I have been sanding on my "new" ensign ("old" hull # 532) for two days now, and I have found these tiny half moon shaped cracks all over the hull below the water line. I am new to restoring old fiberglass, and am not sure what to do with these. I know this is not the case, but it looks as if someone shot the hull with a million bee bee's. Are these stress cracks, and what should I do to fix them? I have pictures of these cracks if anyone is unclear. I truly love this boat, and am willing to put the time into whatever needs to be done, but I am desperate for advice. Also; how do I get around the stands on my trailor for sanding and painting? can I remove the boat from the trailor? If so, how? thanks for you time, and e-mail me anytime @ [email protected].
thanks,
Sra Robert Hensley
USAF
small cracks in my ensign
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Dave, 397
What these are...are the outside of a gagillion little pockmarks/voids between the gelcoat and the first layer of matting.
In a structural sense they are no big deal.
One has to bear in mind that these boat were all constructed in a big hurry using very resin-rich construction, meaning that they didn't likely spend any time de-airing much of anything and the only roller the boat probably saw was something akin a paint roller that slopped mucho resin in to saturate everything and apply pressure in the process of doing so. Hence, it's not too surprising to see this.
My Triton had a huge amount of these in the aft end of the keel where it would be harder still to roll out any air.
If you sand further, you will open them up, or open up more. If you take a jack knife tip or a screwdriver and press on the half-moon, the gelcoat will pop free in that spot and open the pock for filling. You may also see fine, short straight lines which are the same thing.
While I am sure everyone will have a different idea of the best way to handle any given repair, I think it's pretty important to provide a water barrier on the bottom of the hull besides the paint, and with gelcoat this thin and/or compromised a thorough drying and a barrier coat are my thought of what to do.
Not knowing the design of your trailer I can't really advise what to do. Some trailers that are designed to be adjustable, you can drop individual pads and by one means or another collapse the vertical support for access. Of course, you need to have some boat stands at your disposal in order to be doing this so that the boat can be supported by something in the general vicinity while the original pad is out. In practice, one of course sets the new jack before lowering the previous one, and vice-versa.
If you have a trailer that is so specific to one boat design as to be non-adjustable...that might be tough. In that case I can think of a few things to do, but by far the safest for both you and the boat would be to have a crane remove the boat from the trailer and set it on jackstands in order to do the work. Goes without saying, but boats are heavy!
Best,
Dave
In a structural sense they are no big deal.
One has to bear in mind that these boat were all constructed in a big hurry using very resin-rich construction, meaning that they didn't likely spend any time de-airing much of anything and the only roller the boat probably saw was something akin a paint roller that slopped mucho resin in to saturate everything and apply pressure in the process of doing so. Hence, it's not too surprising to see this.
My Triton had a huge amount of these in the aft end of the keel where it would be harder still to roll out any air.
If you sand further, you will open them up, or open up more. If you take a jack knife tip or a screwdriver and press on the half-moon, the gelcoat will pop free in that spot and open the pock for filling. You may also see fine, short straight lines which are the same thing.
While I am sure everyone will have a different idea of the best way to handle any given repair, I think it's pretty important to provide a water barrier on the bottom of the hull besides the paint, and with gelcoat this thin and/or compromised a thorough drying and a barrier coat are my thought of what to do.
Not knowing the design of your trailer I can't really advise what to do. Some trailers that are designed to be adjustable, you can drop individual pads and by one means or another collapse the vertical support for access. Of course, you need to have some boat stands at your disposal in order to be doing this so that the boat can be supported by something in the general vicinity while the original pad is out. In practice, one of course sets the new jack before lowering the previous one, and vice-versa.
If you have a trailer that is so specific to one boat design as to be non-adjustable...that might be tough. In that case I can think of a few things to do, but by far the safest for both you and the boat would be to have a crane remove the boat from the trailer and set it on jackstands in order to do the work. Goes without saying, but boats are heavy!
Best,
Dave
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robbh1
waiting for my registration to be accepted
Dave,
First off, thank you very much for your response. That being said, I know this baot has been clompletely dried. It has been out of water for a few years in northern california. As for a barrier coat, are you talking abbout an epoxy layer like I have read in this forum? If so, this should likely not be done on the trailor. I will have difficulty getting it removed outside of taking it to a boat yard which will hamper further work......I assume this is the plight of all of those who restore old boats. thanks again for your time. I do appreciate it.
Robb
First off, thank you very much for your response. That being said, I know this baot has been clompletely dried. It has been out of water for a few years in northern california. As for a barrier coat, are you talking abbout an epoxy layer like I have read in this forum? If so, this should likely not be done on the trailor. I will have difficulty getting it removed outside of taking it to a boat yard which will hamper further work......I assume this is the plight of all of those who restore old boats. thanks again for your time. I do appreciate it.
Robb
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robbh1
crappy trailor
Honestly,
This trailor that I have is crap. It seems to be a series of jerry rigs, and origionally for another non keel boat. . It also needs a signifigant amount of work before hauling this boat any further. That is another reason I need to remove the boat from it. Do boat yards offer services where they will come to your home and lift a boat for something less than a fortune. I am in the military, and don't make a whole lot, and a large all at once expense can be prohibitive. Oh well, well see. I will get her back into grace one way or another. I've been dreaming of owning this exact boat since I worked on a tall ship years ago....the only hard part is justifying this to the pregnant wife. I did let her name it, ad that earned me some points.... Time,money, and a happy relationship will tell. Thanks again for your time and advice.
Robb
This trailor that I have is crap. It seems to be a series of jerry rigs, and origionally for another non keel boat. . It also needs a signifigant amount of work before hauling this boat any further. That is another reason I need to remove the boat from it. Do boat yards offer services where they will come to your home and lift a boat for something less than a fortune. I am in the military, and don't make a whole lot, and a large all at once expense can be prohibitive. Oh well, well see. I will get her back into grace one way or another. I've been dreaming of owning this exact boat since I worked on a tall ship years ago....the only hard part is justifying this to the pregnant wife. I did let her name it, ad that earned me some points.... Time,money, and a happy relationship will tell. Thanks again for your time and advice.
Robb
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Dave, 397
Epoxy barrier coat indeed.
Check for a good price on materials at Progressive Epoxy Polymers (www.epoxyproducts.com).
As to getting the boat lifted off the trailer, you're pretty well stuck if it is at your home...sort of hard to bring a crane or a travellift to your house, you know?
Now...here is a thought..or a few:
What you need, by the sound of it, is a way to get the boat on jacks, off the trailer, in order to repair the trailer to fit the boat well.
FWIW, the old Dragon I sail on from time to time comes in and out of the water each year and is moved on a trailer which is not anything more than a flatbed car hauler-type affair with heavy axles. Joe used some 6x and 4x dimensional lumber to buld a cradle atop the trailer bed that the boat sits on.
I don't know what your MOS is, so I don't know what you can get access to use...you will know who and what you can work on base to get the job done better than I...but...
Is there a decent size storage yard outside your base Auto Hobby Shop where you could at least temporarily hardstand the boat if you had jackstands?
