Pearson Ariel Keel

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:26 pm

Here are some of the photos from a recent visit to my "new" boat. They show the bulge in the keel that I need to address before splash down this summer. My initial idea as to the cause of the bulge was water migration through the bilge, then freezing. The bulge location is where the lead ballast is, so the expansion may have pushed against the lead and the fiberglass. The other side of the hull opposite this bulge shows no bulge at all. The perplexing thing however is that it is in a very localized area. Maybe it wasn't freezing water, but a blister? Maybe water that reached the laminate from the outside then froze? There will be some grinding in my future. Your ideas are very welcome. Tim

Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:48 pm

The only thing to do with that is start grinding and removing the shattered material. As you proceed, you'll likely get a better idea as to the cause of the bulge, and can address it accordingly.

Most likely, there was a construction, or latent, void in the keel, whether in the laminate or in the ballast cavity, which somehow absorbed water. This is not an altogther uncommon problem with internally-ballasted keels like this.

Fortunately, the repair should be straightforward, unless your demolition reveals additional issues.

Good luck, and please post some pictures of the process when you get going.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:07 pm

Fortunately, the repair should be straightforward, unless your demolition reveals additional issues.

Tim, give me a couple worst case scenarios to lose sleep over so that I can prepare myself.

Good luck, and please post some pictures of the process when you get going.

Pictures will be a big part of this project. I have a template made for a website that will document the whole restoration. It will be a nice way for me to stay organized and to keep things into perspective. I also look forward to documenting my future cruising adventures with my wife and son. The launch of this site will most likely be the middle of February around the time that the boat will be delivered to my house.

Tim

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:23 am

The most viable worst case would really be that the damage to the laminate extends far beyond the reasonable confines of the bulged area. This scenario would play out slowly and inexorably as you begin grinding, yet found trouble finding sound and solid laminate.

This would only happen if the original layup was extremely poor--that is, full of air or terribly dry and resin-starved. I don't believe this is likely based on history and what I can see in your photos, but it's always a possibility anytime you take a grinder to an old boat. As worst cases go, it's not a terrible one, and certainly not worth losing sleep over.

I expect you'll end up with a repair a foot or so in diameter, possibly larger depending on how far out you have to taper the repair. I'd plan on grinding off the bottom paint on the whole keel to aid in your overall inspection, though.

I feel the best way to approach these sorts of things is to just dig in and see what the exploration brings. Rather than worry about possibilities in advance, it's far easier, more efficient, and easier on the mind to just worry about what you actually have to do once you determine exactly what the real situation is.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:44 am

This happens on Renegades once in a while (encapsulated lead keel), although it manifests itself in different ways.

Here is how one owner solved the problem:
http://www.renegade27.org/keelrepair.htm

s/v Faith · Post by **s/v Faith** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:02 am

I have not personally had this issue, but other Ariels have.

There are voids on some boats, both forward and aft the ballast. The lower numbered boats seem more prone to the problem.

The voids normally fill with water over time, and I suspect the damage to your hull was a hard freeze, probably repeated a few times with each cycle pushing the bulge out a little farther.

There is some really good info on the Pearson Ariel Owners association, you will need to search for it as not all the threads are displayed in each forum as it has quite an archive.

I would not be too put off at this repair. You are going to find thick glass to fair into surrounding this area, and fixing this problem will give you the chance to fill the void with the poison of your choice. Others have not filled the void, and I know at least one boat has a garboard plug installed that is removed each time the boat is hauled.

Good luck, I have Ariel #226, and absolutely love it!

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:45 am

s/v Faith wrote:and I know at least one boat has a garboard plug installed that is removed each time the boat is hauled.

I installed one that I use every time I haul my Renegade and I have no keel problem at all. I like knowing my bilge is empty and going to stay that way all winter even if my cover leaks. At work our Travelift operator pulls the plug on all boats containing one and tapes it to the prop shaft to remind him to replace it next spring.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:54 am

Dave,

Is that a garboard drain to the bilge you are using or a garboard drain to a void area in the keel?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:30 pm

It is in the void area in the keel. All but the last 1/4" of water drains out. I guess calling it a garboard plug isn't very accurate. Never mind that I don't have a garboard, my plug isn't even located where it would be if I did ;)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:25 pm

I have what might be a silly question: When you install a garboard plug on a fiberglass boat, I assume you would usually put it on the side of the keel, but close to the lowest point in the sump, to avoid water collecting there (when you have the plug out, of course). If the plug unscrewed to the inside of the boat, like the "plug" in the transom of a dinghy or small skiff, you wouldn't be able to reach it, right? So does it unscrew toward the outside of the boat in this case? Or?

