Cockpit coaming replacement

galleywench · Post by **galleywench** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:20 am

Hi all,
Just getting started on my Alberg 35 refit this year and I'm in the process of stripping the deck of all hardware including toerail and cockpit coamings. The coamings are proving very difficult to remove as they are through bolted to the cockpit and I suspect they may have been installed before the deck was mated with the hull (or it was assembled by people < 2 feet tall). I'm not sure if this was standard practice for these boats, but after a huge struggle, I was able to get all the nuts off the backside of the coaming (from inside the lazarette). Unfortunately, I know there is NO way I can replace the nuts when I put the new coamings on. I am hoping to actually get the coamings off tomorrow, but I am still working on the winch blocks.
I noticed that many of the refits I have seen here are using self tapping screws (or maybe predrilled) and grommits so removal is a simple matter of unscrewing from the comfort of the cockpit. I want to do the same, but I have a few questions:
1. Is the substrate where the coamings attach typically cored or is it solid glass?
2. If it's cored, how do you keep water from entering through the screw holes? Are you potting the area where the screws are entering?

I think that's it for now... Lots more questions to come, this forum is great, I wish I had found it sooner.

Thanks
-matt

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:48 am

I don't know the cockpit combing installation on an Alberg first hand, but I would suspect there is no coring in the glass where it is attached. Coring is used to add structural integrity to spans of fiberglass surfaces. This area is not a span.

As to whether self tappers or such would be sufficient will depend a lot on how much strain on the fasteners occurs in drawing the combing to conform to the curve and hold it there, how many fasteners you use, and whether you can force and temporarily secure the curve prior to fastening. I used self tappers for my Renegade combing, but I was able to clamp the the combings to the curve prior to installing the screws. This meant that no load was placed on the screws until all were in place and they could work together.

I am a big fan of what I call a "dry fit". This is where the actual piece being installed is positioned in place with no means of fastening, bedding, adhesive or what ever will be used for the final installation. In the case of combings and toe rails this not only verifies the fit, but gives first hand indications of the loads the bending will place on the fastening method. This may help a lot in determining whether screws alone will be enough, and what methods you can use for forcing the curve and holding it during fastening.

Consider also using a couple of types of fasteners. If you can through bolt in some places then maybe you should do so there and use screws where you can't. If you can clamp the pieces, or use wedges, support sticks etc, then maybe an adhesive bedding and fasteners can be used together by leaving the temporary stuff in place until after the adhesive cures. It is sometimes surprising what can be learned during the dry fit. It is a step worth taking.

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:54 pm

I took the coamings off my CheoyLee last year to rebuild and refinish them. I live in the frozen North so I decided to make them easily removeable for future jobs. The side coamings are are just connected by machine screws into tapped holes in the fiberglass. The curved aft piece has nuts that I can access from the lazerette. I did not bung the screws and while it may not be quite as pretty with screw heads exposed it does look seamanlike.
Best regards, David

galleywench · Post by **galleywench** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:51 pm

I'm not quite so North, but certainly frozen. I want to do the same, I am really tired of having to spend my springtime stripping and revarnishing everything. With the exception of the new toerail, I plan on removing all brightwork and keeping it inside for the winter.

I did the same thing with an Ariel that I owned from '96 - '99, but I don't remember the coamings being such a bear to remove. I was able to finally remove all the bolts from the port coaming today, but it really doesn't want to part from the boat. I didn't want to resort to brute force and I was getting frustrated, so I quit for the day. Since I really can't get started with the recore project until it's warmer, I am taking my time with the removal and cataloging of all deck hardware.

I am hoping that once the new toerail goes on and I get > 8 -10 coats of varnish, it will be more of a maintenance issue than a full bore project when springtime comes. I should be able to just bolt everything on and touch up the toerail. When I bought the boat in 2000, the varnish was in marginal condition and the toerail was showing its age. Each spring I would find new areas where the varnish lifted off the rail and I would have to remove the failed section and build it back up. The last 2 years I ended up stripping the whole rail down and starting from scratch. It just isn't fun anymore.