The jackstands are pretty simple items, and you could weld up the majority of the stand from pipe in the same hobby shop...or have someone do it for you for whatever favor you could do them??? You might be able to find the pipe as scrap. The threaded portion...could be the top of an old aircraft jack (ahem) or similar with some sort of swivel cobbed together.
Every military base has things that need to be lifted, things to lift them with, and men to run those things...the trick may just be to find the right guy with the right inclination...and of course, try not to get busted!
The fellow who runs the crane in our yard...yes, he knows a good deal about handling boats. But..you know what? He is, first and foremost, a crane operator. He will (and does) lift anything he needs to. Follow me on this idea?
If a guy could come up with a pair of adequate canvas (or nylon) lifting slings, there are a lot of things that could lift an Ensign...like a big forklift (the spreader bar needed with a crane is done away with by locking the forks in place at the appropriate spacing). The boat only need raise high enough to clear the trailer to pull out from under...The Ensign is light enough that I bet I could do it with a little Hyster 90 as long as I had long enough forks to keep from clanging the boat. Something like a 260 or bigger would do for sure. Make certain if you do this that the slings are very, very well lashed to keep them spread so they cannot slide on the forks and clang the lift or, worse, neck sut at the top and try to fold up the hull. A piece of pipe placed between the big shackles would insure that couldn't occur.
While I think I would use real, big-time caution about it, a Genie-lift would probably lift the boat just fine as well, but you would need to pay very close attention that you did not exceed the capacity at the needed boom extension. Toppling one would be hard on the boat and hard to explain to Uncle..and it's a bit too big to take off and bury! LOL!
For the cradle on the trailer...there is no doubt a junkpile or two you could hit up for the remains of larger-sized crates, which are often framed in just what you need. Add some bolts, nuts and washers, and some old carpet and you're in biz.
I still manage to come up with a lot of stuff needed when it is...by wandering around the back 40 of the boatyard and nosing in the garbage and the scrap metal bin. An AFB has got to be one big cornucopia of trash piles and scrap bins if one only knows where to look and who drinks what.
If you are lucky, you could find everything you needed on base, get the jacks made, get it off the trailer, fix up the trailer (making the cradle such that you can remove supports as desired), put it on the cradle, and take your boat, trailer and stands home again to continue the work.
An added benefit...would be the ability then to launch and recover from the trailer (by virtue of having one that works) and also to have jackstands to facilitate the work needed now but also the work needed for future maintenance like periodic bottom painting, etc.
One other wacko idea...
Assuming one got ahold of a pair of lift slings, and assuming that they could somehow be VERY well secured at the desired positon...you might very well be able to lift her with an above-ground type automotive lift (hobby shop again). Of course, you would be tying up a bay the whole time the boat was hanging there. If you do this, make sure that you have blocking and have jackstands so that the boat will not hang on the slings the whole time (bad idea).
Sounds like you already have enough dedication for the cause, and if you let your mind wander creative...you'll find a way to get it done...remember, Aim High! (hehehe)
Best,
Dave
Check for a good price on materials at Progressive Epoxy Polymers (www.epoxyproducts.com).
As to getting the boat lifted off the trailer, you're pretty well stuck if it is at your home...sort of hard to bring a crane or a travellift to your house, you know?
Now...here is a thought..or a few:
What you need, by the sound of it, is a way to get the boat on jacks, off the trailer, in order to repair the trailer to fit the boat well.
FWIW, the old Dragon I sail on from time to time comes in and out of the water each year and is moved on a trailer which is not anything more than a flatbed car hauler-type affair with heavy axles. Joe used some 6x and 4x dimensional lumber to buld a cradle atop the trailer bed that the boat sits on.
I don't know what your MOS is, so I don't know what you can get access to use...you will know who and what you can work on base to get the job done better than I...but...
Is there a decent size storage yard outside your base Auto Hobby Shop where you could at least temporarily hardstand the boat if you had jackstands?
The jackstands are pretty simple items, and you could weld up the majority of the stand from pipe in the same hobby shop...or have someone do it for you for whatever favor you could do them??? You might be able to find the pipe as scrap. The threaded portion...could be the top of an old aircraft jack (ahem) or similar with some sort of swivel cobbed together.
Every military base has things that need to be lifted, things to lift them with, and men to run those things...the trick may just be to find the right guy with the right inclination...and of course, try not to get busted!
The fellow who runs the crane in our yard...yes, he knows a good deal about handling boats. But..you know what? He is, first and foremost, a crane operator. He will (and does) lift anything he needs to. Follow me on this idea?
If a guy could come up with a pair of adequate canvas (or nylon) lifting slings, there are a lot of things that could lift an Ensign...like a big forklift (the spreader bar needed with a crane is done away with by locking the forks in place at the appropriate spacing). The boat only need raise high enough to clear the trailer to pull out from under...The Ensign is light enough that I bet I could do it with a little Hyster 90 as long as I had long enough forks to keep from clanging the boat. Something like a 260 or bigger would do for sure. Make certain if you do this that the slings are very, very well lashed to keep them spread so they cannot slide on the forks and clang the lift or, worse, neck sut at the top and try to fold up the hull. A piece of pipe placed between the big shackles would insure that couldn't occur.
While I think I would use real, big-time caution about it, a Genie-lift would probably lift the boat just fine as well, but you would need to pay very close attention that you did not exceed the capacity at the needed boom extension. Toppling one would be hard on the boat and hard to explain to Uncle..and it's a bit too big to take off and bury! LOL!
For the cradle on the trailer...there is no doubt a junkpile or two you could hit up for the remains of larger-sized crates, which are often framed in just what you need. Add some bolts, nuts and washers, and some old carpet and you're in biz.
I still manage to come up with a lot of stuff needed when it is...by wandering around the back 40 of the boatyard and nosing in the garbage and the scrap metal bin. An AFB has got to be one big cornucopia of trash piles and scrap bins if one only knows where to look and who drinks what.
If you are lucky, you could find everything you needed on base, get the jacks made, get it off the trailer, fix up the trailer (making the cradle such that you can remove supports as desired), put it on the cradle, and take your boat, trailer and stands home again to continue the work.
An added benefit...would be the ability then to launch and recover from the trailer (by virtue of having one that works) and also to have jackstands to facilitate the work needed now but also the work needed for future maintenance like periodic bottom painting, etc.
One other wacko idea...
Assuming one got ahold of a pair of lift slings, and assuming that they could somehow be VERY well secured at the desired positon...you might very well be able to lift her with an above-ground type automotive lift (hobby shop again). Of course, you would be tying up a bay the whole time the boat was hanging there. If you do this, make sure that you have blocking and have jackstands so that the boat will not hang on the slings the whole time (bad idea).
Sounds like you already have enough dedication for the cause, and if you let your mind wander creative...you'll find a way to get it done...remember, Aim High! (hehehe)
Best,
Dave
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bcooke
- Master of the Arcane
- Posts: 2272
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:55 pm
- Boat Name: Jenny
- Boat Type: 1966 Pearson Triton
- Location: Rowley, MA
- Contact:
I am not sure how big your money pile is and whether you could squeak one more trip out of your trailer but I ran into a similar situation.
