It's somewhat heart-warming that people are actually still interested in my bilge. Update to follow shortly.
R.
Edit: Nuts - now that I have time and access to sit down and post, I can't get into the photo server.
The battle of the bilge
Oh, clever tactic!
Has it been that long? See, now it's like the short note you didn't write right away that over time then becomes a six-page letter that you owe.
Alright, I promise to take photos today and then I can add them to what I've already got stowed on the web and make a current update. It's nice that you all are interested.
Rachel
Has it been that long? See, now it's like the short note you didn't write right away that over time then becomes a six-page letter that you owe.
Alright, I promise to take photos today and then I can add them to what I've already got stowed on the web and make a current update. It's nice that you all are interested.
Rachel
Okey-dokey, how about an update.
First of all, I should make clear that I have not been down in the bilge all this time. First, work conspired against me; then I had moving stuff to attend to; then it got horribly, muggily HOT. Let's see, is that it? No wait, I have another excuse too: I can't actually reach the bottom of the bilge, so a co-worker helped me with the bits at the very bottom. Of course when someone is helping, you can't very well demand that they hurry up and get it done....
So, when I last posted, I had all of the silly ingredients taken out of the deep bilge (wood, loose concrete, old gasoline...), and I was trying to decide how to put things back. Ultimately I decided that I didn't like the idea of making a new false bottom in the deep bilge, for various reasons (general principle and future access to the inside of the heel fitting among them), and so I went with the concept of permanently sealing off the after "wall" of the ballast.
As a reminder, here is the deep bilge excavated (this is before the ends were fully "trimmed" and the whole thing was tidied up, but it gives the general idea):
This left me with the after end of the ballast pig exposed. Luckily it was dry and there was no evidence of rust or other detrimental effects, probably thanks to fresh-water living, and the fact that the boat had no regular leaks (there wasn't even a permanent electric bilge pump on the boat). It looks kind of brown and crusty in the picture, but that's some kind of photo-effect.
The vertical rise of this is about 6"-7". The "false bilge" made the whole thing level. The amber layer near the top is a cross-section of the pure resin they poured in as a sealing layer, which of course didn't really work all that well. There was a bit of cloth (or some fiber reinforcement) there, but it wasn't enough.
Further neatening was done by chipping away the concrete from the first inch or so of the ballast pig - back to clean, dry, sound stuff. In this photo, we're looking down and aft. You can see the iron pig protruding aft where the concrete has been chipped away:
So, now on to sealing this properly. As I mentioned above, I decided to seal off the after end of the ballast instead of re-creating the false bilge. First we (and by "we" I mean a co-worker with really long arms) filled in the area where the concrete was chipped back around the ballast with thickened epoxy (after thoroughly cleaning and solventing the area), and then we put in a pre-cut "wall" of green grp board (the McMaster-Carr stuff - it was 1/2", if I remember correctly), mushing that in place as well.
After that, the edges were all filleted, and then the works was tabbed into place with multiple layers of biaxial tape. At the same time, the bilge was smoothed out a bit, and faired the low point was a bit aft of the back edge of the ballast pig. Here's how it looks now. (It really deserves a better photo, but all I have now is this one I took mid-cleaning job, with standing rinse-water in the bilge (but it's not getting to the ballast!):
The next bilge task is to continue the sealing on top of the pig, tabbing it around the corner to connect with this section. Of course this was the most important bit, since it's adjacent to the bottom of the bilge (and under where the engine will be reinstalled), but I want that baby sealed!
On somewhat of a bilge-tangent is the area around the stern tube. This comes from the Alberg factory completely globbed (that was a verb there) in with Thiokol, a grey, pliable, somewhat rubbery caulk. I wasn't sure why it was there, but since I want to clean and paint the whole area while I have the engine out, I decided it had to go. Here is a "before" photo. The caulk had been slightly disturbed at some point in the past - presumably when the new shaft and cutless bearing were put in a number of years ago. The area I'm referring to shows up in this photo right under the blue hacksaw blade (that I had dropped there before removing the engine).
Much laborious chipping and digging (and removing the coupler in anticipation of replacing the cutless bearing) revealed this:
And removed this:
Zooming in a bit; then a bit more:
The remaining flat "shelf" is hard, cured glass, and runs all the way down the "deadwood," to the bottom of the bilge just above the heel fitting (not that you can see that inside the boat). I'm guessing that the caulk was put there simply to "finish off" and shape the area so that water would not sit on the shelf.
