The Devil Made Me Do It: ANOTHER Head Thread

[dasein668]

Well, Heather finally decided that she couldn't stand the stinky, leaky, creaky toilet, and authorized the purchase of a Lavac. I figured since I was going to switch out the toilet, I should deal with the holding tank issue as well. Tim suggested that I take a look at the tank that came out of Kaholee, and after an email exchange with Allen, and a personal viewing, I decided to go ahead with it.

Here's the tank location. It takes up a ton of potential storage space (which is the main reason Allen removed it) but then again it's actually large enough to be somewhat useful. Rough calculations put the tank at something near 40 gallons. It seems very well constructed, and even has a baffle.


We all know about the variations in construction from Triton to Triton. I was definitely worried about that, but obviously the only way to know for sure was to try to install it. It's juuuuuuust a little too tall, but I think it will be OK.


I'm now trying to collect all of the parts necessary for the plumbing. Of course, no one in Portland had diverters in stock... So those are on order. I've picked up most of the necessary PVC for the installation, but I'm still having trouble locating the slip-socket-to-hose-barb fittings. I'm going to try our local wholesaler today and see if they'll sell to me or not. If I can't locate them soon, I'll probably revert to all-hose.

After much hemming and hawing I've finally decided to eschew simplicity and go for a system allowing all possible discharge options as outlined in installation number 3 here: Lavac Installation Notes.

I've sketched out a rough plumbing layout, which will be on the aft bulkhead in the head. The fact that the pump has to be above the level of the bowl slightly complicates the system. Hopefully it will be neatly enough installed that it won't be horrible to have it all out in the open.



The position of the inlet and outlet ports on the tank further complicates things as I need to find a way to cross the plumbing at the bottom. If the ports were reversed, things would lead very neatly down to the correct sides.

That's where we stand right now. I'm waiting for delivery of some parts, and scrounging for others. More as warrented.

Comments and criticisms welcome.

[Figment]

Dude are you nuts? ;)

Your sailing season isn't short enough? You're compelled to cut the boat apart when you could be out sailing? nuts!

(don't mind me, I'm just feeling like a slacker because I haven't advanced any of my ongoing projects AT ALL in the last six weeks)

My regard for the underseat areas as stowage diminishes the more I use the boat. It's no good for anything bulky, and for the rest it's just damned inconvenient. Maybe I just need to do away with those silly drawers. Anyway, it seems like a fine place for some tankage.

As I recall, I couldn't find slip-to-barb fittings either. Slip-to-thread mated to thread-to-hose (sprinkler system fitting) was the best I could do.

I don't mind the look of my henderson pump on the aft bulkhead at all. I do think you're going to be a little tight on real estate there, though, unless that outboard branch to the pumpout and the discharge happens behind the outboard bulkhead. The pump also stands proud of the surface by a fair amount, so I'd try to get it as high as possible, preferably above shoulder height while seated.

[dasein668]

Shouldn't take up more than a couple days of actual work. No big. And don't forget, Mike: I'll be getting plenty of sailing during my 3.5 week cruise... ;-P

I found thread-to-barb, but I felt like the slip-to-thread plus thread-to-barb introduced an awful lot of constriction into the system, you know?

The slip to barbs are available online froma plumbing supplier, but I really don't want to pay their express delivery charge so I want to find them locally if possible.

The discharge branch isn't intended to be in the locker?that is, the o/b leg down is on the bulkhead, while the deckfitting leads back into the locker off of the tee-fitting.

[Tim]

Maybe I just need to do away with those silly drawers.

You still have those ridiculous things? Get thee to a sabre saw and open up the top of the settee for some real access and space. You can fit a huge amount in there. It's moderately inconvenient to raise the cushion for access, but that's not really too terrible a price to pay.

Cut the back of the drawers off and use the front to cover the opening permanently, assuming your drawer fronts are decent at all.

http://www.triton381.com/sailing/cruising/storage.htm

I really don't want to pay their express delivery charge so I want to find them locally if possible.

By the time you run around and waste time--whether or not you find them--you'll wish you'd just paid the delivery charge and been done with it. Some savings aren't worth the effort.

[Ceasar Choppy]

After having done this twice (the first time with a Lavac) my first reaction is, you should put the tank fittings at the top of the tank. 40 gals is ALOT of crap.... surely you could sacrafice some of that room to get a tank with the fittings on top. Otherwise the effluent will sit in the hoses and will stink no matter how good your hoses are-- unless maybe you use PVC. Of course then you are faced with a new tank then... But for that space, I can't see it costing THAT much.