I bought a trailer sailer (or sailor... there is some strong feelings on the correct spelling around here) several years ago without a second look at the trailer. After the seller dropped it off in my yard I realized the trailer was a total wreck. My solution was an expensive one. I went to a boat yard that was a dealer for the boat I bought and purchased a new trailer from them. The benefits were a trailer made specifically for the boat and they transferred the boat from the old trailer to the new for no charge. I think they even gave me a couple of hundred dollars for the old trailer (I see it around with a new rack to haul kayaks). It takes some time with a lot of shuffling but I can get the boat off the trailer and onto stands with an automotive jack, blocks to rest the boat on and boatstands.
Dave probably has more good practical advice but even after you get the boat onto stands you will still need to eventually find a suitable trailer. I wouldn't scrimp on the trailer either. It is just as important to a trailerable boat as good sails and a solid hull. A friend of mine tried to make do with a suspect trailer for too long and managed to dump his boat across three lanes of freeway traffic during rush hour. He was none too popular that day. A good trailer is worth the money in piece of mind alone.
Good luck.
-Britton
I bought a trailer sailer (or sailor... there is some strong feelings on the correct spelling around here) several years ago without a second look at the trailer. After the seller dropped it off in my yard I realized the trailer was a total wreck. My solution was an expensive one. I went to a boat yard that was a dealer for the boat I bought and purchased a new trailer from them. The benefits were a trailer made specifically for the boat and they transferred the boat from the old trailer to the new for no charge. I think they even gave me a couple of hundred dollars for the old trailer (I see it around with a new rack to haul kayaks). It takes some time with a lot of shuffling but I can get the boat off the trailer and onto stands with an automotive jack, blocks to rest the boat on and boatstands.
Dave probably has more good practical advice but even after you get the boat onto stands you will still need to eventually find a suitable trailer. I wouldn't scrimp on the trailer either. It is just as important to a trailerable boat as good sails and a solid hull. A friend of mine tried to make do with a suspect trailer for too long and managed to dump his boat across three lanes of freeway traffic during rush hour. He was none too popular that day. A good trailer is worth the money in piece of mind alone.
Good luck.
-Britton
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heartofgold
- Skilled Systems Installer
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pensacola Bay
- Contact:
Robb,
I am going to chime in, and go a little against the grain of some of the other very good advice which has been given here.
I would opt against the barrier coat, for several sensible reasons. First, based on the situation you described above, I presume (correct me if I am wrong) that you intend to store the boat on the trailer year round. The primary (though not only) reason for barrier coating is to prevent blisters. Boats which are dry stored will never get blisters. If that is the case, then I all you need is to dish out any poor areas with an angle grinder, and do proper job of patching these areas and do a basic job of fairing the hull. After that I would apply a primer and bottom paint which can dry out.
Second, presuming your trailer to be in repairable condition, I would do all the work on the trailer. You suggested that the trailer may have been used for a different boat and converted to accommodate the Ensign. If this is the case (and again) presuming your supports were not welded to the frame, it is easy to complete this work while on the trailer. When I did all my exterior work this year, I did it on the trailer. I provided the necessary support to accomplish all the work I needed, then I supported the trailer front and back with (automobile) jack stands and then I moved the boat on the trailer back about 12". This exposed any areas which had been left unfinished. I completed the work on these areas, and then repositioned the boat correctly on the trailer.
These steps, though time consuming and certainly a major undertaking, are much less labor and $$$ intensive than what others may have suggested. Is there anything wrong with barrier coating you hull or buying a new trailer? Certainly not; in fact, they are very desireable, and will add value to your boat. But either may be more than you need. Weight you options carefully before you make you begin a project which is too expensive, extensive or not necessary.
I am going to chime in, and go a little against the grain of some of the other very good advice which has been given here.
I would opt against the barrier coat, for several sensible reasons. First, based on the situation you described above, I presume (correct me if I am wrong) that you intend to store the boat on the trailer year round. The primary (though not only) reason for barrier coating is to prevent blisters. Boats which are dry stored will never get blisters. If that is the case, then I all you need is to dish out any poor areas with an angle grinder, and do proper job of patching these areas and do a basic job of fairing the hull. After that I would apply a primer and bottom paint which can dry out.
Second, presuming your trailer to be in repairable condition, I would do all the work on the trailer. You suggested that the trailer may have been used for a different boat and converted to accommodate the Ensign. If this is the case (and again) presuming your supports were not welded to the frame, it is easy to complete this work while on the trailer. When I did all my exterior work this year, I did it on the trailer. I provided the necessary support to accomplish all the work I needed, then I supported the trailer front and back with (automobile) jack stands and then I moved the boat on the trailer back about 12". This exposed any areas which had been left unfinished. I completed the work on these areas, and then repositioned the boat correctly on the trailer.
These steps, though time consuming and certainly a major undertaking, are much less labor and $$$ intensive than what others may have suggested. Is there anything wrong with barrier coating you hull or buying a new trailer? Certainly not; in fact, they are very desireable, and will add value to your boat. But either may be more than you need. Weight you options carefully before you make you begin a project which is too expensive, extensive or not necessary.
Doug
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
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rpbbh1
thanks everyone
I do appreciate all of the very good a varried advice. I have yet to decide what to do, but I figure I have some time due to the ammount of sanding before I even get to a point where I will need to move it. If anyone else has something good to offer, please feel free to pipe in. Lord knows I can use it. thank you so much, and have a nice day.
Robb
Robb
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Dave, 397
FWIW, the original shipping/storage cradles for the boats...and I mean ALL the old Pearsons...were made out of dimensional lumber. So, if it is a situation where you have a trailer frame that is good and everything else is not, you might be able to make a new affair that way, or so went my thinking. The one Joe built for the Dragon is way stout and works great.
I don't know if the Ensign class assn. would have a drawing for the original Ensign cradle, but if you end up needing one to work from I have the Ariel/Commander cradle drawing which I could send a copy of to get an idea from.
Are you planning on keeping her on the trailer most of the time? If so, I really liked Heart Of Golds thoughts on primer and paint in lieu of barrier coating. Having seen what saltwater does over time to raw 'glass, though...especially not-so-saturated raw 'glass...if she is to lay in the water for periods of time I'd really think on that barrier coat. All depends.
I wish Tim were here, he'd have a gagillion good answers. Anyone know when he'll be back?
Dave
I don't know if the Ensign class assn. would have a drawing for the original Ensign cradle, but if you end up needing one to work from I have the Ariel/Commander cradle drawing which I could send a copy of to get an idea from.
Are you planning on keeping her on the trailer most of the time? If so, I really liked Heart Of Golds thoughts on primer and paint in lieu of barrier coating. Having seen what saltwater does over time to raw 'glass, though...especially not-so-saturated raw 'glass...if she is to lay in the water for periods of time I'd really think on that barrier coat. All depends.
I wish Tim were here, he'd have a gagillion good answers. Anyone know when he'll be back?
Dave
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robbh1
you guys are great
thank you so much for the ongoing info. I have a-lot to absorb thus far, but all of this has been really helpful. I'm off to bed, so have a good night.
Robb
Robb
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heartofgold
- Skilled Systems Installer
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pensacola Bay
- Contact:
Tim? Tim who? Oh yea, you mean that guy who runs the forum...THAT Tim. I'm not sure when he is coming back. I believe he said a 4 week cruise, and his departure was delayed by a few days, but I would expect he would be back by maybe around the end of the week (give or take a week.) Nathan, have you heard anything more?