Post by **Tim** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:08 am

They are frequently installed on the exterior of the boat and unscrewed from the outside.

This is a common semi-flush type. A 1/2" ratchet fits in the square hole.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:32 am

Thanks, Tim. And you didn't even laugh! The silly thing is that I've ordered these many-a-time, and never thought about how they were being installed, specifically.

Of course I've ordered plenty of Atomic Four parts too, and we know how much that has helped me. <laugh>

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:16 pm

Mine is the very one Tim shows and it is installed from the outside.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:14 pm

Tim (Mertinooke),

I'm just wondering if you've gotten #24 home safely. Not that it's been great boatwork weather unless one has a shop, but still nice to have a "new" boat home in your yard I bet, if she is there already.

And what I'm really curious about is if you've started any work on the keel yet. My curiosity was piqued when you first posted these pics; but even moreso when I saw photos you had posted on the Ariel forum that made it look as thought the entire bilge (?) might have been filled up with "Great Stuff" type foam. The "boateologist" in my mind started thinking about that yesterday, and then just today Catamount posted about how someone used that type of foam to "re-core" part of his deck, and that made me wonder how you were getting on with your boat.

Rachel

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:47 pm

The boat is officially mine, but is still sitting 50 miles from my house at the PO's house waiting to be transported. We have had crazy weather over the past two weeks. Rain, sleet, snow, freezing rain, and now it is 10 below zero with wind gusts up to 45mph. Welcome to March, a month that can't make up its mind weatherwise. The coordination of the move is also complicated by the fact that my buddy is helping me move it with his new truck and he has been a bit busy lately. My original plan (keep in mind that naivete is my forte) was to have her moved to my house in February. After enjoying record heat and lack of precipitation in January this plan made too much sense to me. Once the boat was paid for and plans to transport were being forged, that's when winter arrived...The saga continues. My "new" plan is to have it here by next weekend.

Yeah the foam mystery continues. I have heard from many that pearson filled the infamous void found in the Ariel with an expanding foam that was poured in. Some have a bilge that has the same depth in the sump as mine but theirs is glassed over and smooth. Others that I have seen have a deep sump without any foam. I am either going to glass it over, dig it all out if possible, or do some sort of hybrid of that. Not sure which yet. The foam around the rudder tube is perplexing isn't it? I especially like the newspapers. Any ideas from the think tank?

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:09 pm

Here is the foam reference from Pearson that I mentioned. This was posted on the Ariel site a while back.

From: Evpearson
To: RPhelon
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:50:17 EDT
Subject: Re: KEEL VOIDS & WATER IN THE HULL'S FIBERGLASS LAMINATE

The Triton was molded in a one piece mold which made it extremely difficult to lay-up the section just forward of the rudder. Therefore, we made a separate piece which extended from the back end of the keel to a point below the propellor aperture. This piece was filled with urethane foam and bonded with epoxy to the bottom of the hull. Sometimes, when the boats were hauled they were set on timbers where the weight of the hull was borne by this aft section and not on the bottom of the lead keel. This caused some minor cracking and allowed some penetration of water. Some owners drilled a small hole in the forward part of this section to allow water to drain when hauled and prevent freezing. This section filled the area and provided a support for the bottom of the rudder. Otherwise, it is not a necessary part of the hull structure.

In the Ariel the heel was molded as part of the hull and foam was subsequently poured into the back of the hull to fill this deep narrow area. It was then glassed over to prevent water from getting at the foam and to allow for easier cleaning. If you think there is water down in the back of the keel, I would drill a hole at the bottom below the foamed area, drain it, reseal it, and then
redo the glass job on the interior over the foam.