Re the fittings: One of the things I used on my last install were the Sealand slip fittings. They are a little pricey, but they are PVC and you can get readily available PVC adaptors that you can glue them in to. Very good for hard bends (you want the big PVC sweeps) and tank attachments etc.

These are the fittings... you will have to scroll down (no endorsement of this site intended, etc.) :
http://www.seacoastservices.com/hose_fittings.htm


Dave Finnegan should chime in here... he's had some experience in the area...

[dasein668]

I really don't want to pay their express delivery charge so I want to find them locally if possible.

By the time you run around and waste time--whether or not you find them--you'll wish you'd just paid the delivery charge and been done with it. Some savings aren't worth the effort.

$25 for the fittings and $35 for the shipping? No, I can't afford that right now.

[dasein668]

After having done this twice (the first time with a Lavac) my first reaction is, you should put the tank fittings at the top of the tank. 40 gals is ALOT of crap.... surely you could sacrafice some of that room to get a tank with the fittings on top. Otherwise the effluent will sit in the hoses and will stink no matter how good your hoses are-- unless maybe you use PVC.

Well, at this point I'm NOT going to build a tank from scratch. Yeah, in a perfect world I'd have the fittings on top, but to be blunt, I don't expect to have anything close to 40 gallons of effluent in that tank, so for the price and time savings, I'll stick with this one for now.

Given the amount of junk that sticks to the inside of those hoses anyway, I'm not sold on the fact that it makes a huge difference. Eeeeeew. ;-)

[dasein668]

Let yer fingers do the walkin'

Portland Plastic Pipe has 'em in stock. No problem. Should've just called them in the first place.

[MikeD]

... I'll be getting plenty of sailing during my 3.5 week cruise... ;-P

Now if THAT doesn't make one envious! It's good to be "the man", hmmm? You get to set your own vacation time.

[dasein668]

Portland Plastic Pipe was full of cigarette smoke with "Sweet Caroline" playing on the radio, but they had the goods. Now I just need my diverters. ::twiddles thumbs::

[dasein668]

... I'll be getting plenty of sailing during my 3.5 week cruise... ;-P

Now if THAT doesn't make one envious! It's good to be "the man", hmmm? You get to set your own vacation time.

Good for setting vacations. But taking a month off isn't great for the bank account, so there's a downside, too!

[Tim]

I really don't want to pay their express delivery charge so I want to find them locally if possible.

By the time you run around and waste time--whether or not you find them--you'll wish you'd just paid the delivery charge and been done with it. Some savings aren't worth the effort.

$25 for the fittings and $35 for the shipping? No, I can't afford that right now.

OK, that's a little extreme!

[dasein668]

Yeah, it was either ground or overnight... That's OK. It's a non-issue now.

If you ever need anything plumbing-related, call PPP. They pride themselves on stocking every known PVC fitting, or so said the guy who helped me out.

[dasein668]

Got a couple hours of work in on the project today. I'm still waiting for my diverter valves from Defender. (Can someone explain how I placed an order with Second Day Air shipping on Thursday and the UPS expected delivery date is Tuesday?) Anyway...

Installed some cleats for the tank. I'll be installing straps over the tank to hold it in place. Simple. Maple. It's what I had on hand.


I did some more planning on board with the pump and most of my plumbing fittings on hand. Mike, you were right, there wasn't enough room on the bulkhead for the runs the way I had originally conceived of them, plus I neglected to consider the need to actually USE the pump! I reworked the plan (sorry no sketch pic on hand) so that all of the plumbing will run down on the same side. I'm pretty sure it will work OK. I'll know better of course once Defender gets me my diverters.

Meantime I did set up the loop and vent for the Lavac intake.


I also was able to cut, fit, and assemble the branch run to the deck pumpout fitting.

Here's an overview, roughed in but not glued up.


Detail, after final installation.


And the attachment to the deck fitting.

[Rachel]

Tangent: The "beadboard" plywood looks really nice. Is that the same stuff Tim used on the daysailor? I seem to remember a recommendation for spending a bit more for a slightly nicer type - is that what you have? I could see having some of that aboard myself.

On topic: I like the way you've used rigid pipe for most of it.

Rachel

[bcooke]

For future reference, I have used www.plumbingsupply.com several times and have been pretty happy with them. If I had checked in yesterday I could have offered you a couple of slip-to-barb connectors. I have a bunch of them in a box around here somewhere.

I was going to give you a hard time for taking the 'easy' route and putting all of your plumbing on the wall instead of behind the cabinet but I am really warming up to your installation. When I put my plumbing behind the panel I had to get creative and puts lots of bends in the plumbing so I wasn't able to use the PVC as much as I had hoped. Your way allows for simple straight plumbing runs that look very unobtrusive. I like it.