Doug
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
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penthink
Trailer Design
I recently sold my Pearson Electra, which is precisely the same hull as the Ensign, and with it the original designs for a trailer built of lumber. If you are interested, I can contact the gentleman who purchased the boat and ask him to photocopy the plans and send them to me. The plans were actually quite comprehensive and might be something to which you could attach your current axle/wheel assembly.
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robbh1
trailor plans
That would be awesome. I would really apreciate it. I can imagine that they would help out quite a bit.Contact me @ me e-mail and we'll work out the details. My address is [email protected] again.
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Dave, 397
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penthink
Yes. And let me tell you the list of names I like to call myself for ever having sold that boat. My great gripe with the Ensign has always been the lack of ability to cruise with it. That was what was wonderful about the Electra. A little tiny holding tank, a little sink, porta-pottie and a v-berth. And the sail performance! Sailed like a dream. At twenty knots, a single reef and all that was required was a single finger on the tiller. Of course, there came the moment when I went cruising for a weekend with a friend aboard his Pearson Vanguard and absolutely HAD to have a bigger boat. So I sold the Electra for a song and have lamented it ever since, although the gentleman who bought it has treated it like a child, so I can't complain about him. Aaaahhh, the memories.
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Dave, 397
Well...I think I understand. Regardless of whether I actually needed a bigger boat or not, I miss my Commander terribly and will probably never forgive myself, either...although she is being likewise well cared for.
I'm an unabashed Pearson Junkie, you know...even have Everett's autograph in the front cover of a minty-perfect copy of "The Lure Of Sailing". Yep, I'm that bad.
I'm also a firm believer and vocal proponent of the "get the smallest boat to do the job" method...a large part of the engineless sailing lifestyle as it applies for me is the old "go simple go small go now". There are a lot of old, small boats that could go anywhere with the right mods and forethought, and I try to promote that real heavily in my engineless sailing newsgroup. We are soon to have a real live website and I will be trying to make it a supermarket of topical offerings including both boats which people have done up and/or converted from auxiliaries, and boats which COULD BE used in that way. While she is a bit unusual --and because of that very fact-- I'm sure that there are lonely Electra languishing around that could make some young men or women very happy for a small amount of money. I'd like to add it to the list in that sense. If you would be willing to write a bit about the boat, her capabilities and her attributes and send it along with a few pics, I'll do just that. My E-mail is [email protected] .
Thanks,
Dave
I'm an unabashed Pearson Junkie, you know...even have Everett's autograph in the front cover of a minty-perfect copy of "The Lure Of Sailing". Yep, I'm that bad.
I'm also a firm believer and vocal proponent of the "get the smallest boat to do the job" method...a large part of the engineless sailing lifestyle as it applies for me is the old "go simple go small go now". There are a lot of old, small boats that could go anywhere with the right mods and forethought, and I try to promote that real heavily in my engineless sailing newsgroup. We are soon to have a real live website and I will be trying to make it a supermarket of topical offerings including both boats which people have done up and/or converted from auxiliaries, and boats which COULD BE used in that way. While she is a bit unusual --and because of that very fact-- I'm sure that there are lonely Electra languishing around that could make some young men or women very happy for a small amount of money. I'd like to add it to the list in that sense. If you would be willing to write a bit about the boat, her capabilities and her attributes and send it along with a few pics, I'll do just that. My E-mail is [email protected] .
Thanks,
Dave
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robbh1
this thig has a head!!!
So,
I forgot to mention that my little ensign has a actual marine head(ish thing). I think it will be removed for a number of reasons. The first of them being that it scares me. I have heard too many stories of these silly things malfunctioning, and sinking boats. Secondly, wouldn't a poti-potty be more space and time saving? Most of the "things" I will nedd to take care of on the baot don't need a actual head. If myself or my wife need to absolutely use the "facilities" I figure a simple walmart solution would do the trick. That being said; What do I do with the two holes in my hull? Any ideas?
Robb
I forgot to mention that my little ensign has a actual marine head(ish thing). I think it will be removed for a number of reasons. The first of them being that it scares me. I have heard too many stories of these silly things malfunctioning, and sinking boats. Secondly, wouldn't a poti-potty be more space and time saving? Most of the "things" I will nedd to take care of on the baot don't need a actual head. If myself or my wife need to absolutely use the "facilities" I figure a simple walmart solution would do the trick. That being said; What do I do with the two holes in my hull? Any ideas?
Robb
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dasein668
- Boateg
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:09 am
- Boat Name: Dasein
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton 668
- Location: Portland, Maine
- Contact:
I just re-read the previous posts and saw that someone asked about when Tim was supposed to be back... I expect them home next weekend, though I haven't spoken with him since we parted ways in Buck's Harbor on... mmmm... the 2nd, I think. We determined that depending on weather they might be back in time for Gavin's first b-day party which is coming up this Saturday. So there you have it.
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
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Dave, 397
Head, holes in hull
The holes are easy enough, glass 'em up. Grind a dish on the inside that goes out about 8" in idameter and glass up there. Then do the same on the outside. The innermost layers of glass from inside and outside...should be against each other in the end.
I will say for the record that a porta-potti is a disgusting thing. Like having a pit toilet in the boat. Stinky. And...you gotta keep a stick nearby to help (uh...) "things" along down the hole. Nasty.
A fitted bucket is much cheaper, simpler, and gives you the ability to have a real adult-size seat. If the bucket gets nasty, get a new 5-gallon plastic bucket! You can also line said bucket with a double-bag job of heavy-guage black plastic trash bags (yes, they make the heavy black ones that small, get 'em at the janitorial supply house pretty cheap) a la camp toilet.
I can send you some pics of a very nice bucket setup if you like.
And...I'll share just one bit of good cheer, too, about a porta-potti I once owned.
Turned out to have a lot less holding capacity than I thought. Lots more flush water than holding capacity. Old girlfriend and I were in Canada where they pump an entire city's worth of blackwater straight out into the water all day everyday and have no holding-tank requirements either...so no porta-potti dumps. This was a sort of swanky marina and I couldn't bring myself to carry the thing up and dump it out down the men's room toilet. The restroom door even said 'Gentlemen', to give a better picture of all this.
Girlfriend commented that the porta=potti was getting pretty full the day before, you see. So, next morning, she uses. Works OK. I use. NOT OK!
Both plucking with the galley tongs and bailing with a sponge(!) were required, boys. I had no rubber gloves aboard, either. We left later that day, and I emptied the thing OTS.
As soon as we got back, I got rid of it and bought a used Wilcox to put back in the boat (thruhulls stilll there), USCG be darned! There are nefarious ways around that rule, you know...
Dave
I will say for the record that a porta-potti is a disgusting thing. Like having a pit toilet in the boat. Stinky. And...you gotta keep a stick nearby to help (uh...) "things" along down the hole. Nasty.
A fitted bucket is much cheaper, simpler, and gives you the ability to have a real adult-size seat. If the bucket gets nasty, get a new 5-gallon plastic bucket! You can also line said bucket with a double-bag job of heavy-guage black plastic trash bags (yes, they make the heavy black ones that small, get 'em at the janitorial supply house pretty cheap) a la camp toilet.