Everett Pearson

Mine lacks the glass over the foam mentioned above, but she is #24 and I'm sure things were done differently throughout the 450 boat production run. A-24 obviously being at the beginning stages of that run probably has things that are a little more funky than in the later ones. I like funky so this relationship will work out fine. Bulges and foam aside I can't wait to work on and enjoy this beauty. My 4-year-old son has already layed claim to the V-berth much to my wife's chagrin.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:12 am

Tim Mertinooke wrote:I especially like the newspapers. Any ideas ...?

How meticulous was the PO? It almost looks like trash on the floor that was floated by water in the bilge, then simply left there to dry out? Yuck. It'll be nice to get all that foam and crud cleaned up!

Post by **Tim** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:17 pm

MikeD wrote:How meticulous was the PO?

Need you really ask?

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:59 pm

The newspaper is from April 16th 1976. I was two months old at that time. The PO has owned it since 1974 and has done decent maintenance which is more than many, but not enough by my standards. Fortunately she has been kept in decent enough shape that I have a solid structure to work with except for the bulging keel in one spot. I don't think that water floated trash up from the bilge, the rest of the boat doesn't indicate that. The equipment list is long as well, so once I get my pressing projects done it should be pretty straight forward to commision her this summer. It is loaded too with all the little stuff like charts of my cruising grounds, tools, pins, stainless hardware, etc. Once I get her to my house hopefully soon, I will be unveiling my website which will include a comprehensive list of everything that came with the boat including a Salem Gazette from 1976! By the way, there is some ice hanging off of the bulge in the keel so I think I know for sure now what caused it.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:31 pm

Ariel #24 made it home safe and sound over the weekend. The grinding of keel bulge will begin and hopefully end this weekend if the weather cooperates. Progress on this project and others can be tracked at www.ariel24.com which is still in its infancy so be patient. I'll post updates here as well because I'm sure I will be tapping some of you for your wisdom. Just don't expect Tim-like quality with the website, just tim-like. I'm going simple to start.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:43 pm

You need to paint the shutters red now.
I know, these side projects never end!

That name is one for The List for sure! Do you know its genesis?

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:57 am

Yeah, the yellow thing is accidentally becoming a theme.

Regarding the name, I only know that it is the original name given by the guy who purchased the boat from Pearson. Irish dude I gander. I am going to change it to "Archimedes" which I'm sure will irritate some traditionalists who feel the original name is the ONLY name, especially due to the fact that the boat is 45 years old.

I dug right into the bilge last night to remove the foam that Pearson so thoughtfully filled it with. Nasty job, but very rewarding to see it progress. THe lead pigs were removed for better access. The "Ariel Soup" in the bottom gets vacuumed and the remaining foam removed after work today. Not totally sure what the plan is once everything is removed and cleaned, but I have a few ideas brewing.

THere was some delamination of the first and in some local spots second layer of glass in the bilge. It was completely delaminated and easy to peel off as some of my photos show. It will be nice to let that space air out and prevent further delamination. I'm lucky they made them thick back then.

Before: Looking Aft

During

Post by **Tim** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:18 pm

Don't fret about that yellowish resinous stuff that's "delaminating". It's just a resin coating and/or runoff from incredibly soppy construction practices above--it's not structural material.

I've found plenty of it in all the old Pearson bilges I've dealt with, and, as in your case, it just peels right out. Get rid of it, but don't worry that your boat is coming apart.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:06 pm

Are those ballast pigs you're removing?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:07 pm

I believe I've read that the outboard powered Ariels sometimes had additional ballast pigs, so perhaps that's what is being removed.

We need more information, Tim! (She says, needing to make a similar post...)

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:59 pm

"Are those ballast pigs you're removing?"

Yup.

"I believe I've read that the outboard powered Ariels sometimes had additional ballast pigs, so perhaps that's what is being removed."

Yup.

"We need more information, Tim!"

The pigs are being removed so that the bottom of the bilge can be prepped and epoxied. I hope that this will prevent water from coming in through the rudder shoe into the bilge, and will also prevent any water that ends up in the bilge from migrating to the voids between the lead ballast and the hull. The keel bulge I'm attacking this weekend is evidence of what can happen if water gets in there in this climate. I would like a smooth bilge that is completely exposed so that I don't have hidden areas to worry about. I'm not sure if I'll be putting those pigs back in or not. I'll probably leave them out and sail without them this summer and see if she is too lively or not. Those that race Ariels from what I understand usually take them out, but do say the boat is more lively. We'll see. I'm just glad I got all of that junk out of the keel void so that I can create a real bilge with an accesible low spot. Novel idea, eh?