Can someone explain how I placed an order with Second Day Air shipping on Thursday and the UPS expected delivery date is Tuesday?

Probably because UPS considers Maine to be a 'rural' area and beyond their guaranteed delivery area. Everything north of Massachusetts is the boondocks to some people :-)

Too bad about losing all that storage area under the settee but I seem to remember Heather being very much against a tank under the V-berth and a tank-behind-the-toilet is never going to be big enough for family cruising so I think you chose the best option available.

-Britton

[dasein668]

I was going to give you a hard time for taking the 'easy' route and putting all of your plumbing on the wall instead of behind the cabinet but I am really warming up to your installation. When I put my plumbing behind the panel I had to get creative and puts lots of bends in the plumbing so I wasn't able to use the PVC as much as I had hoped. Your way allows for simple straight plumbing runs that look very unobtrusive. I like it.

Well, I am putting some of the plumbing back there. Noteably: the deck pump out, vent, and potable water fill. But in general, yeah, I figured keeping it out and neat would be better in the long run than trying to fit too much in the very small space behind (outboard) the head.

Can someone explain how I placed an order with Second Day Air shipping on Thursday and the UPS expected delivery date is Tuesday?

Probably because UPS considers Maine to be a 'rural' area and beyond their guaranteed delivery area. Everything north of Massachusetts is the boondocks to some people :-)

They oughtn't take my money for second day shipment, then, should they? If they are only going to give me ground service, they should only charge me for ground service.

[dasein668]

Tangent: The "beadboard" plywood looks really nice. Is that the same stuff Tim used on the daysailor? I seem to remember a recommendation for spending a bit more for a slightly nicer type - is that what you have?

No, I just used the "cheap" fir stuff, rather than birch. I installed that several years ago, before Tim did the daysailor. The stuff definitely isn't as nice as the birch, but it cleaned up OK. It's pretty low-quality material though. I will probably spring for the birch ply in the future.

[Tim]

To spur on the tangent just a bit longer...

Tangent: The "beadboard" plywood looks really nice. Is that the same stuff Tim used on the daysailor? I seem to remember a recommendation for spending a bit more for a slightly nicer type - is that what you have?

No, I just used the "cheap" fir stuff, rather than birch. I installed that several years ago, before Tim did the daysailor. The stuff definitely isn't as nice as the birch, but it cleaned up OK. It's pretty low-quality material though. I will probably spring for the birch ply in the future.

I'll just chime in briefly on the beadboard. The fir stuff is OK, but it takes a lot of prep to smooth it and eventually hide the heavy, rough grain. A thorough sanding, followed by primer, followed by a smooth and fine sanding, followed by 3 coats of paint (sanding between coats) was pretty effective, but starting with a finer-grained material like birch would substantially save on prep time, as well as provide a superior finish that would hold up better in the long run.

Plus, the substrate of the fir beadboard is simple junk; it was embarrasing to use such lousy material even for purely cosmetic purposes, just knowing that the underlying plies were so cheesy.

I would not use the fir product again. Maybe I'd spring for the birch, but just as likely I'd mill my own out of solid material, which in a confined space is ultimately easier and more accurate to work with than sheet goods.

End of tangent.

[Tim]

Everything north of Massachusetts is the boondocks to some people :-)

Hopefully, we can keep it that way! You southern guys can have all the traffic, pollution, and stress; we don't want it here anyway. (Yet it inexorably seeps further north and east every year...rats.)

Nathan, I like the clean look of the plumbing runs so far: unobtrusive and better looking than all hose. And I'm glad to see that purple PVC primer on the connections.

For my next boat, the head and plumbing installation will not be an afterthought, but will be conceived and installed fairly early in the process. This is all giving me ideas for a nicer installation.

[dasein668]

Nathan, I like the clean look of the plumbing runs so far: unobtrusive and better looking than all hose.

I'm pretty happy with the look so far. I hope I can keep it nice and neat when I get to the rat's nest with two diverters, a tee-fitting, and pump... Keep your fingers crossed!

And I'm glad to see that purple PVC primer on the connections.

People glue PVC without primer?

[Tim]

And I'm glad to see that purple PVC primer on the connections.

People glue PVC without primer?

Some people will cut any corner they can.

But in any event, the purple primer makes it obvious that primer was used. (There's a clear primer too, but you can't prove it was used.)

[Hirilondë]

On topic: I like the way you've used rigid pipe for most of it.

I'm convinced that the major source of head smells comes from the hose connections. At least for modern installations which use the white PVC sanitation hose. Even if there is no evidence of leaks any seepage at all smells. Properly glued hard PVC is forever, or at least until you see fit to reconfigure.