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:55 pm

I hear you on the toerails! I need to remove and rebed mine. I'm not planning on replacing them but it will need a couple graving pieces on the one side. I gave up trying to varnish mine a couple years ago and left them bare. Handrails are bare too. The rest of the brightwork has Epiphanes. I did have a name of some "wonder oil" that is used on gym floors that I wanted to try but I lost the link when my hard drive crashed last summer :( I envy guys who live in places with early, dry springs...
Best regards,
David

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:33 am

I'm dreading the same work on Quetzal, a LeComte NE 38. Their coamings were about 1" thick when new and mine are down to 3/4" or so. Ours are attached from behind, in the lazarettes, but with screws. There's a large faying surface between wood and fiberglass which is bedded in butyl sealant.

A NE 38's coamings are one piece of teak, about 14" wide at the forward end and 8" at the aft. They are notched up and on top of the decks fore and aft, thus creating a stess concentration which at the aft end is unsupported (cracked on Quetzal). They are restrained from cracking, in the wider areas, in two places with drifts. They are deeply curved and flared. This means to me that the coaming stock was roughed out from tried and true patterns and steamed. LeComte would have had a port and a starboard form all ready with clamps and the forms would have been more deeply curved than the required shape to account for springback after cooling. Even so, the luck and skill required, not to mention the speed and force, and the expensive pieces of wood, would make this difficult.

Arranging all this on a one off basis will be a pain. I've considered laminating the things up out with 1/4" teak face 'veneer', which would be easier for an amateur, and would have enough meat to allow years of refinishing as well as allowing inner veneers giving transverse fiber to prevent cracking. The edge could receive a cap which the current ones have at the forward third.

Once the pieces are the right shape, and as Hirilonde says, with dry fits, a little suffering in the lazarettes refastening will see the job through.

galleywench · Post by **galleywench** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:04 am

Quetzalsailor wrote: A NE 38's coamings are one piece of teak, about 14" wide at the forward end and 8" at the aft. They are notched up and on top of the decks fore and aft, thus creating a stess concentration which at the aft end is unsupported (cracked on Quetzal).

Sounds like the same or similar arrangement on the A35. One of the reasons I want to replace is the stress crack on both. Fortunately the curve appears to be doable with a little dry fitting and brute force.
I did finally get one of the coamings off before it got just too cold to work outside. Just to make sure it was a bear, after I managed to get all the backing nuts off from the inside, I found that the coaming wouldn't budge. I thought maybe the bedding compound was cementing the thing on but I decided to knock out one of the screw bungs and pull out one of the screws, only to find that the screws were tapped through the sidewall and sealed with some sort of silicon (or whatever they used in '62). I did manage to finally back all of them out, but I am amazed that I didn't strip the flathead screw on several of them; they were in there REALLY tight.

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:58 pm

My aft cockpit coaming was in very bad shape. It was made of 3 laminations of 1/4" teak to fit the curve of the cockpit. I took it apart last spring and replaced the top layer with a new piece. I made a form and used about 35 clamps to laminate it up with epoxy. Lots of fun!! Teak is so expensive around here that I try to repair rather than replace if at all possible. Perhaps you could do something similar on Quetzal. Repair the split and add a 1/4" layer. Depending on the colour, and condition of your pieces it may be advantageous to add it to the back of the piece. That way you could use narrower pieces that would be a) cheaper and b) not as likely to split. If the backside is mostly hidden you could almost "strip plank" it and no one would be the wiser... Best regards, David

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:23 pm

Shoal, You might find it fun to drive over to Halifax and see Portuguese Cove.

I had mulled laminating 1/4" onto my toerails. Top edge would be problematic with the bolt bungs and the ovaling, though.

Hadn't thought about following my own advice for the coamings.

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:56 am

I wouldn't mind sometime. I keep my boat 30 minutes south of there so go by regularly. Unfortunately, I'm either in a rush to get there or to get home. I do find that watching others slaving away on their boats is very therapeutic...

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:47 pm

If you'd like to come by and watch me freeze while building a boat shed this weekend, you're more than welcome! Or any other time, of course.

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:19 pm

Thanks Chris. I think I'll wait for it to warm up a bit first. I've been stripping varnish off of locker doors today. Every once in a while I aim the heat gun at me! -37C with the wind. Gross... Best of luck with the shed, David