More VArnish Problems but with Satin this time

[Dan H]

I am having trouble getting even the most basic finish with Satin Varnish. I've tried Interlux Goldspar Satin and Epifanes satin. Both products leave brush marks. I don't mean a little brush marks; it looks like I applied it with a hairbrush or a rake. Tipping it off, even after 1 minute leaves the finish very streaky, almost pulling the varnish and dragging it. The results are terrible no matter what.
I got the best results yesterday when I applied it in the shop at 90 deg. It leveled the best, but there is still brush marks.
I'm using my badger bristle brushes.
This varnish looks like pancake syrup. It's thick like pancake syrup also. Both cans. I've tried thinning it from a little thinner to 50% and the results are the same.
Is this stuff supposed to be this thick?
I just finished a large oak cabinet using Minwax satin and their product is thin like the gloss varnish.
Could I have possibly gotten two bad cans of satin varnish?

[LazyGuy]

Yes, I am fairly new here but I have learned quite a bit about varnish from a few professionals. Take a small can and try 1/3 each of varnish, Penetrol and thinner. It sounds like it may already be thinned enough. Use the better interlux thinner or equivalent and give it a try. If the brush pulls, add Penetrol. If the brush feels too oily, add varnish.

Penetrol is a great product. I always add it to oil based paints and it always improves the results. In those portions it may add a little extra shine to the varnish but it should get it to lay out a lot flatter.

.

[Tim]

I can't imagine that varnish thinned 50% with thinner would still go on as thickly as you describe. My stock answer would have been that you were underthinning the varnish, but maybe not. If you bought the two varnishes at the same place, it's possible that the stock was old, but unopened cans of varnish last many, many years without any ill effects, so this seems like an unlikely reason for your problems.

I've always had good luck with the Epifanes rubbed effect satin varnish. It generally needs a bit of thinner, but nowhere near 50% in my experience; it's a lot thinner, typically, than the gloss Epifanes, for example. Penetrol is a good product and helps ease the brushability of any oil based product, but you shouldn't need to use it in order to get workable results. It's fine to choose to use it, though...but the regular thinner recomended for the varnish brand of choice will be adequate otherwise.

True varnish gurus would surely shudder, but I always use the good foam brushes for varnish--the nice kind from Jen-MFG with the wooden handles. I've had bad luck with every other sort of foam brush, so the brand is important (in my opinion)--forget the ones at the Despot or Wal-Mart unless they say Jen-MFG on the handle. The Jen brand brushes work well for varnish of all types, in my experience. I buy the 2" ones by the case; they cost about $0.40 each.

If you're using these products on interior woodwork, there's no reason you can't used the Minwax satin polyurethane that you had good results with before. None of the satin products will hold up outdoors, and polyurethane "varnish" like Minwax and others should never be used on exterior wood at all (since it lacks the UV protectors found in spar varnish), but on the interior it would be fine. Stick with a product you like and have good results with.

Good luck, either way.

Tipping it off, even after 1 minute leaves the finish very streaky, almost pulling the varnish and dragging it.

This statement just jumped out at me. If you're applying the varnish, letting it sit, and then rebrushing (or "tipping") it, this could be your problem. Varnish should be flowed on carefully and not overbrushed--and never brushed over once it's sat on the surface for one minute or more. In particular, the satin varnishes dry quite quickly, so if you're "tipping" it after a minute or so, rather than flowing it on carefully and smoothly on initial application, this might well be your problem. The varnish is already starting to set up by this point, and additional brushing tends to leave brush marks.

Flow the varnish on in a smooth, even coat, with minimal brushing. Don't try to squeeze all the varnish out of each brushfull, which tends to lead to overbrushing. There should be plenty of varnish in the brush at all times, but you need to keep dipping and flowing, rather than "brushing" in the truest sense.

[Dan H]

Thanks for your help everyone.
Two things helped out here.
First, learning to flow the varnish on instead of painting it on. A lot less brush strokes and more just pushing the varnish along, sort of.
Second, a little Xylene helps out tremendously. I still have brush marks but you have to look real hard and at just the right angle to see them. I think I'm still getting brush marks because it?s 105 in the shop and things are just too hot. I'll try a coat in the house today and see if that helps. The flammability of it all scares me a little doing it in the house.
However, a marked improvement and livable results.
Thanks Again,
Dan
He who makes no mistakes, usually makes nothing at all right?

[Quetzalsailor]

The piece that leaped out at me was the '90 degrees'. I'd bet practically any finish would be a pain at that temperature. It would be loosing volatiles at great rate; I think 'flashing' is the 10 cent word. You'd have to be working very fast to maintain the wet edge, getting it down, evenly spread, and tipped very quickly.

I have occasionally had the same sorts of problems with getting an even sheen and put it down to improper application rates and overbrushing. Sanding it out and overcoating took care of it.

Perhaps the instructions on the can would tell you the atmospheric conditions required for success, and for appropriate thinners and rates of thinning. (I know, I know...; I don't tend to read 'em either).

I remember our floor refinisher who insisted on thinning the polyurethane with gasoline! I also remember the arson case where the home owners were accused when the investigators found gasoline in their burned home. They were vindicated because it was leaded gas which hadn't been made for years before the fire; it was in their floor finish.