A few battery powered lights kicking around is a good idea, but personally I wouldn't use them exclusively.

[Ceasar Choppy]

After having completely re-wired my P-39 last year, I had to comment here.

Before I re-wired the boat, the PO had the panel breakers wired for the interior lights in such a way that if you had more than two lights on at time, the breakers would trip. This was apparently to prevent his kids from draining the house battery. That was the first thing I removed.

I also put in much more task lighting. I was wondering why I was seeing so many more light fixtures on boats at the boat show... and then it dawned on me that the trick to conserving electricity is to use the light you need for the task at hand instead of trying to fill the cabin with light.

Re the LED thing. I have used LEDs wherever possible and in places I would never consider putting a light (interior storage cabinets or anchor locker for e.g.). LEDs are great for Navigation lights and things like Anchor lights. The price needs to come down though to be effectively useful i.e. less than the cost of a new battery bank! (anyone ever see what they want for a Lopolight for example?)

I agree the blue isn't really great for the interor-- but they do make them in a warm white now which looks like somewhere between candlelight and yellow florecence. Still better than the blue.

[CharlieJ]

We have three types aboard, plus some individual battery powered lights. A friend ( On TSBB) makes and sells LED fixtures with 16 yellow white and 4 red LEDs with adouble pole switch. We have one of those in the fore cabin and one in the main cabin. Those lights are area lights, meaning you can see well enough to do chores- straighten the boat, make the bed change clothes, etc, but they aren't bright enough to read by.

On the bulkhead in the main cabin we also have a small oil lamp. We used that as our only lighting ( except for battery ones) during one six weeks cruise and it worked ok, considering we were usually in bed by dark and up at daylight, so didn't ( and still don't) use much lighting.

Over the stove galley area I have a strong incandescent in a brass mounting - came off a PSC 25. That serves as a task light for dishes, cooking etc. For cockpit lighting we hang a small 4 bulb LED unit that uses either 2 or 4 of the bulbs. That gives good "conversation" lighting out there.

On the Tri I lived aboard, we had a florescent over the main cabin. It gave plenty of light to read by, but I never really liked the quality of light it provided.

Since we aren't "live aboards" but do definite cruises, we find we use very little lighting. We normally have supper eaten and dishes done well before dark and by dark, we're usually in the bunk. We normally get underway just as it's light enough to see in the mornings, so seldom use lights then either. Now a full time live aboard would have very different requirements

[DPTrainor]

This last year, I decided to replace my incandesent light bulbs with LED replacements. For years, I was waiting for the technology to improve to be "good enough". And it is now I think it is reaching a turning point in terms of good enough brightness, color and range. Yet still expensive in terms of initial cost. My goal was convervation of house battery amps. I know many people go the other way and add a larger alternator / charger / regulator / larger battery bank to meet the rising demands(refrig / AC / etc) which is fine. But I like simple - so, I decided to balance the electrical system by going the opposite direction. Rather than increasing power generation, I decided to decrease power consumption. For the interior lighting, I simply replaced the light bulbs with LED replacments. The best ones I found are: SensiBulb - http://www.sailorssolutions.com/ The light bulbs can plug right into existing double bayonet style or halogen G4 pin receptacles. The color is good but not quite as warm as incandesant bulbs but pretty good (not blueish or amberish tint as LEDs have been). The brightness is the same is a 10W blub and uses significantly less (1/6?) current. The range is about 120 degs wide. Initial cost is ridiculous :)

For exterior nav lights I choose: OMG http://www.orcagreen.com/ - I see no disadvantages here - the boat is actually far more visible and I don't have to worry about draining battery down on long night sails - the tradeoff is inital high cost.

I have not measured my reduction in power demands. but I have noticed I do not have to charge batteries as often. One of these days, I will make some actual measurements (average AH / per day/night saved)

Now I am looking at other ways to save, if possible. Each Amp saved is one less that needs to be generated.

[fusto]

For exterior nav lights I choose: OMG http://www.orcagreen.com/ - I see no disadvantages here - the boat is actually far more visible and I don't have to worry about draining battery down on long night sails - the tradeoff is inital high cost.

Ooooh, I like the masthead tricolor/anchor with photodiode and strobe, but the price makes me gag a little.
I'm re-doing my mast from scratch and I would love to use quality, smart, safety minded parts like this, but oh so cost prohibitive!

Cost... safety... cost... power savings... cost... gnnrrr so conflicted!

[Hirilondë]

anyone ever see what they want for a Lopolight for example?

LOL, yeah, I have, and when you figure that the steaming light comes with no means of attaching it to the mast and you have to spend over an hour making a custom bracket for the riggers to install it with it gets even worse. Its a good thing we charge by the hour!

[Tim]

I think I'd buy that tri-anchor light with strobe in a pair of seconds, price notwithstanding. $350 doesn't seem bad for a bright, energy-efficient light that does it all. We all know how junky normal running and anchor lights are. They don't last long, and aren't very bright, either.

I think masthead tri-colors offer the best visibility for a vessel under sail. Of course, one needs regular sidelights and sternlight for power operation, but the basic pulpit-mount cheapos would work fine here.

Plus, that strobe would be great for emergencies, or to make your boat stand out to another vessel at night if they don't seem to be responding properly to your regular lights. The goal is to be seen, after all. I'd turn on every light on the boat if I thought it was necessary.

I wouldn't hesitate to put one of those on any serious cruising vessel that had plans to be out at night. This assumes that the Orca Green light is a high quality unit that would hold up in its environment. Having not seen one, I don't know what they're like. For that money, I'd expect something pretty bulletproof.

[Rachel]

I've ordered three or four of the Orca Green Marine anchor/tri-color lights for customers (with and without the strobe and day/night switch) and I thought they looked like nice units. One customer whom I'd describe as somewhat particular came back after a two-week cruise and was very happy with his (including the day/night switch).

Also, OGM is very helpful when calling for more information.

One thing is that some of their (optional) switches have been a bit... well, not as nice as you'd hope. They told me they were re-designing them and took mine back with no complain.

I also ordered a set of their red/green bow lights and they are interesting. Flat black and not nautical looking (none of the Fresnelity you expect), they are very nicely machined and made, and come with beefy angled mounting brackets. Those were just put in stock and not on a boat.

However, the boat I just helped to deliver had just mounted a set of the same red/green lights and so I did get a chance to see them in action. They were very bright and worked well. I know they were brighter than the old (regular type) lights that were on the boat because of how bright the reflection was off the bow pulpit (the boat has a center mount for the lights to they reflect more than a typical installation). In fact, we put a few strips of black electrical tape on the pulpit to calm down the refelections.

So, although none of my experiences with OGM lights spans any great length of time, my limited experience with them is favorable.

[Ric in Richmond]

http://www.ledtronics.com/DS/tbl3xx/default.asp


VERY interesting!!!