Problem with Automotive paint ?

[feetup]

I see photo's of some of the beautiful work that some have done rolling and tipping with Awlgrip, and even finer work with spray, and I have read threads on the relative merits of different painting systems. What I have not read yet is about anyone using automotive paint.
Is there a reason why high end automotive painting systems, especially the urethanes used for trucks and aircraft ( Imron, Endura, Glasurit, Clovathane and many others) would be unsuitable for boat work, assuming that one could access a proper paint booth and equipment, and a good painter? They seem to last exceptionally well in the harsh environment of long haul trucks, and much of the bodywork on modern trucks is fiberglass.
The reason I ask, is that the local truck painters quote for topsides paint is WAY less then any of the local boatyards, and he has a proper downdraft booth long enough to paint a 45 foot semitrailer.

Any thoughts?

Feetup

[Peter]

Feetup:
I painted my San Juan 24 with DuPont Imron (sprayed at home).
I did the topsides in red, and the decks in an off-white, with gray non-skid.
It's been in the water a total of 12 months, and is standing up very well. I would use the same method again.

Having it done professionally in a proper spray booth would give you excellent results. Unfortunately there are no booths big enough in my area so I made a fresh air breathing mask, bought an HVLP spray gun, and shot it myself. It's not perfect by any means, but bright red is a very forgiving color :-)

From what I read on this forum, and on others, once you paint a hull, especially a different color, you are into repainting every few years. The reason I painted the SJ24 is that it had already been painted several times and needed stripping back to the original gelcoat.

[Figment]

I only know of one automotive painter who's done a boat, and his feedback on the job was that it's a LOT more difficult than auto body work, which is generally more about smaller areas and discontinuous surfaces. The final product was STUNNING, (a silvery-blue metallic paint on an old quarter-tonner) but far from effortless.

You're in a different situation, however. A truck painter must be accustomed to working on larger expanses of surface, and it certainly sounds like he has the ideal setup.

I'm sure others will chime in with more specifics, but I think the downside of the automotive/aircraft urethanes is that they're more difficult to touch-up when you inevitably rub a dock the wrong way.

[dasein668]

I'm sure others will chime in with more specifics, but I think the downside of the automotive/aircraft urethanes is that they're more difficult to touch-up when you inevitably rub a dock the wrong way.

Having touched up Awlgrip, I can hardly believe it's harder to touch up automotive paint... But maybe!

My question is do you need/want to clear-coat over top as is done with many car paint jobs? I'm very intrigued by the idea of automotive paint, since there are just so many more options out there.

[Summersdawn]

Several boats at the yacht club I keep my boats are painted in Endura. Imron is also a popular paint brand. Some of these boats were painted 10 years ago, and still look good. Any of these industrial polyuerathane paints will work fine.

A few years ago, some boat manufacturers painted there boats with Imron. I don't remember which, but they were high end power boats (I was more interested in the paint than the boat itself).

[feetup]

Peter:

Adios is beautiful. I love the color and the graphics. I always thought the San Juan 24 was a fine looking boat, actually my first choice when looking for my current boat, a US 25, which looks very similar, if perhaps a bit skinny across the fanny.

Feetup

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Feetup

The green paint job on my C&C 40 "Delphinus" ( before I painted it Stars and Stripes blue last year ) was done with Imron in 1981. Even after 25 years that Imron job didn't look half bad at any kind of a distance.

George

[Tim]

Imron is no stranger to boats, though not nearly as common as Awlgrip. Not being a car guy, I am not intimately familiar with the other brands of paint mentioned in this thread.

I have no idea what the differences in chemical makeup between a typical automotive paint and the benchmark for our purposes, Awlgrip. All of these paints differ from one another in certain ways; the various makeups must have effects one way or another on the paint's performance in the unique environment to which boats are subjected.

I'd love to branch out into the wider color realm available with common automotive paints. But I wouldn't do so without somehow getting a better grasp on the chemical makeup of the paint in question.

[Peter]

It's been in the water a total of 12 months, and is standing up very well. I would use the same method again.

That said, I have never painted a boat with marine paint (dinghy doesn't count) so my experience is very limited.

Having painted about 20 cars over the years, I have to say a boat hull is a lot nicer surface to work on!

[Summersdawn]

I don't know about the other paints, but Imron and Endura were originally developed as an industrial paint. They are polyuerathane, and I believe similar to Awlgrip/Alexseal type paints.

16 years ago, I worked at an autobody jobber, and mixing paint was one of my jobs (by no means am I expert - I have probably forgotten more about automotive paint than I remeber). We mostly dealt with DuPont paints. Just about the only place that regualarly purchased Imron was the shop that painted heavy equipment. They loved this paint, as it stood up well and had excellent gloss retention.