I can send you some pics of a very nice bucket setup if you like.
And...I'll share just one bit of good cheer, too, about a porta-potti I once owned.
Turned out to have a lot less holding capacity than I thought. Lots more flush water than holding capacity. Old girlfriend and I were in Canada where they pump an entire city's worth of blackwater straight out into the water all day everyday and have no holding-tank requirements either...so no porta-potti dumps. This was a sort of swanky marina and I couldn't bring myself to carry the thing up and dump it out down the men's room toilet. The restroom door even said 'Gentlemen', to give a better picture of all this.
Girlfriend commented that the porta=potti was getting pretty full the day before, you see. So, next morning, she uses. Works OK. I use. NOT OK!
Both plucking with the galley tongs and bailing with a sponge(!) were required, boys. I had no rubber gloves aboard, either. We left later that day, and I emptied the thing OTS.
As soon as we got back, I got rid of it and bought a used Wilcox to put back in the boat (thruhulls stilll there), USCG be darned! There are nefarious ways around that rule, you know...
Dave
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robbh1
hehe
hehehehe,
I'm sorry to laugh at you past toils, but I gues that may have been the greatest gift you could ever give a stranger. So.....Now to rethink the porti-potty idea....This restoration sure adds a-lot of thought to my life. There just seems to be more things to think about than solutions at this point. Once again I do believe this to be the curse of those that restore. I can see this becoming a bit of an addiction.So little time so many projects.
Thanks again,
Robb
I'm sorry to laugh at you past toils, but I gues that may have been the greatest gift you could ever give a stranger. So.....Now to rethink the porti-potty idea....This restoration sure adds a-lot of thought to my life. There just seems to be more things to think about than solutions at this point. Once again I do believe this to be the curse of those that restore. I can see this becoming a bit of an addiction.So little time so many projects.
Thanks again,
Robb
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robbh1
wife and bucket?????
I have no problem with such things. You give me a log with enough clearance and I'm happy. My wife and a bucket? That on the other hand will need a bit of sweet talking. I come from a "make do" upbringing, but she on the other hand has always heard a flush for the prelude to her "moment". This will take time. Plus the system I have is illegal as I understand. No holding tank as far as I can tell. I really am enjoying the hunt for soutions.
Thanks again,
Robb
P.S. I'm waiting for my registration to be approved so that I can log in for real. I will be robbh.
Thanks again,
Robb
P.S. I'm waiting for my registration to be approved so that I can log in for real. I will be robbh.
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robbh1
sorry, I can't seem to get this in one post
Sorry,
One more thing. Dave, I would love to see those pictures. Any ideas help.
I can't seem to get all of my thoughts out in one post. Sorry again.
Robb
One more thing. Dave, I would love to see those pictures. Any ideas help.
I can't seem to get all of my thoughts out in one post. Sorry again.
Robb
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Dave, 397
I'll see if I can get the scanner to work and get the pics into usable format.
I'm not certain that your wife would enjoy the porta-poot much more than a bucket, by the sound of things.
The bucket is actually more sanitary and less stinky. I think I've championed the bucket-head thing a fair bit here, you might go read on the "Head Plumbing" thread a bit and see if it was in there.
Unlike a marine toilet, with a fitted bucket you get a real adult-size seat (so you don't feel like you are sitting on the potty chair! I always meant to raise the quarterberths in the Commander, for a few reasons, but one was that they were so low I not only got to sit on the potty chair every morning I got to eat at the Thanksgiving-Day-at-Grandma's 'children's table'! Sheesh!) A good bucket setup seals air and "water" tight when the lid is closed, is simple to make and costs very little.
I just got my seat recently, in fact...Oak! It's in the wife's woodfinishing pile(no puns intended!) to sand, sand, sand and then apply a good 8 to 10 coats of semi-gloss varnish! Deee-lux! That seat is the only particularly costly part of the whole thing, unless you want to spend 95.00 or so on a stainless steel version of the standard 5 gallon plastic bucket! My buddy ended up buying one which he has yet to use...I bought one but ended up taking it back once I thought of someone going to dump it out and and swill it out at 6 knots and...goodbye 95.00 bucket!
In brief, you got a seat, mounted to a board with 5200. The regular seat hinge is done away with and replaced with a pair of SS Strap hinges to allow for...a closed cell neoprene weatherstrip (the stuff they use to seal the canopy on a pickup truck works great, but needs extra glue for the long haul) seal on the underside of the lid seals it to the seat, and a couple of cheap anti-rattle latches hold the lid down tight. Alternatively, you can sew a couple webbing straps with each half of a side-lock buckle and attach one to the top of the seat with a couple screws and trim washers and one to the fascia of the bucket box. Your choice...three dolllars vs. 15 dollars.
The seat is mounted to a piece of plywood that makes up the top of the bucket enclosure...this plywood needs to be thoroughly sealed with resin and then painted, of course. The rear edge of the plywood top is attached with a length of piano hinge to whatever behind it is going to hinge to. I've never looked at an Ensign head install, but in the Ariel and Commander the head was in a notch in the v-berth that was covered by a flip-up piece of ply--if yours is like that, then you already have a lot of the makings including that piece of piano hinge.
There is then a good seal glued to the bottom of the ply that will seal against the top of the bucket. The hinged top is held down in similar fashion, parts-wise, to the way the seat lid is held shut. The bucket is held in the proper position with wooden chocks located around the bottom. Again, any and all wood around this should be well sealed. A piece of plywood is mounted over the front of the affair to make a nice clean look and hide the bucket.
Most setups use standard 5-gallon buckets, but if your boat would not allow the height of a 5-gallon, there are lots of 4-gallon buckets in the world, too...mayo and other food condiments come in them, and you can get them for the asking at most any deli or supermarket prepared food counter. They are round and heavy just like a 5-gallon, just a bit smaller in diameter and shorter.
Whether you put it in the porta-potti or put it in the bucket, you are still carrying it along...but you do not need to keep a nasty old stick handy (best to mark which end is to hold, too!) to poke stuff down a bucket!
My friend Tom got the seat for his (oak, too--I'm just keeping up with the joneses, you see) on sale, and used webbing and buckles, plus piano hinge and offcut marine ply from the used marine store. Counting the 5200 and the resin, and the weatherstrip too...he spent a bit less than 45.00..which was about 30.00 less than the cheapest porta-potti he could find.
There is a lot of conjecture on the legality of an "open" head, but for it to be truly illegal they do have to have reasonable evidence that it has been in use within the proscribed distance of shore, etc.
Curiously, it is entirely legal, from the CG perspective at least (not thinking about exposure laws here) to do one's business over the side. Go figure.
Where is your holding device? Why, right here, see my deck bucket with the lid that snaps on? Sure. That head? Naw...only use it in Canada. See the lock on the discharge seacock? Legal beagle.
BTW...the head cannot sink the boat if the seacocks are both kept shut unless it is in immediate use, which is sort of a good idea in any installation and imperative in an installation where it is impractical to put an anti-siphon loop in the system such as Ensign/Electra or Ariel/Commander.
