Where to mount a midships cleat?

s/v Faith · Post by **s/v Faith** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:21 pm

I asked this question on the Ariel forum also, but have not seen anyone there who has opted to mount a midships cleat. I like them, and have a pair of 10" bronze hershoff style cleats.

I have made some progress, the bow roller is mounted, as is the bow pulpit and stantions. I have the bow cleats centered between the mounting bases for the bow pulpit, about 2" in from the rail. (yes, I know... I will take some pictures... )

Now my question is where to mount the mid ships cleats?

I believe that the center of the Ariel falls right in between the portlights. That space is already taken by a stantion. I am thinking that I would rather have them slightly aft of that, as that is probably closer to the center of lateral resistance (where the balance point would be if you tried to drag the boat through the water sideways). A friend of mine made a pretty good argument for trying to figure out exactly where that point was and mountng them there....

I wonder if anyone has looked at this before, or knows a reason why they might be better placed somewhere other then just aft of midships>?
Thanks,

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:25 pm

I don't think it necessarily matters so much that the cleat be at the precise centerpoint of the boat's length. What's more important is ensuring a clear lead for lines leading both forward and aft off the cleat, assuming you want to use it for securing spring lines and so forth.

I don't see any problem with just aft of amidships, assuming you have a clear lead for your lines. That seems preferable to forward of amidships, based on the way most boats lie against a dock or pier.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:32 pm

I think it's in Bill Seifert's book "Offshore Sailing: 200 Passagemaking tips" where I saw a method for finding the best spot, balance-wise, to place the cleat. My copy is packed away right now, but it's an interesting book even if one is not going offshore.

Edited to say: Not that you necessarily need a "method" on a smaller boat.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:18 am

Does it have genoa tracks on the rail?

If so use these...then you can put them anywhere!!!

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 057&id=598

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:04 am

Ditto that a clear lead to the cleat is king. What is the most-intended purpose of the cleat? docking springlines? rafting to other boats?

I located my breast cleats just a tad aft of 'midship, at the point of maximum beam. This location was partially determined by my thought to have this cleat do double-duty as a turning point for the spinnaker guy.
The guy location part worked out well enough, but I think in terms of its use as a docking cleat, it could have been farther aft. It's handy to have a cleat (perhaps 1/6 boatlength) aft of 'midship so that, with a springline secured, the engine's thrust can be used to hold the boat to the dock.

I know all of my cleats are undersized (hush, Nathan!), but 10" seems like overkill for breast cleats on an Ariel.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:08 am

Figment wrote:10" seems like overkill for breast cleats on an Ariel.

Those can be real toe-busters on the sidedeck, too...especially the high and pointy Herreshoff designs.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:20 pm

Ditto the jenny track suggestion, but you don't need the cleat. If you have substantial turning blocks, preferably of the snatch variety, it's pretty easy to pop the sheet out and put your mooring line through to a winch and cleat. If you have a ring and snatch block then it's probably a bit small. I confess that we're normally on a mooring so a convenient midships cleat is not a priority.

And ditto the toe-contact issue! Fewer opportunities are better.

The usual bow and transom cleats and a midships piling works as well.

David VanDenburgh · Post by **David VanDenburgh** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:43 pm

You've gotten some great replies, so I'll just add my experience with installing midship cleats on our Cape Dory 36.

After ensuring that the cleats would have a fair lead fore and aft, and that it would be easy to get a line on them without doing gymnastics around standing rigging or a stanchion, I located ours just aft of maximum beam, far enough aft, I thought, to balance the boat well when using them for springlines and warping. Once put to use, however, it was apparent that the cleats were too far forward. Springing on them causes the boat to nose her bow into the dock. In retrospect, I wish I'd experimented with the placement to find a sweet spot, especially since the main reason I installed them was to make singlehanded docking simpler. As it was, I mounted them farther aft than most other CD36s out there.

The idea of using cleats on a track certainly takes the guesswork out of it, if that's an option. If not, I'd want to be certain that my placement is likely to bring the boat alongside a dock evenly - without sacrificing fair leads fore and aft (as others have said). Once again, it's about compromise.