The body of a highway tractor is fiberglass. I would say that a place like this would probably be an excellent choice for painting a boat. They will know what they are doing. Like boaters and there boats, a lot of truckers take great pride in there trucks. They expect excellent results.

Back when I mixed paints, Imron was only being used ocasionally on cars and light trucks. Even though it was a superior paint to the acrylic enamels, lacquers and base coat/clear coat systems, people liked having the broader range of colours available with these other paints. Imron could be custom mixed to produce virtually any of the colours of the other paints, however, that involved us "creating" a recipe as we mixed the paints, incase of touch ups later on. It is alot more exact to create this "recipe" with a large batch of paint, and then scale it down, as it makes them more accurate. Which means that the recipes that came with a stock colour where much more acurate than ours. Knowing this, most people looked through the tens of thousands of paint chips in our books to find the perfect colour. That being said, the hundreds of colour chips available for Imron sure beats the at best dozens of colours available with marine paints.

I would say if you currently use and are happy with a marine paint, no need to change (unless there is a specific colour you want that is not available). If you are getting someone else to paint your boat, I would recommend having them paint it with whatever they are most comfortable with (provided of course it is a quality paint).

[feetup]

I have personally used the two part urethane products from dupont (Imron) , Endura, Sherwin Williams, R-M, Guertin Bros., Clovathane and maybe others, and I have found that Endura, if you can get it, is the easiest to spray of any paint I have ever used. It is a 1:1 mix, quite forgiving of minor deviations in mix ratio, temperature and humidity, and it hangs without run or sag like nothing else I have ever used. If you lay a light "tack coat" and when that becomes tacky blow on a full wet coat it flows out so nice you get a swelled head and start to think of yourself as a real painter. It cures with a high "distinction of image" which is a fancy way of saying how sharp and clear a reflection appears without minute distortions. It also flows for some time after initial cure allowing blending and buffing with products developed for the pupose. Once I was doing a two color job, as always in a rush and masked off the firtst color too soon after cure. When I pulled the tape after the second coat it left the surface with a kind of leather look from the adhesive on the tape. I knew I was going to have to polish it out (best case scenario) after leaving it to cure fully so went home tired and dissapointed. Next day there wasn't a trace of tape mark, it had flowed out completely!!
I painted a classic Jaguar in Endura once and it was sitting on jack stands in the driveway barely two days out of the booth when my teenage son ran a gas powered weed whacker along the rocker pannel for about 8 inches. The mark it left was the nylon of the line, and it literally flaked off with a fingernail leaving almost no mark. I'm sure it took a year from my life but the mark buffed out completely quite easily.
None of these products are formulated for brush or roll and tip application so awlgrip has them beat there.
One thing of great importance is the fact that these products all contain isocyanates which are VERY toxic and can set off a reaction much like severe asthma which will return if ever you come into contact with the fumes again, even in small amounts. These isocyanates can even be absorbed through the surface of the eye so a proper suplied fresh air mask is imperative!! There are lots of painters who's careers were ended this way.
I am not connected with Endura or to any paint manufacturer in any way, just observations. I havn't painted for a few years now, but I still am friends with a good truck painter which is why I began this thread. Actually the gel coat on my boat is buffing up beautifully so I won't need paint, I was just curious.
On the same topic but a bit different, most of the urethanes mentioned are available in a clear coat with powerful UV inhibitors that could be of interest for that British classic type of brightwork. It would be interesting to finish a couple of pieces, stick them in the Florida sun and see what happens.
Anyway, keep em shiney...

Feetup

[svMaja]

I used dalstar autmotive paint on a boat I sold last yr. shot it myself.. it turned out great.

High end automotive paint that is specific to fiberglass is as good or better than awlgrip.

I would reccomend keeping wax on the hull.

go for it. and it can be custom mixed as well.

[catamount]

Truck painters might not have considered boats as a potential market, but boat painters, even in Annapolis -- the so-called sailing capital of the US -- apparently have considered the opposite:

We can also paint any non-marine products that may require an extremely hard and long lasting topcoat such as airplanes, fleet vehicles, and outdoor furniture.

http://www.annapolisharbor.com/painting.htm

Must be something to do with the fickle nature of the boat market, boats being "luxury" items.

[Mark.Wilme]

Maybe its the other way round - getting a truck to a marina or boat works for painting is real easy - you drive it there. Getting a boat to a truck painters could be more difficult (or more expensive) depending on location

[JonnyBoats]

When I worked with DuPont in the early 1990s lots of sailors who worked for DuPont used Imron on their boats since it is a DuPont product. I never heard of any complaints.

