Cetol info

[Brodie]

Nearly all of the extensive teak on my boat is Cetol'ed (except for the cabin doors and tiller). I haven't touched it since I bought the boat and it is starting to weather in a few places. It's also the orangey stuff, and combined with the raised grain on the teak it looks pretty awful. I'd like to refinish but the wood is so worn down after 40+ years that I don't think i can sand everything flat without making some pieces like the coamings too thin. In some places the teak has been worn down 1/8" or so. I think there are newer Cetol products that aren't as orange, right? What would be the best way to remove the old Cetol? It would appear that I should stick with a satin finish because my teak's not smooth. Any suggestions?

[Ryan]

Obviously, nothing beats varnish, but I have used the newer Cetol Natural Teak on some old trim, and I really like it. Not as much as varnish, but varnish down here won't last the summer without being covered. The Natural Teak doesn't have the characteristic orange tint of the other Cetol products, at least not to my eye.

[Duncan]

I've seen the "Natural Teak" on a friend's boat, and I'd second that. It looked decent enough that I'm 'thinking about it' myself, at least for the toerail.

I'd see how far you can get with a heat gun and a stiff putty knife or scraper, first. It seems to me Cetol goes on fairly thick, and that way you could get the worst of it off before you have to start sanding?

[Chris Campbell]

I'll third the recommendation for "Natural Teak" - it doesn't have the orange, and when compared with a year-old varnish job, it looks pretty good. It can also be covered with a Cetol gloss top coat which improves the gloss, if you want it.

As far as prep goes, a heat gun and scraper will work - but if the teak is weathered that much it might not get into the grain and remove what's there. I found that my toerails were very easy to sand down once the Cetol had failed on them - easier than heat gunning and scraping, if you can believe it. If I were you I'd give sanding with 80 or 100 grit a shot before you try anything else - you might find it goes really quickly. If not (if the Cetol is in better shape than mine was, or there are other parameters that I'm not aware of), then the heat gun is a good way to go.

Good luck - and of course submit pictures when you're able (both of the pre- and post-, preferably...)

[Rachel]

I can't comment on the Cetol, but on the subject of the grooved teak I'm thinking aloud here:

You're saying it's so deeply grooved that if you sand it flat it will be too thin in spots, however, isn't it that thin in those spots already? And isn't a piece of wood only as good as its thinnest point (in a way)?

I'm just wondering if there's a good reason to keep the thicker parts, if they're only "high spots." My inclination would be to just get it over with and make the wood flat, but that may not be correct.

Is there a value in partially flattening it but not completely? I feel like varnish needs a flat surface, but as you say, maybe Cetol is more forgiving that way.

Perhaps the someone more expert in wood than me will comment on this. I know Tom Young had a nice article in Good Old Boat a number of years ago about flattening wood prior to (in that case) re-varnishing.

Rachel

[Hirilondë]

You're saying it's so deeply grooved that if you sand it flat it will be too thin in spots, however, isn't it that thin in those spots already? And isn't a piece of wood only as good as its thinnest point (in a way)?

From a stuctural point of view, that is correct.

I'm just wondering if there's a good reason to keep the thicker parts, if they're only "high spots." My inclination would be to just get it over with and make the wood flat, but that may not be correct.

Yup, and if it proves that the wood is too thin now, it already was, you just didn't know it, or didn't want to admit it. The damage is done, might as well find out if it is salvageable or not right now.

[David VanDenburgh]

What would be the best way to remove the old Cetol? It would appear that I should stick with a satin finish because my teak's not smooth. Any suggestions?

We recently removed all of the Cetol on our Cape Dory 36. A quality scraper and a heat gun are, without question, the most effective tools for removing Cetol, provided it's a relatively smooth surface. I used a run-of-the-mill heat gun from Ace Hardware on the high setting, held about 3" from the teak. Heating a section of a few inches (of, say, toe rail) at a time worked best. Applying heat until the Cetol just began to bubble and lift, then scraping immediately in long, smooth strokes worked great. The trick seemed to be heating only as much Cetol as I could scrape before it cooled down. Once the Cetol was removed, a treatment of Te-ka teak cleaner did wonders to clean up the wood.

[Rachel]

David,

Is the Alberg 30 project linked to in your signature Tradewinds? I've been following that project and I thought it was a "liner" boat (second generation), with the liner removed; whereas I thought your Tradewinds was a non-liner, first-generation boat.

Rachel

(And if that's not Tradewinds, how is she coming along?)

[David VanDenburgh]

Thanks, Rachel, for catching that. The link is wrong - too many Alberg 30 projects on blogger. I've corrected it. It should be: http://alberg30project.blogspot.com/. How embarrassing.

And, yes, my A30 is a '64 - i.e., liner-free.

PS - I only wish I could claim that kind of progress! You'll see that my blog hasn't been updated since 2006.