David

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:39 pm

I think it's in Bill Seifert's book "Offshore Sailing: 200 Passagemaking tips" where I saw a method for finding the best spot, balance-wise, to place the cleat.

Yes, he deals with this in detail. With proper placement it is possible to power a boat into a dock while keeping it parallel to the face of the dock using only a spring line to the dock, even if there is a strong wind blowing you away from the dock.

Of course if your boat is so small that you can easily pull it in by hand, then this is not nearly as important as if your boat weighs so much that using your arms alone (without winches) is out of the question.

Bill also points out that the ideal place for a spring line when powering ahead may not be the same place as for backing down.

To find the best place for a spring line Bill suggests getting a line longer than your boat and making the ends fast to your bow and stern and running down the side with a loop in the middle. Now tie a spring line to the loop in the middle and take it to a dock. Using only the spring line (bow and stern lines slack or off) put the boat in forward gear. If the bow cants in towards the dock, the spring line needs to move aft and vice-versa. When the boat moves parallel to the dock you have found the correct placement for the aft spring line.

Now repeat the above procedure only with the boat in reverse this time. When you find the place where the boat moves parallel to the dock you have found the correct placement for the forward spring line.

Bill does a much better job of explaining it than my quick summary but perhaps this helps to jog your memory.

PS: I highly recommend this book.

s/v Faith · Post by **s/v Faith** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:17 pm

Tim wrote;

I don't think it necessarily matters so much that the cleat be at the precise centerpoint of the boat's length. What's more important is ensuring a clear lead for lines leading both forward and aft off the cleat, assuming you want to use it for securing spring lines and so forth.

Thanks Tim;

Yes, that is the intended purpose. I have a stantion right where the best place is to have a fair lead fore and aft. I will check the angles wherever I put it.

Ric Wrote;

Does it have genoa tracks on the rail?

No, it does not. I like the sliding cleats for their adjustability, but I don't think I would get the strength I am looking for. They are great for most applications though.

Figment Wrote;

Ditto that a clear lead to the cleat is king. What is the most-intended purpose of the cleat? docking springlines? rafting to other boats?

I located my breast cleats just a tad aft of 'midship, at the point of maximum beam. This location was partially determined by my thought to have this cleat do double-duty as a turning point for the spinnaker guy.
The guy location part worked out well enough, but I think in terms of its use as a docking cleat, it could have been farther aft. It's handy to have a cleat (perhaps 1/6 boatlength) aft of 'midship so that, with a springline secured, the engine's thrust can be used to hold the boat to the dock.

I know all of my cleats are undersized (hush, Nathan!), but 10" seems like overkill for breast cleats on an Ariel.

Yes, I know that the cleats are oversized. I am currently in Coastal NC, and the boat will live on the Gulf Coast soon. I have overbuilt all the docking / mooring gear thinking of hurricane preparations. I bought some 8" cleats (the first go-around, when I was going with stainless) but went for the 10" cleats because they take my 5/8" storm line much better.

I appreciate the recommendation to place them 1/6 boat length aft of midships. That might give me a fore and aft fairlead, also.

David wrote;

?.I mounted them farther aft than most other CD36s out there.

The idea of using cleats on a track certainly takes the guesswork out of it, if that's an option. If not, I'd want to be certain that my placement is likely to bring the boat alongside a dock evenly - without sacrificing fair leads fore and aft (as others have said). Once again, it's about compromise. [/quote]

I had not thought of this problem.. if they are too far outboard, they would indeed bring the bow in?. sounds like another vote for ~ 1/6 boatlenght aft of mid ships. Thanks.

JohnnyNBoats Wrote;

An account of how to find out if my placement will work as intended. I will mark out where I plan to put this and check it out with this method.

Great stuff folks!

Thank you all for your replies. This helps me very much.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:14 am

I guess I was in a hurry typing my last post in this thread, but I'll second the recommendation for Bill Seifert's book. Lots of good practical tips - and not only for an offshore passage-maker.

For example, he doesn't just say "The batteries should be secured"; he shows various methods for doing so. When he says that a midships cleat is useful, he goes on to explain how to find the proper mounting point. And he thinks of things that seem obvious once he points them out, such as the fact that all the folks with 6" stereo speakers in their cockpit "walls" essentially have two huge holes in their boat protected with.... paper. Then he suggests/shows how you could mount them inside a screw-in deck plate if you wanted to keep them there but not have potential 6" waterfalls into your boat.