Looking down through the access opening where the lead ballast ends (on the right.) Water would seep in immediately after I vacuumed it dry. I think this was a two way street and that's how the water ended up between the ballast and the hull where it expanded.

Looking at the back of the bilge at the lowest spot where the rudder shoe is located.

My new bilge. My plan is to fill with epoxy until it is level with the end of the lead ballast which will provide a smooth slope and will stop the water in the bilge from migrating.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:04 pm

Roughly how much weight are we looking at?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:12 pm

My plan is to fill with epoxy until it is level

Hehe, of course you know that you need to do that a little bit at a time :-)

I know of a boat that caught fire when the owner simply dumped a big slug of epoxy into the bilge without thinking about the exothermic reaction.

and No, it wasn't me either.

-Britton

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:18 pm

Off the top of my head I'm not sure how much they weigh each. They are very heavy, but I was able to lift them out one at a time with the arm I was able to squeek through the opening (not showing off, just stating facts.) I'll measure them tonight to figure out their weights. I've seen displacement figures for the Ariel ranging from 5100 to 5800 pounds. My guess is they might make some difference to help ease the motion of the boat in rougher seas, but Ariels, like my Typhoon, tend to squat in the stern so maybe this will help her sit better on her lines.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:26 pm

"Hehe, of course you know that you need to do that a little bit at a time :-) "

I do. My first experience with epoxy was when I was running the sailing school at the American Yacht Club in Newburyport back in 1997. They used Precision 16's then and two boats "crossed the T". The kids in both boats got a quick lesson in physics and I got a date with West System and a grinder. The resultant hole was my first time. Ahhh, you never forget your first time...

Al · Post by Al » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:27 am

Pearson put the lead pigs in Ariels and Commanders without inboard engines to equalize the weight between inboard and outboard versions.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:57 pm

Tim,

If I ever get my photos posted (tonight or tomorrow night, promise - I have limited evening Internet access now, hence the delay) you'll see that I'm battling something similar now. My boat was originally constructed with - among other things - a resin "pour" sealing off the ballast and parts of the bilge. This resin is prone to cracking, after which you're back to the original problem (please anyone correct me if I'm wrong on this). I believe you would need to reinforce the resin somewhat if you're expecting it to do any long-term sealing.

Rachel

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:12 pm

I agree about reinforcing the resin. I was thinking of adding chopped strands of glass to make the "whole" stronger once cured. I am also thinking about putting a limited amount of resin there, maybe an inch or two just to seal the area off then build the back and front of the bilge up with thickened epoxy so that it is seamless with the lead ballast. THis would create a nice smooth bottom. This would also make an epoxy barrier between the rudder shoe area and back of the lead ballast where water has been known to migrate. If I prep the area well and the epoxy adheres to the laminate, then it may strengthen a relatively week spot in the hull even just a little. I don't want to lose all of that space down there, just create a nice smooth, painted bilge that is easy to maintain and holds lots of beer. For now the area is drying and I'll be moving to my next project this weekend which will be to start grinding the keel bulge. I'll mull over options about what to do and listen carefully to ideas while I wait.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:40 pm

If I correctly understand your intent, you're talking about a significant amount of epoxy fill. I'm not sure I'd go that route.

Boatbuilders use chunks of foam for a reason. I know a bunch of people are wrestling with nasty rotten foam issues right now, but that doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:57 pm

FWIW, resin filled with chopped strand (at least any amount that has a hope of reinforcing the resin) never approaches anything that we might call "smooth". I'm not sure you'd be happy if you tried spreading that out in the depths of your bilge; you might end up worse off than the existing situation.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:35 pm

I would probably lay some cloth in there - a lightweight cloth. It will be smoother than chop, and will paint well.

Just my 2 cents.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:02 am

I appreciate the advice. My main goal is to make sure the rudder shoe area and back of the lead ballast are sealed off allowing no water in or out of my new bilge.