But in any event, the purple primer makes it obvious that primer was used.

Purple solvent/cleaner/primer is required by building inspectors in residential construction as proof of proper assembly . I like the clear for boats, especially where the plumbing is exposed.

[dasein668]

Well, the space available for the install was really just too small for my system, and hose might actually have been a neater installation. Oh well. I'm not tearing it out now!

It turned out OK, though. It looks better in person some how than it does in the pictures, which is sort of unusual, but there you go!

Here's the overview of the plumbing. The diverter valve that is missing a hose is the intake from the toilet.



Getting the tank hooked up was a treat. But its done.



I did get the toilet installed as well, but no pics of that yet since I scalded myself trying to boil the end of the stupid 3/4 inch hose which simply will not go over either the hose barb on the toilet or the seacock.

All that's left is to actually hook up the intake lines and run the vent line.

[Tim]

That looks good, but there's something wrong with things when something as straightforward as flushing a toilet requires that much plumbing!

...the stupid 3/4 inch hose which simply will not go over either the hose barb on the toilet or the seacock.

Interesting. I don't recall the 3/4" hose being any trouble whatsoever. In fact, I easily pull the hose off the seacock barb each fall so that I can winterize the head, and I've had it off the toilet itself a couple times over the years.

Each situation is different; that's the one constant, I guess!

On a related note: Has anyone used the super-duper-mega-premium sanitation hose? (At $21/ft for 1.5", I doubt anyone's used it.)

I wonder how it compares, in terms of workability, with the regular white stuff? The writeup says that it "can be slipped easily over most fittings".

Link: Poly X Sanitation Hose

[dasein668]

Yeah, I saw that stuff. 22 bucks a foot seems a little steep for ANY hose in my estimation. But if money were no object, I'd probably give it a try. It seems like nice stuff.

I wonder how you make a warrenty claim on that stuff? Box up the offensive piece of hose and ship it back so that they can take a sniff?

[Rachel]

End of tangent.

I'm sorry - I'm trying to let the beadboard tangent I started die, but I just need to slip in one more little question:

I would not use the fir product again. Maybe I'd spring for the birch, but just as likely I'd mill my own out of solid material, which in a confined space is ultimately easier and more accurate to work with than sheet goods.

Tim, I just want to ask what you mean when you say you'd mill your own. I would have thought you meant to route your own grooves in some good-quality plywood, but then you mention "easier... to work with than sheet goods." Do you mean that you'd mill your own staves out of solid wood? I'm curious as to how thin one can practically make that sort of thing, say, if one were to face an existing bulkhead with it, or to use it over plywood when the structural qualities of an underlying layer of ply were desired.

Thanks,

Rachel

[Tim]

Do you mean that you'd mill your own staves out of solid wood? I'm curious as to how thin one can practically make that sort of thing, say, if one were to face an existing bulkhead with it, or to use it over plywood when the structural qualities of an underlying layer of ply were desired.

Yes--solid wood is what I meant.

Practically speaking, the depth of the surface beading or other detail would dictate how thin the material could be. For the sort of bead found on the standard beadboard, I'd say offhand you'd need about 3/8" stock, minimum.

The advantage of solid wood might be that it'd be easier to cut and fit pieces with fine tolerances in the close confines of the boat interior, as well as the ability to mill any profile you wanted, rather than being tied to the standard bead. There are profile/beading heads available that offer a variety of profiles.

This is all conjecture at this point, of course.

[Rachel]

Thanks for the additional info, Tim.

This is all conjecture at this point, of course.

Sure, but that's half the fun of boats. Sitting around "conjecturing" ... when you're not sailing or working on them :-)

Rachel

[dasein668]

Ok, I got the stupid intake hoses on. Boiling water, dishsoap, and some mild cursing. The system seems to work well overall. I need to mess around with the size of the vent hole in the intake to reach a happy medium between aggressive flushing and a reasonable amount of water left in the bowl when finished, but otherwise I'm pleased with the installation.

Some final pics.

The toilet and connections.


The aft bulkhead, with some plumbing hidden by hats!


Forward bulkhead.

[Tim]

One of the great features of the Lavac is how simple and tidy the bowl itself is: no pump, no big bulky base, nothing. It makes a small area seem larger.

Congratulations on a job dun.

[Tim Mertinooke]

Nathan, I am looking to possibly replace my toilet onboard (if rebuilding is not an option), and if I do I may dive in and replace the whole system with a Lavac setup. Any continued thoughts after having finished and tested your setup last summer?