I gotta say it once more....
Varnished...Oak...Fullsize...Seat!
(of which, while in progress, I must get a pic. Mary has these racks I rigged up outside the shop from which she hangs the parts she's varnishing using small eyehooks screwed into places which will be inconspicuous later and nylon string. She'll be the talk of the yard with a toilet seat hanging up there!)
Dave
I'm not certain that your wife would enjoy the porta-poot much more than a bucket, by the sound of things.
The bucket is actually more sanitary and less stinky. I think I've championed the bucket-head thing a fair bit here, you might go read on the "Head Plumbing" thread a bit and see if it was in there.
Unlike a marine toilet, with a fitted bucket you get a real adult-size seat (so you don't feel like you are sitting on the potty chair! I always meant to raise the quarterberths in the Commander, for a few reasons, but one was that they were so low I not only got to sit on the potty chair every morning I got to eat at the Thanksgiving-Day-at-Grandma's 'children's table'! Sheesh!) A good bucket setup seals air and "water" tight when the lid is closed, is simple to make and costs very little.
I just got my seat recently, in fact...Oak! It's in the wife's woodfinishing pile(no puns intended!) to sand, sand, sand and then apply a good 8 to 10 coats of semi-gloss varnish! Deee-lux! That seat is the only particularly costly part of the whole thing, unless you want to spend 95.00 or so on a stainless steel version of the standard 5 gallon plastic bucket! My buddy ended up buying one which he has yet to use...I bought one but ended up taking it back once I thought of someone going to dump it out and and swill it out at 6 knots and...goodbye 95.00 bucket!
In brief, you got a seat, mounted to a board with 5200. The regular seat hinge is done away with and replaced with a pair of SS Strap hinges to allow for...a closed cell neoprene weatherstrip (the stuff they use to seal the canopy on a pickup truck works great, but needs extra glue for the long haul) seal on the underside of the lid seals it to the seat, and a couple of cheap anti-rattle latches hold the lid down tight. Alternatively, you can sew a couple webbing straps with each half of a side-lock buckle and attach one to the top of the seat with a couple screws and trim washers and one to the fascia of the bucket box. Your choice...three dolllars vs. 15 dollars.
The seat is mounted to a piece of plywood that makes up the top of the bucket enclosure...this plywood needs to be thoroughly sealed with resin and then painted, of course. The rear edge of the plywood top is attached with a length of piano hinge to whatever behind it is going to hinge to. I've never looked at an Ensign head install, but in the Ariel and Commander the head was in a notch in the v-berth that was covered by a flip-up piece of ply--if yours is like that, then you already have a lot of the makings including that piece of piano hinge.
There is then a good seal glued to the bottom of the ply that will seal against the top of the bucket. The hinged top is held down in similar fashion, parts-wise, to the way the seat lid is held shut. The bucket is held in the proper position with wooden chocks located around the bottom. Again, any and all wood around this should be well sealed. A piece of plywood is mounted over the front of the affair to make a nice clean look and hide the bucket.
Most setups use standard 5-gallon buckets, but if your boat would not allow the height of a 5-gallon, there are lots of 4-gallon buckets in the world, too...mayo and other food condiments come in them, and you can get them for the asking at most any deli or supermarket prepared food counter. They are round and heavy just like a 5-gallon, just a bit smaller in diameter and shorter.
Whether you put it in the porta-potti or put it in the bucket, you are still carrying it along...but you do not need to keep a nasty old stick handy (best to mark which end is to hold, too!) to poke stuff down a bucket!
My friend Tom got the seat for his (oak, too--I'm just keeping up with the joneses, you see) on sale, and used webbing and buckles, plus piano hinge and offcut marine ply from the used marine store. Counting the 5200 and the resin, and the weatherstrip too...he spent a bit less than 45.00..which was about 30.00 less than the cheapest porta-potti he could find.
There is a lot of conjecture on the legality of an "open" head, but for it to be truly illegal they do have to have reasonable evidence that it has been in use within the proscribed distance of shore, etc.
Curiously, it is entirely legal, from the CG perspective at least (not thinking about exposure laws here) to do one's business over the side. Go figure.
Where is your holding device? Why, right here, see my deck bucket with the lid that snaps on? Sure. That head? Naw...only use it in Canada. See the lock on the discharge seacock? Legal beagle.
BTW...the head cannot sink the boat if the seacocks are both kept shut unless it is in immediate use, which is sort of a good idea in any installation and imperative in an installation where it is impractical to put an anti-siphon loop in the system such as Ensign/Electra or Ariel/Commander.
I gotta say it once more....
Varnished...Oak...Fullsize...Seat!
(of which, while in progress, I must get a pic. Mary has these racks I rigged up outside the shop from which she hangs the parts she's varnishing using small eyehooks screwed into places which will be inconspicuous later and nylon string. She'll be the talk of the yard with a toilet seat hanging up there!)
Dave
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heartofgold
- Skilled Systems Installer
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pensacola Bay
- Contact:
Dave,
I too am very interested in seeing your tiol-a-bucket pictures when you get them. I almost bought a porta-thingie this weekend, but am reconsidering that. As I still have the whole of the interior to rebuild this winter, I am completely open to doing what I may choose inside. Thanks.
I too am very interested in seeing your tiol-a-bucket pictures when you get them. I almost bought a porta-thingie this weekend, but am reconsidering that. As I still have the whole of the interior to rebuild this winter, I am completely open to doing what I may choose inside. Thanks.
Doug
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
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penthink
DON'T TOUCH THOSE THRU-HULLS!
I had the same concerns about the head sinking my Electra, and I was going to take out the thru-hulls and do the grinding and glassing thing and all of that. Don't bother. Just close up the valves, and leave 'em be. That is a lot of work, and unless you are seriously handy, which I am most certainly not, doing that glass work will require a lot of glassing time that could be better spend sailing. In retrospect, what I should have done is rigged the toilet and used it as necessary. I have yet to meet a woman (here comes the sexist remark that will get me slapped in writing), regardless of how "outdoorsy" she claims to be, who would not rather use a full-blown, four alarm marine head than a bucket, porta-potty or worse yet, the stern pulpit approach. I am telling you, once you get the boat in the water and sail it a few times, you're going to want to go on an overnight, or at least an eight hour sail, and you are going to be much more popular with her if she is not wrestling with the top to a pickle bucket after she is done with her business. Just my opinion of course, but one to consider.
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penthink
Tim's Return
By the way, what do you suppose Lackey is going to think when he gets back, and opens this forum to see forty-three pages of in-depth conversations about our shared toilet experiences? Heh heh.
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Dave, 397
Ah. I must then have the nearly-perfect-wife. DECISION's discharge seacock was jammed up shut at one point, and Mary happily used a bucket "by itself on a plate", as in no seat or other fitments.
That, and before her back was torn up, she'd sometimes grab the mainsheet tail, cleat it off and hold it like a bullrope while 'hiking out' off the weather quarter. I mention this is in such detail because of the day I looked around and said that indeed there were no boats nearby as she backed out stepping over the lifelines...only to have a little powerboat appear outta nowhere and come zipping by to have a better look, clapping and cheering as they did so. The sight of M continuing to hang on and handle the biz while we took the wake...would have been worthy of a video. After that, she just used the deck bucket!