My plan is to use thickened epoxy and then cloth to fair a (much smaller) sloped area on that "shelf" to accomplish the same thing, but without masses of rubbery caulk. I don't see any reason to put anything back around the stern/shaft tube, although perhaps a bit of fairing above it. I just want to avoid any potential for standing water, and to end up with a surface that's smooth and paintable. I'll let you know how that goes.
****
Now I'm really getting out of the bilge (but it's all connected!), but since we were just looking at the shaft and stern tube inside the boat, here's the other end of the whole business:
In the spirit of "might as well" - and not intending to remove the engine and coupler again anytime too soon, the propeller is now off and the shaft is out. I've got a new cutless bearing ready to install. If any other A-30ers are wondering, mine was a Johnson "APEX" size.
Another oddity of the Alberg 30 is that the outer diameters of the stern tube and the stuffing box are not the same. So usually folks have put on whatever size hose fits over the stuffing box, and then clamped the heck out of the (smaller) stern tube. Some folks have wrapped the stern tube with saturated glass cloth in order to make them the same diameter.
On my boat the stuffing box hose was made up of wire-reinforced exhaust hose (not correct), and because of the fact that the clamp on the stern-tube end was "gathering up" extra hose, the wires had partially broken through the hose. Ish.
What I'm planning to do at this point (meaning it has to be hemmed and hawed over a bit more) is to machine down the outside of the stuffing box just a hair (it's got a generous amount of material and is also not quite smooth - there are some extra-thick "warbles" of bronze), so that it is extremely close to the same size as the stern tube, and then one size hose will fit both ends. Official stuffing box hose does not come in that exact size, but the high-quality, multi-ply, non-wire-reinforced wet-exhaust hose does, and I think that will be as good.
I'll keep you posted on the progress.
Rachel
First of all, I should make clear that I have not been down in the bilge all this time. First, work conspired against me; then I had moving stuff to attend to; then it got horribly, muggily HOT. Let's see, is that it? No wait, I have another excuse too: I can't actually reach the bottom of the bilge, so a co-worker helped me with the bits at the very bottom. Of course when someone is helping, you can't very well demand that they hurry up and get it done....
So, when I last posted, I had all of the silly ingredients taken out of the deep bilge (wood, loose concrete, old gasoline...), and I was trying to decide how to put things back. Ultimately I decided that I didn't like the idea of making a new false bottom in the deep bilge, for various reasons (general principle and future access to the inside of the heel fitting among them), and so I went with the concept of permanently sealing off the after "wall" of the ballast.
As a reminder, here is the deep bilge excavated (this is before the ends were fully "trimmed" and the whole thing was tidied up, but it gives the general idea):
This left me with the after end of the ballast pig exposed. Luckily it was dry and there was no evidence of rust or other detrimental effects, probably thanks to fresh-water living, and the fact that the boat had no regular leaks (there wasn't even a permanent electric bilge pump on the boat). It looks kind of brown and crusty in the picture, but that's some kind of photo-effect.
The vertical rise of this is about 6"-7". The "false bilge" made the whole thing level. The amber layer near the top is a cross-section of the pure resin they poured in as a sealing layer, which of course didn't really work all that well. There was a bit of cloth (or some fiber reinforcement) there, but it wasn't enough.
Further neatening was done by chipping away the concrete from the first inch or so of the ballast pig - back to clean, dry, sound stuff. In this photo, we're looking down and aft. You can see the iron pig protruding aft where the concrete has been chipped away:
So, now on to sealing this properly. As I mentioned above, I decided to seal off the after end of the ballast instead of re-creating the false bilge. First we (and by "we" I mean a co-worker with really long arms) filled in the area where the concrete was chipped back around the ballast with thickened epoxy (after thoroughly cleaning and solventing the area), and then we put in a pre-cut "wall" of green grp board (the McMaster-Carr stuff - it was 1/2", if I remember correctly), mushing that in place as well.
After that, the edges were all filleted, and then the works was tabbed into place with multiple layers of biaxial tape. At the same time, the bilge was smoothed out a bit, and faired the low point was a bit aft of the back edge of the ballast pig. Here's how it looks now. (It really deserves a better photo, but all I have now is this one I took mid-cleaning job, with standing rinse-water in the bilge (but it's not getting to the ballast!):
The next bilge task is to continue the sealing on top of the pig, tabbing it around the corner to connect with this section. Of course this was the most important bit, since it's adjacent to the bottom of the bilge (and under where the engine will be reinstalled), but I want that baby sealed!
