Hi Tim,
The racing season is winding down and now that I've got the various mast rake, pre-bend, stay, shroud, and D2 tensions worked out I noticed that the baby stay doesn't do much anymore except get in the way. I know it's there to allow easier adjustment of mast bend, but as the PO installed a big Navtec -17 cylinder backstay adjuster to the boat, it's not really needed. Also, since I don't sail or race the boat offshore in bad weather there should be no chance of reversing the masts curve due to mast pumping.
Tim, I know you've raced the C&C 40 a fair bit. Is the baby stay really needed for the type of racing I do on the York river and the lower Chesapeake bay? It sure would be nice to no longer have to loosen it, unclip it, and re-clip it to the mast base every time we round a windward mark.
Your advice is always appreciated,
George
Baby Stay?
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
George,
We always used the babystay when racing. It has a significant effect on mast bend, coupled with the hydraulic backstay that we also had (and vang, too). I think you'll find that it's a useful tool to fine-tune the mainsail draft (specifically to pull it forward). If you just tension the backstay without the forward pressure from the babystay, the mast will tend to bend differently than if there's pressure on the stay. Wind conditions dictate how you should bend the mast, but the babystay definitely helped create a "better", or more generally effective, bend in the mast when the backstay was tensioned.
It also did help steady the mast from pumping, but this was only an issue in a real chop; the original C&C mast section was quite a telephone pole.
How is your babystay set up? Ours was on a longitudinal track forward of the mast, with a block and tackle adjustment on the deck. It was pretty easy to kick free and release, and similarly easy to set up. There was no need to unclip the stay or do anything but release the tension on the block and tackle.
Now, all this being said, your own experiences may be different. You probably don't strictly need the stay. Just be sure you haven't discounted its benefits first.
We always used the babystay when racing. It has a significant effect on mast bend, coupled with the hydraulic backstay that we also had (and vang, too). I think you'll find that it's a useful tool to fine-tune the mainsail draft (specifically to pull it forward). If you just tension the backstay without the forward pressure from the babystay, the mast will tend to bend differently than if there's pressure on the stay. Wind conditions dictate how you should bend the mast, but the babystay definitely helped create a "better", or more generally effective, bend in the mast when the backstay was tensioned.
It also did help steady the mast from pumping, but this was only an issue in a real chop; the original C&C mast section was quite a telephone pole.
How is your babystay set up? Ours was on a longitudinal track forward of the mast, with a block and tackle adjustment on the deck. It was pretty easy to kick free and release, and similarly easy to set up. There was no need to unclip the stay or do anything but release the tension on the block and tackle.
Now, all this being said, your own experiences may be different. You probably don't strictly need the stay. Just be sure you haven't discounted its benefits first.
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George ( C&C 40 )
Baby Stay?
Hi Tim,
I have the exact setup you describe right down to the hydraulic vang. I'm not sure what kind of spinnaker pole you had but the spinnaker pole setup I use is a captive socket design for dip-gybing with a 14 or so foot track up the face of the mast. The control lines for the track car on the mast are of the continueous loop design and require me to stand directly in front of the mast and face it while hauling the car up and down. As I haul the pole up or down the mast I'm always standing on or tripping over the baby stay where it clips into the longitudinal track -- Even after the baby stay is released and kicked toward the mast. That's one reason I started releasing and uncliping the baby stay before we hit the turning mark -- if it's cliped to the side base of the mast, I no longer trip on it and it's not in the way of either the pole or other lines on the foredeck. After forgetting to re-clip the baby stay on the weather leg a few times I've noticed that our performance was exactly the same. This is when I started to think that the baby stay wasn't doing much for me.
I carry 8" of mast rake, 3" of pre-bend, 3200lbs in the forestay, 3000lbs in the backstay, 3100lbs in the cap shrouds, 2000lbs in the lowers, and 1800lbs in the D2's. ( note : the D2's are -12 rod, all the rest is -17 rod ) With this setup the mast bends nicely to 5000lbs if I need to flatten the main with the backstay adjuster -- if that doesn't make it, I change out the headsail. With this setup the deepest part of the curve appears to be at the attachment point of the baby stay whether the baby stay is attached or not. Once again, it doesn't appear to be doing much. Also, I've never seen the mast pump when tensioned for racing but, then again, most of the races I enter won't race if it's blowing over 25 knots. :-(
All that being said, I would hate to lose the mast over the side one day because the baby stay really IS important. For example, if there is something I'm not thinking about that could cause the mast to invert and then shatter ( or at least split ). Note : I do have one of the original telephone pole type masts -- it takes ten yard guys to carry the thing, a real monster!