Amazon even has it marked down to $18.45

http://tinyurl.com/2uf5xk

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:52 pm

Sold.

Rachel, you are getting as bad as Tim. :-P

-Britton

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:10 pm

bcooke wrote:Rachel, you are getting as bad as Tim. :-P

Oh sure. I cause you to buy an $18.45 book. You, on the other hand, have us all taking out reverse mortgages to get custom fabricated tanks. <folds arms>

R.

PS: I think you'll love the book. Just ignore the parts about 50' Aldens and gourmet cookery.

PPS: Years ago, I was invited to dinner with him and got a copy of the book then. Probably lucky for him I hadn't read it previously, as I'd have had a hard time not pestering him with questions. Now I have you-all ;)

Post by **Tim** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:14 pm

Rachel wrote:Just ignore the parts about...gourmet cookery.

Now, why on earth would anyone want to ignore stuff about good cooking? Cruising is all about food! :<) Britton's seen the good life, though whether he chooses to emulate it or not is another question!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:18 pm

You're right, Tim, that was bad advice. OTOH, when the author does his cooking on offshore voyages, he has an amazing collection of ingredients and cooking implements, and is usually in a galley the size of our boats. I just didn't want Britton getting discouraged, or ripping out the whole interior to make it all one big galley....

It's good reading though, and great inspiration.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:43 am

Okay, I thought someone was making a disparaging comment about my cooking.

Why, on the 'Bachelors' cruise I whipped up a ... ... ... actually, I think I just ate what the other guys made. (which was superb by the way) I did bring the whiskey though. And the port.

Oh, and I already DID rip out my galley in an effort to satisfy the gourmet chef that lies dormant within. Just wait until the next cruise. Fondue anyone?...

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:52 am

Oh yes, Britton did his share of eating. And drinking. I think he drank a handle of Mt. Gay himself. But I don't remember much in the way of cooking from the ol' brittster....

Post by **Tim** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:57 am

I'm looking forward to the fondue already!

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:11 am

Tim wrote:I'm looking forward to the fondue already!

Oh, yes! Britton, finish that danged boat already, will ya? We're hungry!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:17 pm

And if he brought good port, I think the rest could be excused.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:05 pm

I had made these flags last year but couldn't figure out how to post them. All the talk about fondue reminded me of their utility. Of course one would hoist the appropriate signal whilst at anchor.

Nathan would get a special manufacture's flag

r.

I suppose that one could tie the flag halyard to the midship cleat?
I am not that far off topic, am I?

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:28 pm

Oooh! I require a set of those! Being a cheese lover and a cheese maker, after all!

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:29 pm

Reading again, I see that you've already thought of me, Robert!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:16 pm

And if he brought good port, I think the rest could be excused.

I brought over the un-opened bottle of tawny port to a cheese tasting party on either Dasein or Glissando. My host was kind enough to offer me one glass but I am quite sure I didn't row home with the remaining bottle!

Does that mean I am excused?

-Britton

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:58 pm

Well certainly it would if my boat were named Glissando or Dasein ;)

Don't give up on the fondue thing though! It has lots of potential in an "I know this is so out it's in" kind of a way.

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:41 pm

bcooke wrote:
And if he brought good port, I think the rest could be excused.
I brought over the un-opened bottle of tawny port to a cheese tasting party on either Dasein or Glissando. My host was kind enough to offer me one glass but I am quite sure I didn't row home with the remaining bottle!

Does that mean I am excused?

-Britton

Oh, yes you are most assuredly excused! It was quite tasty!

Post by **Tim** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:20 am

Rachel wrote:Don't give up on the fondue thing though! It has lots of potential in an "I know this is so out it's in" kind of a way.

Good food never goes out of style.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:47 pm

Tim wrote:Good food never goes out of style.

And you can get all the necessary utensils and cookery items at a garage sale: Harvest Gold, Avocado Green, Poppy Red....

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Where to mount a midships cleat?

Where to mount a midships cleat?

Midship cleat

Thanks for all the great replies!