[Dan H]

I?m wondering what the reasons are for not replacing the gelcoat on the topsides as opposed to painting. It seems to me the prep time and labor is the same. The materials are not that much different in overall cost.
If you have a boat that was damaged, the repairs are done with gelcoat, if it is a new enough boat.
I realize that gelcoat is not intended to be put on as a topcoat, but in major repairs, gelcoat is used to repair these large areas, so why not keep going and do all the topsides?
Aside from all the sanding and polishing after spraying, wouldn?t the gelcoat end up being a superior finish in the long run in terms of durability, longevity and reparability?

Minicraft of Florida is telling me that they have a new gelcoat out that is self-leveling and doesn?t need to be sanded after the final spraying. I don?t believe that for a second, but it probably needs minimal sanding before the hours of polishing begin.
There are also high gloss additives now available for gelcoat that improves the shine.
It just seems to me that after spending $700.00 for paint or gelcoat, wouldn?t gelcoat be the better finish in the end?

[Ceasar Choppy]

For damaged areas, gelcoat might make sense. But for doing the whole boat, especially an old one (read = classic plastic), I don't see a lot of difference or benefit.

Correct me if I am wrong but, if you are re-gelocating, you need to take the old gelcoat off. That is some serious work-- especially keeping the smooth shape on the curves. You certainly don't want to pile more gelcoat on since one of the problems with olders boats is that the gelcoat was on too thick to begin with which is why it is crazed so.

Epoxy paint (i.e. linear LPU) I think is a little more forgiving since you can paint it right on the existing gelcoat and over repairs. It is also somewhat elastic and is actually stronger than the original gelcoat-- although admittedly it is much thinner so maybe its a wash.

The paint I think is also a lot easier for most of us to work with ourselves and thus means a big difference in cost v. having a qualified yard do the work. I know if I had to spend $4-6K (which is what I was quoted for a yard to paint my boat) to get the boat re-painted (or re-gel coated) I never would have had it done since that was the total value of my boat at the time. Instead, I did myself for $1200.

Certainly an interesting option though and I'd like to be proved wrong...

[Tim]

I?m wondering what the reasons are for not replacing the gelcoat on the topsides as opposed to painting. It seems to me the prep time and labor is the same. The materials are not that much different in overall cost.
If you have a boat that was damaged, the repairs are done with gelcoat, if it is a new enough boat.
I realize that gelcoat is not intended to be put on as a topcoat, but in major repairs, gelcoat is used to repair these large areas, so why not keep going and do all the topsides?
Aside from all the sanding and polishing after spraying, wouldn?t the gelcoat end up being a superior finish in the long run in terms of durability, longevity and reparability?

Minicraft of Florida is telling me that they have a new gelcoat out that is self-leveling and doesn?t need to be sanded after the final spraying. I don?t believe that for a second, but it probably needs minimal sanding before the hours of polishing begin.
There are also high gloss additives now available for gelcoat that improves the shine.
It just seems to me that after spending $700.00 for paint or gelcoat, wouldn?t gelcoat be the better finish in the end?

Dan,

You might want to check out this thread. Some new posts at the bottom are dealing with exactly the products you've mentioned:

http://triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=220

I am reserving judgement on the Duratech/Minicraft process as I continue to learn more about it from Tynaje on this forum (in the thread noted above), since it's all new to me.

If comparing "regular" gelcoat to high quality LPU, I don't think there's really any comparison: LPU is harder, lasts longer, doesn't fade, and has superior intial shine and gloss as well as superior gloss and shine retention over time. They are extremely durable.

However, I cannot speak about the Duratech/Minicraft products, which are not the same as the typical gelcoat that comes on most production boats. I can say that despite the challenges involved, I am a big fan of LPU like Awlgrip/Alexseal and feel that they are outstanding products well worth the cost and challenge of application.

A disadvantage of LPU (Awlgrip in particular) is that it is harder to patch should it become damaged; Alexseal supposedly has addressed this shortcoming. I think a good LPU paint job looks and acts superior to standard gelcoat...but I must stress again that I cannot compare them to the Minicraft products, since I am not familar with them beyond what I've read on the referenced thread above. I have an open mind about them, though, and am trying to learn more.

In the end, the ultimate quality of the new finish is entirely dependent on the surface preparation, regardless of which method one chooses. So I question whether either choice would be easier or less labor-intensive to do well. One choice might suit one individual better than the other; someone else might feel differently.

[Ceasar Choppy]

OK. Maybe I can be convinced! I've heard good things about ths stuff but have not seen any of the particulars.

Interesting discussion. Might have even seen it if it was in its own topic! :)

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[Noah]

Very cool little boat! Make one 30ft and I'm in!