It does occur to me that for those not already connected to a woman, the bucket head would be an excellent filter. Yet another advantage! (yes, Mary did score points with me with her business-doing methodology)
Humorous to me in light of Jeff M's clumping-kitty-litter-in-a-bucket setup, my old deck bucket was a little short squat (sorry folks) one that had originally contained (according to the printing on the side) a product called "Fresh Step Scoop"!
I should clarify that a 'fitted bucket' involves a fixed installation with a positively sealing lid which IS A REAL LIVE TOILET SEAT as described in my last post. Like a tiny San-i-Kan inside your boat only you can dump and rinse it with ease and with a full seal against sloppage and odor.
Remember about lining it with the plastic sacks, too. There are some things that one does not like to keep around long, and it would be rude to dump out in an anchorage (remember the movie 'Caddyshack'?). In that event, one simply takes the "garbage" ashore to deposit in the trash barrels provided. Some anchorages of course do not have said garbage containers, in which case it is also possible to pop a lid on the bucket, stick the deck bucket in there instead, and deal with it later.
Dave
That, and before her back was torn up, she'd sometimes grab the mainsheet tail, cleat it off and hold it like a bullrope while 'hiking out' off the weather quarter. I mention this is in such detail because of the day I looked around and said that indeed there were no boats nearby as she backed out stepping over the lifelines...only to have a little powerboat appear outta nowhere and come zipping by to have a better look, clapping and cheering as they did so. The sight of M continuing to hang on and handle the biz while we took the wake...would have been worthy of a video. After that, she just used the deck bucket!
It does occur to me that for those not already connected to a woman, the bucket head would be an excellent filter. Yet another advantage! (yes, Mary did score points with me with her business-doing methodology)
Humorous to me in light of Jeff M's clumping-kitty-litter-in-a-bucket setup, my old deck bucket was a little short squat (sorry folks) one that had originally contained (according to the printing on the side) a product called "Fresh Step Scoop"!
I should clarify that a 'fitted bucket' involves a fixed installation with a positively sealing lid which IS A REAL LIVE TOILET SEAT as described in my last post. Like a tiny San-i-Kan inside your boat only you can dump and rinse it with ease and with a full seal against sloppage and odor.
Remember about lining it with the plastic sacks, too. There are some things that one does not like to keep around long, and it would be rude to dump out in an anchorage (remember the movie 'Caddyshack'?). In that event, one simply takes the "garbage" ashore to deposit in the trash barrels provided. Some anchorages of course do not have said garbage containers, in which case it is also possible to pop a lid on the bucket, stick the deck bucket in there instead, and deal with it later.
Dave
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Robbh1
So much thought
I never imnagined so much thought would have to go into this topic. This is really.
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bcooke
- Master of the Arcane
- Posts: 2272
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:55 pm
- Boat Name: Jenny
- Boat Type: 1966 Pearson Triton
- Location: Rowley, MA
- Contact:
While that is nearly true and is the primary reason that I am also deciding how to install a toilet in my boat, (I am a single guy after all) I should point out that they are out there. Try volunteering for Outward Bound if you are looking for one. I remember working with a long time OB instructor on a course that in the midst of our conversation managed to deftly slide out on the gunwale with such finesse that, even sitting across from her, I didn't realize she was peeing until my sharp eyes caught the flick of her wrist snapping her thermals over her rearward exposed parts. That takes some serious skill and I was in awe (and she was married unfortunately).I have yet to meet a woman ... regardless of how "outdoorsy" she claims to be, who would not rather use a full-blown, four alarm marine head than a bucket, porta-potty or worse yet, the stern pulpit approach
While I agree that a porta-potti is a terrible thing and a bucket is much better, the porta-potti has the advantage of looking like a better alternative to the uninformed. If the average girl on my boat had a choice between a bucket and a porta-potti they would universally choose the porta-potti (unless she works for OB!)
You know... I wish we did have some women on this board that would harass us for being sexist. When Playboy starts putting their models in Tyvek coveralls with a DA sander in hand then I am going to subscribe.
-Britton
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penthink
No hairy armpits please
B, you're right. I too have had an OB experience - several days freezing my baguettes off in the Mahoosuc Range doing a winter camping trip. And there was no toilet paper. And the group (12 of us) was comprised of 50% women. And the instructors - one male, one female - suggested we use snowballs to do the, ahem, clean-up. And let me tell you, while I am aware that there are women capable of looking past my boat's hygienic shortcomings, none of them was on this trip. Never have I endured such unfettered screeching, yelping, moaning, and general malcontent over any issue. The one woman who held her tongue was our instructor. But to my eyes, it seemed as though NO hygienic product was of great interest to her. Thankfully, it was winter, so the more horrid details of her grooming practices were hidden from public view. But suffice it to say that the brand of woman - i.e., mildly interested in personal aroma, passing acquaintance with the Ivory company - I invite on to my boat are by their very nature interested in at least some level of comfort. No marine sanitary station that I have experienced is without its unpleasantries. Long story short, most of them stink from time to time. But affording some level of comfort is typically one of my priorities, and it is just such a shortcoming that led to my fiance allowing me to start shopping for a large, and more well-appointed boat. So in the end, I guess my approach hasn't been for naught. I certainly appreciate your point of view, but have determined for the most part that the OB "type" is not for me.
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robbh1
cool wife
Well,
I mentioned the bucket concept to the wife, and she cringed a little, and said she would either hold it or make due. She was however pleased with the full size seat idea. On the other hand I described the concept of the marine head, and she said "either way would be fine". I think she truly meant it. Time will tell.
I mentioned the bucket concept to the wife, and she cringed a little, and said she would either hold it or make due. She was however pleased with the full size seat idea. On the other hand I described the concept of the marine head, and she said "either way would be fine". I think she truly meant it. Time will tell.
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Dave, 397
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robbh1
my life just got so much better
I just hooked my shop vac up to my sander, and almost completely removed all the dust and flakes from the air when sanding my hull. Before this I was covered head to toe in green and red crap. Now I barely even get dusty. this is great!
Robb[/img]
Robb[/img]
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heartofgold
- Skilled Systems Installer
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pensacola Bay
- Contact:
Ancient Chinese proverb say: dust collection is your fiend--I mean friend.
Doug
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
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robbh1
cheaper sandpaper
I was buying my sandpaper for my orbital at the local ace hardware( 5-5" 60 grit disks for 5.00$).....What a rip off! I went to lowes, and got the same paper for 50-5" 40 and 60 grit for 15.00$ ea.!. Much cheaper.
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robbh1
barrier coat
the further I get into this hull, the more I am seriously thinking about a barrier coat. Some of the void cracks are getting pretty big(the size of a quarter) About how much would I likely spend putting a epoxy coat down? Time and effort aren't the issue. The cost could be prohibitive.
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Dave, 397
Try your local autobody supply outlet, it gets even cheaper...or, shop for full boxes/rolls on e-bay as there are a lot of sellers who sell insurance salvage, liquidation lots, surplus, etc.