[Rachel]

Yes, that guy is really trucking along, isn't he? I remember when he bought that boat on eBay, as a completely gutted shell - even the liner was gone, if I remember correctly.

You never how it's going to go when someone takes on a project that that large and daunting, but he's trucking right along (he does have a killer work space and lots of fabulous tools and people to noodle ideas around with).

I'm going to post the link to that one here, now that it's not on your signature, just in case people want to see it:

www.alberg30.blogspot.com

And yeah, I have noticed that your project stalled a bit. But hey, that's not even your main boat! I know you're probably doing plenty on Ariel too, to keep her spiffy. (I remember her as a very pretty Cape Dory.) So it's not surprising that the A-30 is a wee bit back-burnered.

Rachel

[Tim]

I think one reaches a point with old wood on old boats where the choices boil down to either learning to accept and live with some of the wear and imperfections, or replace the wood entirely--particularly when wear and tear, weathering, and previous cleaning and refinishing efforts have left the wood much thinner than original.

Each individual case will determine the course of action, but worn, grooved, over-scrubbed and neglected wood can be very tough to satisfactorily bring back to life. It reaches a certain point where one starts having to make compromises, either in thickness, smoothness, or overall appearance, or else start fresh with new wood if that's the appearance you're hoping for.

[Brodie]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I don't think the heat gun and scraper idea would work on the coamings, although there are some smaller bits that are smoother that would probably be OK. The idea that the wood is only as strong as the thinnest point does make sense. Not sure if it's worth the effort of sanding off 1/8" of teak from both sides of two 11' long coamings, though, but I can't even imagine how much it would cost to replace a piece of wood like that now. Here are some pics that show the coamings a little more closely:

View of the coaming showing the grooves. Toerail is much better:

This gives a decent picture of how grooved the coamings are as well as an idea of how long they are (they are about 11' by 1' tall):

Here you can see the original surface of the teak that was under the old winch bases....nice and smooth!

[Tim]

The other problem with wood that's weathered (and/or been scrubbed over the years) the way your coamings have is that the grain standing proud is much harder than the grain in between, and will be tough to sand smooth as a result.

There's no harm in trying. See where it takes you.

[Ric in Richmond]

+1 for Cetol natural Teak on Andiamo.

[David]

If you have access to a planner, and assuming your coaming boards are removeable, you could run them thru a planner. I don't think that would take enough off to weaken the wood considering how it is fastened in the cockpit.

Good luck,

David

[Brodie]

Hmm. That would be no, and no. Well, they probably are removable, but there are dozens of bunged screws attaching the coamings on both the inside and outside. But that would solve the problem quickly!

Maybe I'll just tackle the toerails this year....those are really looking bad and are relatively smooth. We'll see....everything might just stay the way it is. It looks fine if I'm sailing by you....

[earlylight]

I agree that pulling the coaming boards and running them through a planer is the way to go unless they are being replaced with new wood. As far as the Cetol goes, I used to varnish all my exterior teak and I will admit nothing looks quite as nice as varnish. BUT.......I would rather sail than be a slave to the varnishing as I'm not getting any younger. Not having the luxary of either inside or covered storage for Early Light, I found that by the time it was warm enough to varnish in the spring we were right in the middle of the pollen season. As a result, I gave in to Cetol for the exterior teak. Still use varnish for the interior and the entire interior of my Sabre is teak or teak veneer with the exception of the overhead whiich is GRP. I switched to the new Cetol Natural Teak 2 years ago and find it much nicer looking than the older Cetol formulas. The attached photo is not the best, but I think you can see that the Cetol has held up pretty well for a 2 year old finish and it is not nearly as orange as the older stuff. The grain actually shows through the new formula.
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[Quetzalsailor]

I've begun moving over to the veiled side. Going from Epiphanes which has served me very poorly, to Cetol Teak with their gloss overcoat. Too early to know whether it will have been a good move. An article in Cruising World about folks who overcoat their Epiphanes every three months in the tropics just about says it all!

We have some few areas on the coamings which were deeply grooved. I judged these to have been particularly soft portions of the grain; most of the area did not have that appearance. When I wooded the coamings, I simply left the old varnish in the groove and overcoated with Epiphanes. The dark stripe was not objectionable: looked like wood. The subsequent premature failure of the Epiphanes did not occur there.

Judging by your photos, some PO had left the Teak natural; some later PO scrubbed and varnished. I'd try to avoid disassembling the boat to plane the wood; if that's the solution, I'd put new wood back. The planed planks would be as much as 1/4" thinner than original, and like my 40 year old coamings, susceptible to cracking for lack of enough remaining meat.

I'd scrape and sand, quitting when the deeper varnish stripes were, say, less than 1/4 of the area of fresh wood. Wipe with thinner to get a sense of whether you'll be satisfied with the stripes. Subsequent coats of varnish and age will tend to make the appearance even less stark.