As always, your experience and input is greatly appreciated,
George
I have the exact setup you describe right down to the hydraulic vang. I'm not sure what kind of spinnaker pole you had but the spinnaker pole setup I use is a captive socket design for dip-gybing with a 14 or so foot track up the face of the mast. The control lines for the track car on the mast are of the continueous loop design and require me to stand directly in front of the mast and face it while hauling the car up and down. As I haul the pole up or down the mast I'm always standing on or tripping over the baby stay where it clips into the longitudinal track -- Even after the baby stay is released and kicked toward the mast. That's one reason I started releasing and uncliping the baby stay before we hit the turning mark -- if it's cliped to the side base of the mast, I no longer trip on it and it's not in the way of either the pole or other lines on the foredeck. After forgetting to re-clip the baby stay on the weather leg a few times I've noticed that our performance was exactly the same. This is when I started to think that the baby stay wasn't doing much for me.
I carry 8" of mast rake, 3" of pre-bend, 3200lbs in the forestay, 3000lbs in the backstay, 3100lbs in the cap shrouds, 2000lbs in the lowers, and 1800lbs in the D2's. ( note : the D2's are -12 rod, all the rest is -17 rod ) With this setup the mast bends nicely to 5000lbs if I need to flatten the main with the backstay adjuster -- if that doesn't make it, I change out the headsail. With this setup the deepest part of the curve appears to be at the attachment point of the baby stay whether the baby stay is attached or not. Once again, it doesn't appear to be doing much. Also, I've never seen the mast pump when tensioned for racing but, then again, most of the races I enter won't race if it's blowing over 25 knots. :-(
All that being said, I would hate to lose the mast over the side one day because the baby stay really IS important. For example, if there is something I'm not thinking about that could cause the mast to invert and then shatter ( or at least split ). Note : I do have one of the original telephone pole type masts -- it takes ten yard guys to carry the thing, a real monster!
As always, your experience and input is greatly appreciated,
George
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
If you're not seeing mast movment without the stay, then it's probably unnecessary for that purpose. And if you see no effect on you sail shape with or without the stay, then I agree that it's unnecessary.
I remember the stay being able to pull that portion of the mast just a bit more forward, particularly in lighter airs when other adjustments might be looser, and therefore having an effect on the shape of the main. Boat setups are so different that it may have less effect for you. As it was, it was a subtle effect, but noticeable.
All extraneous rigging (babystays, inner forestays, runners, etc.) can be a real pain sometimes, for sure. It's quite possible that you don't need it, given the setup you've described.
I think it's pretty unlikely that you'd ever lose the spar, given its dimensions and general setup, just because of the babystay, particularly in bay sailing. Note that the stay might be useful to keep the mast in column on very heavy wind downwind legs with the spinnaker set; the inward push on that pole can reverse the column in some instances. Probably not on a C&C 40 spar, and not in the type of sailing you're doing.
If it's not a useful fine-tuning adjustment tool, then get rid of it. You can always put it back easily--it's just a t-shaped tang fitting at the top.
I remember the stay being able to pull that portion of the mast just a bit more forward, particularly in lighter airs when other adjustments might be looser, and therefore having an effect on the shape of the main. Boat setups are so different that it may have less effect for you. As it was, it was a subtle effect, but noticeable.
All extraneous rigging (babystays, inner forestays, runners, etc.) can be a real pain sometimes, for sure. It's quite possible that you don't need it, given the setup you've described.
I think it's pretty unlikely that you'd ever lose the spar, given its dimensions and general setup, just because of the babystay, particularly in bay sailing. Note that the stay might be useful to keep the mast in column on very heavy wind downwind legs with the spinnaker set; the inward push on that pole can reverse the column in some instances. Probably not on a C&C 40 spar, and not in the type of sailing you're doing.
If it's not a useful fine-tuning adjustment tool, then get rid of it. You can always put it back easily--it's just a t-shaped tang fitting at the top.
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George ( C&C 40 )
Baby Stay?
Hi Tim,
Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it. I'm glad I asked because it neve occured to me that there is going to be a huge amount of force pushing back on the mast where the spinnaker pole attaches. I think what I'll do is remove the baby stay and keep it coiled up on the boat. I have a climbing harness on board ad it's real easy for me to go up and down the mast -- all I do is lead a halyard forward to the electric windless, a button is pushed and away I go. I could probably re-attach the thing from scratch in less than five minutes if it looks like I'm going to need it. I guess I could just leave the thing cliped to the mast base but that huge loose cable banging around might mess up my newly AwlGripped mast :-)
Thanks again for everything,
George Jones
"Delphinus"
Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it. I'm glad I asked because it neve occured to me that there is going to be a huge amount of force pushing back on the mast where the spinnaker pole attaches. I think what I'll do is remove the baby stay and keep it coiled up on the boat. I have a climbing harness on board ad it's real easy for me to go up and down the mast -- all I do is lead a halyard forward to the electric windless, a button is pushed and away I go. I could probably re-attach the thing from scratch in less than five minutes if it looks like I'm going to need it. I guess I could just leave the thing cliped to the mast base but that huge loose cable banging around might mess up my newly AwlGripped mast :-)
Thanks again for everything,
George Jones
"Delphinus"