Do check with progressive epoxy polymers for prices on that barrier coat and for other LPU and epoxy products as well...even with shipping, you often come out well ahead, and the quality of the products I have purchased has been superb. www.epoxyproducts.com
Dave
Do check with progressive epoxy polymers for prices on that barrier coat and for other LPU and epoxy products as well...even with shipping, you often come out well ahead, and the quality of the products I have purchased has been superb. www.epoxyproducts.com
Dave
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heartofgold
- Skilled Systems Installer
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pensacola Bay
- Contact:
I get all my sanding disks from my woodworker supply store. I get boxes of 100 sheets for $10-$12. If I wanted to order them online I could save another buck or two a box. Try this one out:
http://www.klingspor.com/
I rarely buy anything at Lowes/Home Depot anymore (when it comes to genuine woodworking supplies and similar products). I have found many cheaper outlets for such products. I have even found similar outlets for certain marine products, too. As an example, I usually buy all my screws/fastners through a local outfit called (amazingly) Threaded Fasteners. I get marine grade (316) stainless steel fasteners, as well as bronze and brass screws for literally pennies each. Two weeks ago I went to a WM store, where I bought a second shackle for the jib sheets on my #3 jib. It cost $11.40. Later that day I found myself at Threaded Fasteners where they sell a beefier version of the same size shackel for $2.25! Any yes, I am talking about a marine grade stainless steel shakle. (I was there looking for an unusual 6mm allen screw, which he found, but since I only wanted 1, he refused to charge me for it. As it turns out the owner is an avid offshore fisherman, and is beginning to expand into marine fastener products, in addition to commercial and industrial.) I bought three shakles on the spot, and then next day returned the other to WM.
Shop around, you can find some amazing deals in some unexpected places.
http://www.klingspor.com/
I rarely buy anything at Lowes/Home Depot anymore (when it comes to genuine woodworking supplies and similar products). I have found many cheaper outlets for such products. I have even found similar outlets for certain marine products, too. As an example, I usually buy all my screws/fastners through a local outfit called (amazingly) Threaded Fasteners. I get marine grade (316) stainless steel fasteners, as well as bronze and brass screws for literally pennies each. Two weeks ago I went to a WM store, where I bought a second shackle for the jib sheets on my #3 jib. It cost $11.40. Later that day I found myself at Threaded Fasteners where they sell a beefier version of the same size shackel for $2.25! Any yes, I am talking about a marine grade stainless steel shakle. (I was there looking for an unusual 6mm allen screw, which he found, but since I only wanted 1, he refused to charge me for it. As it turns out the owner is an avid offshore fisherman, and is beginning to expand into marine fastener products, in addition to commercial and industrial.) I bought three shakles on the spot, and then next day returned the other to WM.
Shop around, you can find some amazing deals in some unexpected places.
Doug
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
I saw this clip in the midst of a detailed discussion on ablutions and toilets, and I was a little shocked...till I realized that finally the post was back on topic! heheI just hooked my shop vac up
Robb (and other newbies): you are now officially activated here. Welcome! And sorry for the delay. Shame on me for going off cruising!
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
NO BARRIER COATS!! (except under specific circumstances, which your boat is not exhibiting)
But then I always say this. One will do what one pleases, but I am not a barrier coat believer. What a waste of time, labor, and money--and then the possibility of creating a problem where none existed in the first place.
I've discussed this in more detail elsewhere on this forum--try using the search feature to read my comments, which I won't rehash here for now.
But then I always say this. One will do what one pleases, but I am not a barrier coat believer. What a waste of time, labor, and money--and then the possibility of creating a problem where none existed in the first place.
I've discussed this in more detail elsewhere on this forum--try using the search feature to read my comments, which I won't rehash here for now.
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Dave, 397
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
Dave,Dave, 397 wrote:Just for curiosity's sake...I gotta ask this.
Do you feel the issue of barrier-coat vs. no barrier coat is a different animal if the boat is kept in the water year-round as we do on the WC?
Only if there were indications of hydrolysis-based hull problems to begin with. My opinion is that application of a barrier coat as a preventative measure is not only costly and unnecessary, but quite possibly harmful, as has been documented in a number of cases where otherwise sound boats, which were barrier coated "just in case", suddenly developed serious moisture-related hull problems. Meanwhile, there is no evidence to support any claims that a barrier coat is a good thing no matter what--quite the contrary, in fact.
Of course, manufacturers and applicators would like the general public to believe otherwise, as the barrier coat thing is one of the larger cash cows going at this time for the glossy magazine/"yard maintained" crowd.
Some fiberglass hulls are more prone to blistering than others. If one has existing blisters, and therefore must peel or grind significant amounts of gelcoat (and more) away in order to remove the damaged material and dry the surrounding areas, the barrier coat should be applied as part of the repair. However, I don't subscribe to the oft-heard "mantra" that all fiberglass boats will blister--I think certain hulls, for reasons unknown (chemistry, resin makeup, lamination technique, fabric/resin ratio in the laminate, etc.) seem to be at least less susceptible, and possibly effectively immune from the issue. That said, once blistering/hydrolysis is established in a hull, it will most likely continue if left unhecked, and will reappear if not properly repaired (and occasionally even when properly repaired).
Please note that there's a huge difference--not only in cause but also in damaging effect--between the occasional "blisters" that many boats may exhibit after a time in the water, and the widespread hydraulic malady that affects a smaller number of unfortunate craft that have inherent laminate and/or resin problems. Not all blisters are created equal. Small, random ones are fairly common in boats that spend most of their time in the water--particularly warm water. This is not necessarily the same thing as "boatpox", or serious blistering caused by hydrolysis and/or moisture infiltration and osmosis. Random blistering can (and should, in my opinion) be repaired on a case-by-case basis (spot-repaired) as they occur.
In fact, this situation, which leads many frightened boaters to strip their bottoms and apply gooey masses of thick, expensive gray epoxy thinking that they are doing something worthy, is the exact situation in which application of the barrier coat can actually exacerbate what was essentially a natural, minor problem.
Now, instead of that small amount of moisture being able to pass uninhibited in and out of the small air pockets in the hull where it became trapped, it suddenly has nowhere to go--and, water being water, thus inexorably forces its way in the only direction now available: further into the laminate, since it cannot pass through the epoxy under any circumstances.
I would choose to use a barrier coat only as part of a major blister repair. Otherwise, I would not. That's my opinion, based on my own personal take on the information available to me. Others one might choose to ask will likely have a differing opinion, perhaps even with sound reasoning to back it up (and not just the regurgitation of the party line). There's no saying I'm not wrong, but that said, I feel that the practical experiences of others out there are working in my favor at this time. Perhaps I'm just too isloated from the waters where this problem seems more rempant. I freely accept the possibility that I'm wrong, but the information simply isn't there yet for me to change my tune.
I'm not saying blisters, when they occur, should be ignored: they shouldn't. The chemical reaction with styrene that creates more serious blisters can cause some harm to a hull, and therefore these areas should always be broken open, drained, flushed, and dried as needed before repairing with epoxy.
Of course, perhaps you might reconsider and apply the barrier coat anyway, when you factor in the number of serious injuries and/or sailing deaths caused by boat bottom blisters.
Oh, wait: there are none. Unless a boat on jackstands somewhere fell over on the poor sap applying barrier coat to his bottom.
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