On somewhat of a bilge-tangent is the area around the stern tube. This comes from the Alberg factory completely globbed (that was a verb there) in with Thiokol, a grey, pliable, somewhat rubbery caulk. I wasn't sure why it was there, but since I want to clean and paint the whole area while I have the engine out, I decided it had to go. Here is a "before" photo. The caulk had been slightly disturbed at some point in the past - presumably when the new shaft and cutless bearing were put in a number of years ago. The area I'm referring to shows up in this photo right under the blue hacksaw blade (that I had dropped there before removing the engine).
Much laborious chipping and digging (and removing the coupler in anticipation of replacing the cutless bearing) revealed this:
And removed this:
Zooming in a bit; then a bit more:
The remaining flat "shelf" is hard, cured glass, and runs all the way down the "deadwood," to the bottom of the bilge just above the heel fitting (not that you can see that inside the boat). I'm guessing that the caulk was put there simply to "finish off" and shape the area so that water would not sit on the shelf.
My plan is to use thickened epoxy and then cloth to fair a (much smaller) sloped area on that "shelf" to accomplish the same thing, but without masses of rubbery caulk. I don't see any reason to put anything back around the stern/shaft tube, although perhaps a bit of fairing above it. I just want to avoid any potential for standing water, and to end up with a surface that's smooth and paintable. I'll let you know how that goes.
****
Now I'm really getting out of the bilge (but it's all connected!), but since we were just looking at the shaft and stern tube inside the boat, here's the other end of the whole business:
In the spirit of "might as well" - and not intending to remove the engine and coupler again anytime too soon, the propeller is now off and the shaft is out. I've got a new cutless bearing ready to install. If any other A-30ers are wondering, mine was a Johnson "APEX" size.
Another oddity of the Alberg 30 is that the outer diameters of the stern tube and the stuffing box are not the same. So usually folks have put on whatever size hose fits over the stuffing box, and then clamped the heck out of the (smaller) stern tube. Some folks have wrapped the stern tube with saturated glass cloth in order to make them the same diameter.
On my boat the stuffing box hose was made up of wire-reinforced exhaust hose (not correct), and because of the fact that the clamp on the stern-tube end was "gathering up" extra hose, the wires had partially broken through the hose. Ish.
What I'm planning to do at this point (meaning it has to be hemmed and hawed over a bit more) is to machine down the outside of the stuffing box just a hair (it's got a generous amount of material and is also not quite smooth - there are some extra-thick "warbles" of bronze), so that it is extremely close to the same size as the stern tube, and then one size hose will fit both ends. Official stuffing box hose does not come in that exact size, but the high-quality, multi-ply, non-wire-reinforced wet-exhaust hose does, and I think that will be as good.
I'll keep you posted on the progress.
Rachel
-
dasein668
- Boateg
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:09 am
- Boat Name: Dasein
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton 668
- Location: Portland, Maine
- Contact:
Good to see the progress! Now that you are out of the bilge (and the constraints of using surrogate arms) things should go a little quicker for you!
I had that problem on Dasein as well. I did the "build up the stern-tube diameter with fiberglass" thing. P/O had just filled the gap with 101 or similar!!!!Rachel wrote:Another oddity of the Alberg 30 is that the outer diameters of the stern tube and the stuffing box are not the same. So usually folks have put on whatever size hose fits over the stuffing box, and then clamped the heck out of the (smaller) stern tube. Some folks have wrapped the stern tube with saturated glass cloth in order to make them the same diameter.
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
1) The stuffing box is out of the boat and easy to work on, whereas the stern tube is in the back of the engine compartment (granted, the engine is out, so it's not as bad as it could be - but I feel like I can do neater, more-controlled work on the stuffing box)#218 wrote:Thanks for the update, Rachel. It's really coming along.
Out of curiousity, what makes machining the stuffing box more attractive to you than wrapping the stern tube with fiberglass?
2) The stuffing box "tube" is pretty thick (extra material) and also somewhat irregular (making it even larger than it really is). Machining it would clean it up.
3) I would still have metal on both ends, as opposed to one wrapped end.