At some point I would like to remove the rudder shoe, grind, then coat the terminal end of the keel with epoxy including the existing holes where the pins are holding the shoe in place. Then rebed the shoe with 5200. This method has been tried by other Ariel owners with success. This will prevent water from entering the void in question through the rudder shoe making it unecessary to fill the terminal point of the keel from the inside.

I really do appreciate the advice. I posted this because I was not sure of the best course of action. An idea can always seem good on paper, but until others with experince chime in, one will never know the outcome until it is too late. For that I thank you guys (and gal.) For now I'll leave it as it is.

What could I do then to prevent water from migrating between the bilge and the area between the lead ballast and hull? The leaking area is to the right of the picture below.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:04 pm

I ground out the bulge in my keel today to find a very bizzare thing. It was lead that pushed the fiberglass out and cracked it not water between the lead and fiberglass. Something either inside the lead ballast or on the other side pushed a section of the ballast out. Right now I have a hole that I ground out with a section of lead sticking out of it. It looks like a 3D puzzle piece that can be slid in and out not just a bulge in the lead. Something clearly pushed it out either from the inside or from the other side. It may have been a weak point in the casting that expanding water exploited. You have to see it to believe it and of course my luck kicked in because I forgot to bring home from work the cable that connects the camera to the PC. I took lots of pictures and you wil be inundated with them as soon as I can upload them. I may just run out to the store tomorrow to get a second cable just to post the pictures. I have never seen or heard of anything like this happening and can't wait until you guys see it so I can figure out what happened.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:44 am

What probably happened is that water got inside the ballast cavity--a common enough occurrence with that sort of construction--and then, during a freezing cycle, expanded enough to displace some of the lead.

Pearson used a variety of smaller lead pieces to fill the internally-ballasted keels of the day, not a full cast pig, so while what you're describing is rare, it's understandable given the configuration of the boat you have. The various pieces of lead tend tl leave many voids surrounding them, which can hold water if water is allowed in. To my way of thinking, there's plenty of room for water to collect and then expand enough to move the sort of lead that is found in those keels.

What you've found actually helps make the bulge make a lot more sense, since it clearly took some substantial force to create it--something like a dense mass of lead. The power of water in all its forms is continually amazing.

I look forward to seeing the pictures when you get a chance!

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:48 pm

Here are the pictures I mentioned in the last post, my apologies for those with dial-up.

The last two pictures in the series shows the beginning effort to remove the lead safely. I can't grind it off for obvious reasons, and the drill bit I used produced too many shavings to deal with. The method that worked the best was a chisel and a hammer. The chunks come off larger and there is no associated dust so it will all be contained properly. The small section that is chiseled off took about 15 minutes so it should take about an hour of so to have it flush with the rest of the lead ballast.

Tim, the scenario you described was my guess too after talking with a couple people. Getting it so that there can be no water in that void is one of my goals as stated earlier, but I understand it may be a futile battle. Once the lead gets removed so that it is flush, the layup will begin. Hopefully next weekend weather permitting.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:15 am

That sure is an interesting situation.

What is the other material surrounding the lead? Some resinous mass in between the pieces, or something else?

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:48 am

The piece between the hull and lead ballast you were refering to is a folded over piece of saturated roving. It looks to be a shim of some sort as it didn't delam off of the existing layers from the hull.

I'm done chiseling out the lead so that it is flush with the piece it migrated out of. After looking at the pictures does anyone have any advice as to what should be done to the lead to prevent that from happening in the future, or should I just leave it alone and finish the repair as planned? In a perfect world the area would stay dry making this point irrelevent.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:35 am

Assuming that you stop the avenue for water ingress into any part of the ballast cavvity, you won't experience this problem again. So I'd concentrate on ensuring that the area is watertight, and repair the exterior hole as you have planned.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:25 pm

This was what it looked like after I chiselled out the lead.

I decided to follow Don Casey's advice on repairing a hole like this by creating a thin patch of cured laminate slightly larger than the hole. This gets flexed and manipulated into position inside the hull after the edges are smothered with thickened epoxy. The screws then hold the piece up tight against the hull with attched wire.

This picture shows me holding the cured piece up to the hole to show the overlap.

This is showing what it looked like immediately after flexing the piece into position inside the hull. The copper wire was already attached so that I could pull it tight right away.