Now, none of these are super-compelling reasons, which is why I may go with the wrapping instead. I was thinking that (only) if I could comfortably machine the stuffing box end to match the stern tube AND a standard hose size, I would go that way.
Still open to reasons why this is not a good idea though - bring them on.
I'll see if I can post a photo of the stuffing box end.
Rachel
The boat still smells somewhat (although it's no longer a "bright" gasoline smell, but more of an "old solvent" smell. That being said, it's better.
I believe what's left is just residual, and will go away when I clean and paint, wash curtains, etc. There didn't seem to be any point in doing that yet, since I've been grinding for new seacock bases (I'll cover that elsewhere), and have yet to finish sanding and painting the bilge. I've definitely eliminated the source; the "filler" I pulled out of the "false" bilge was hideous: Saturated wood and concrete dust that smelled to high heaven and was exactly "the smell."
The main settee cushions were ugly and ill fitting, so I removed them a couple of months ago. They were outside for a couple of (dry) weeks, and are now in a well-ventilated shed. They STILL smell! (Luckily the nice, newer v-berth cushions were not stored on the boat.)
Here are photos of the stuffing box that I'm contemplating machining down about 1/16". The hose is the one I took off. The upper end is what was "clamped down" on the smaller-diameter stern tube, and you can see where the clamp bit into the hose, and where the wire has started coming through the hose (between where the two clamps were). I won't use that type of hose again in any case.
I believe what's left is just residual, and will go away when I clean and paint, wash curtains, etc. There didn't seem to be any point in doing that yet, since I've been grinding for new seacock bases (I'll cover that elsewhere), and have yet to finish sanding and painting the bilge. I've definitely eliminated the source; the "filler" I pulled out of the "false" bilge was hideous: Saturated wood and concrete dust that smelled to high heaven and was exactly "the smell."
The main settee cushions were ugly and ill fitting, so I removed them a couple of months ago. They were outside for a couple of (dry) weeks, and are now in a well-ventilated shed. They STILL smell! (Luckily the nice, newer v-berth cushions were not stored on the boat.)
Here are photos of the stuffing box that I'm contemplating machining down about 1/16". The hose is the one I took off. The upper end is what was "clamped down" on the smaller-diameter stern tube, and you can see where the clamp bit into the hose, and where the wire has started coming through the hose (between where the two clamps were). I won't use that type of hose again in any case.
-
rescuesailor
- Rough Carpentry Apprentice
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:28 pm
- Boat Name: SV Christina Louise
- Boat Type: True North 34
- Location: Kingwood, TX
Bilge odors
Rachel,
I can sympathize with you on that smell. I have a simple and easy solution you can try. I have work in the hazardous material remediation business for quite some time. Several years ago a vendor came up with a microbial product that eats hydrocarbons. These bugs are completely natural, (they live in the swaps of LA). I had the same problem when I bought my current project. The boat had a mild steel fuel tank full of diesel that had rusted out. The result was about 18 inches of diesel, water, and I don't know what else. I simply poured the product, (MicroBlaze) into the bilge. The product has a surfactant which helps to draw the smell out of the fiberglass along with the hydrocarbons. This product will not work overnight. It can take days and possibly weeks. In my case the smelly dank and nasty solution in the bilge was completely converted to a clear see through substance, (water) in about three weeks. I had poured the stuff in when I became serious about the purchase. By the time the papers were signed it was done. i currently use MicroBlaze in my bilge all of the time. this keeps the odors away and keeps the bilge clean of oil and other nasties. This stuff will also work in your holding tank. As long as the product has some air and water it will continue to work and keep things going well and smelling nice. You can look up the stuff on the internet or maybe even the local fire Department might have some around. We have been using it for years on oil spills and gasoline leaks to not only remove the slickness on roads but to remediate at the same time.
I can sympathize with you on that smell. I have a simple and easy solution you can try. I have work in the hazardous material remediation business for quite some time. Several years ago a vendor came up with a microbial product that eats hydrocarbons. These bugs are completely natural, (they live in the swaps of LA). I had the same problem when I bought my current project. The boat had a mild steel fuel tank full of diesel that had rusted out. The result was about 18 inches of diesel, water, and I don't know what else. I simply poured the product, (MicroBlaze) into the bilge. The product has a surfactant which helps to draw the smell out of the fiberglass along with the hydrocarbons. This product will not work overnight. It can take days and possibly weeks. In my case the smelly dank and nasty solution in the bilge was completely converted to a clear see through substance, (water) in about three weeks. I had poured the stuff in when I became serious about the purchase. By the time the papers were signed it was done. i currently use MicroBlaze in my bilge all of the time. this keeps the odors away and keeps the bilge clean of oil and other nasties. This stuff will also work in your holding tank. As long as the product has some air and water it will continue to work and keep things going well and smelling nice. You can look up the stuff on the internet or maybe even the local fire Department might have some around. We have been using it for years on oil spills and gasoline leaks to not only remove the slickness on roads but to remediate at the same time.
David
Sorry Britton!
I will officially post that I don't have an update right now. But when I do have something interesting accomplished, I'll add it here.
Assuming everyone else still cares ;)
Rachel
PS Rescue, thanks for the tip on the Micro Blaze. I searched for something like this last year, but just couldn't come up with the right Google combination of terms. Which one of their products do you use?
I will officially post that I don't have an update right now. But when I do have something interesting accomplished, I'll add it here.
Assuming everyone else still cares ;)
Rachel
PS Rescue, thanks for the tip on the Micro Blaze. I searched for something like this last year, but just couldn't come up with the right Google combination of terms. Which one of their products do you use?
-
LazyGuy
- Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
- Posts: 349
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:31 pm
- Boat Name: Paper Moon
- Boat Type: Luders 33 (Allied Boat Co.)
- Location: Mystic CT
Rachel,
I used marine clean on my diesel tank. One gallon (one quart per application, 50/50 with hot water) has cleaned the tank amazingly well. The information on the product tells me that it will do the same on a bilge. It breaks down the diesel so that it is water soluble.
http://www.por15.com/prodinfo.asp?grp=MC&dept=2
I plan on using it in the bilge at 5:1 in the spring when I can rinse it all out afterwards.
I used marine clean on my diesel tank. One gallon (one quart per application, 50/50 with hot water) has cleaned the tank amazingly well. The information on the product tells me that it will do the same on a bilge. It breaks down the diesel so that it is water soluble.
http://www.por15.com/prodinfo.asp?grp=MC&dept=2
I plan on using it in the bilge at 5:1 in the spring when I can rinse it all out afterwards.
Cheers
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
-
rescuesailor
- Rough Carpentry Apprentice
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:28 pm
- Boat Name: SV Christina Louise
- Boat Type: True North 34
- Location: Kingwood, TX
Sorry Rachel but I forgot about the posting on this string due to work in other areas. I actually use the Microblaze product. I know there are others out there that will work but I am most familiar with this one. I think the surfactant and fragrance help this particular product to work well. The key is to keep the product wet and well aerated while it does its job. If your bilge has a tendency to have small amounts of water in it, a capfull of product once in awhile will keep it smelling fresh and clean. If the bilge stays dry mix it up in about a 1/2% solution with fresh water and place in a spray bottle. Spray the bilge area down with a light mist until damp. Leave the product on and let it dry. An added benefit is that it will destroy mold and mildew, cleans drains and even works in the holding tank. Just remember in the tank it you must keep some liquid in the tank and aereate or it will kill the microbes.
David
Hi David,
I was wondering which Micro Blaze product you use, because I went to the website and there were four or so different ones. None stood out as being "the one" for a bilge, so I thought I'd see what had worked for you.
Amazingly, my bilge may be coming out of it's winter hibernation soon, and then I should have an update for this thread (although I know Britton has given up and gone off in a huff ;)
Rachel
I was wondering which Micro Blaze product you use, because I went to the website and there were four or so different ones. None stood out as being "the one" for a bilge, so I thought I'd see what had worked for you.
Amazingly, my bilge may be coming out of it's winter hibernation soon, and then I should have an update for this thread (although I know Britton has given up and gone off in a huff ;)
Rachel
-
rescuesailor
- Rough Carpentry Apprentice
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:28 pm
- Boat Name: SV Christina Louise
- Boat Type: True North 34
- Location: Kingwood, TX
Rachel, use the emergency spill product. The stuff is roughly 25 to 30 dollars a gallon but it mixes at 1/2 percent with water. An added bonus if placed in a 2 1/2 gallon extinguisher it can be readily available for spills and I have put out some small fires with it. That is not recommended however.
David