With the middle wire secured, the disk stayed in place and I continued to add the other four wires.

Once the epoxy had set I removed the screws and wires.

Then I coated the disk with a thin layer of thickened epoxy.

Tomorrow I'll remove the amine blush then sand the area smooth and begin laminating.

kabauze · Post by **kabauze** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:16 pm

Wow, that is exceptionally clean work! Nice job. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the repair. What layup schedule do you plan to use?

Todd

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:26 pm

West system and approximately 16 layers of cloth. Does anyone know how many layers of saturated cloth can be put on at one time with out generating too much heat. I understand air temperature has a lot to do with it and tomorrow it's supposed to be around 65 degrees where I am. I read recently that someone has layed up seven layers at one time without any ill-effects? Can I do more? Should I do less?

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:45 am

It's not about layers, per se...it's about the actual thickness, or mass. And ambient temperature certainly has an effect. You can do more in cold weather than in hot.

In general, in an area like that, you should be able to effectively laminate a 1/8-3/16" total thickness in one application. I wouldn't think twice about installing three layers of 17 oz. biax at once, for example. It's better to err on the side of too few layers than too many, however. If the laminate overheats during the exothermic curing reaction, you lose much of its potential strength.

What is the fiberglass material being used? It must be awfully lightweight to require 16 layers. There's only 3 layers of roving to be seen in your ground-out area. Strength-wise, with modern materials, you only need a few layers of something like 17 oz. biax with mat backing to equal or exceed the strength of the super resin-rich original laminate schedule.

You may need more material simply to make up the thickness in that area, however, and therefore reduce the reliance on fairing compound. So use your judgement. One thing that the photos can't show adequately is the depth of your hole there.

Remember that, although it seems counterintuitive, in a repair like yours the largest round of fiberglass goes in first, followed by the smaller concentric ones. This way, the largest piece retains the highest amount of contact with the surrounding hull and doesn't get ground away during fairing. This applies to any repair where the end result will be ground and faired flush; tabbing and interior structural repairs should be installed with the smallest piece first, and the larger ones afterwards.

Good luck. The work looks nice so far!

(That's kind of a funny picture with all the wires...I was sort of expecting the next one in the sequence to show thunder and lightning, and the roar: "IT'S ALIVE..."

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:44 am

My orginal idea was to alternate between mat and roving to build it up, then finish with a lightweight cloth as I had done in past projects where polyester resin was used. So I bought the materials to begin the project. After doing some belated research it seems that roving and mat are arcane materials when used in conjunction (little strength compared to other materials and configurations.) Biax sewn to mat seems to be the preferred material in terms of ease of use and strength. Hindsight is 20/20 and unfortunately I didn't have time to order the biax as this is my week off to do this project. I decided to move ahead with the materials at hand so I'm using 3 oz cloth which is light, I know, but I have read a published source saying that the use of cloth alone is ok when using epoxy as long as the layers are well saturated and layed up in the correct time frame. In the end I feel as though the repair will be adequite, certainly stronger than the original layup that was there pre-bulge. Of course I appreciate criticism and ideas so let em' fly. There are areas of boating where I feel I am truly a Jedi Master, but when it comes to fiberglassing, although I do have experience, I am still just a Padawan. Criticism and advice are always welcome and appreciated.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:11 am

Your repair will certainly be adequate--and more so. But using something delicate like 3 oz. cloth just makes a whole lot more work than required. 3 oz. cloth is a sheathing material, and is gossamer-like. At least this explains your need for 16 layers!

But this is how we all learn. As long as the work and concept are sound, there's no harm in learning through this sort of method. Your proposed repair will be fine, if not necessarily the "best" way to do it.

Do your best to minimize the amount of resin that ends up in your laminate. With so many layers, you run the risk of the end result being heavy on the resin.

Mat and roving is indeed a pretty anachronistic means of construction and tends to lend itself to heavy, resin-rich laminates--but it's still effective enough for all that. It's strong, but not as "efficient", if you will, as more modern means.

And while many chopped strand mats are OK for use with epoxy, they are not ideal in any case. Since mat is a required element when using old fashioned roving, the whole system just isn't really ideal today when making repairs with epoxy resin.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:31 am

Tim wrote:gossamer-like.

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