After 10 years, it's time to wood boats cabin sides.

[Tom Young]

The varnish is giving up at the same time a couple of the large ports are weeping just a bit.
The ports were set in Boatlife Life caulk in a mahogany color. Easy to work with, if messy. It takes a few days for it to set up. Reasonably good for this as 10 years is about time for revarnishing so best to rebed ports as well.

The covering board on the joint between cabin and deck was also bedded in Lifecaulk. That failed sooner. It appears water wicked up from the deck joint and then behind the trim working under varnish, into screw holes. The surfaces behind the covering board were wet when I easily removed the piece, little adhesion left in the life caulk.

I think I was too light on the amount though back 10 years ago and now know, you need enough compound to squeeze out fully at cabin and deck. I had many voids at the base to allow water to work into the joint.

However, the actual joint between the wood cabin and deck (the deck has an upturning flange that the cabin is fastened to), under the covering board, I believe I used 3M 4200 white. This joint looks like new and still adhering to mahogany and glass, is still pliable and I have no leaks. But I don't think this is available in colors other than white/black.

So I need to cut new trim pieces around the windows (I reused them last time but it's time to cut new ones) and will rebed the glass, trim, covering board, for a good 10 more years.

I nearly have the cabinsides wooded (varnish is so easy to remove, thankfully), a couple dutchmen patches to fit, a few bungs, a finish sanding and then a few sealer coats before I replace the ports and trim board.

So what should I use for a compound today? Same thing, do a better job applying?

[Hirilondë]

Do the fixed lights go in from the outside and held in by some rather dainty wooden stops?

If so, I like to use Lifecaulk between the glass and cabin and Dolfinite between the trims and the glass. If you are using polycarbonate or acrylic instead of safety glass, then some other bedding besides a polysulfide is called for. The life caulk is slightly adhesive and creates a good seal, the Dolfinite makes removing the trims next time easy and helps avoid breaking the pieces in the process

By the way, just for the record: A cover board is the outermost board that makes up the deck on a wooden boat. It covers the shear plank.

[Tom Young]

Thanks Dave, that makes sense. I'm getting some advice from the wooden boat yard in town, Rockport Marine. They did these a couple years ago, very nice work! They used brads instead of screws, means you probably won't be removing the window trim but cutting it again. This is a K Aage Nielsen design that I think Paul Luke built in the 60's.


I've removed the trim once with heat and patience. It may well have been sealed with Dolphinite before I bought the boat. I'm concerned the seal on the outside should be a good one and last at least 10 years.

It will help when I get to cutting the trim out.

[Hirilondë]

Does a cross-section of the port trims look like:



that?

If so, then you will find the time or expense to make new ones is quite extensive. It is also dangerous to make. I would seriously reconsider and use screws. Between using screws and Dolfinite you have a much greater chance to remove and reuse them next time re-bedding is an issue. I used #4 x 5/8' bronze oval head screws for the 2 jobs I did. The time spent drilling counter sink holes and using the screws, vs brads was nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[Quetzalsailor]

I think the Nielson stops would be relatively easy with a bandsaw and a router; they look as though a rectangular section was made that was then rounded over.

More complexity in the section would simply mean that you have to own/access a shaper made for the purpose of making curved mouldings. We work with this company and Steve would have no problem making a complex moulding which would fit a curved opening: http://www.historicdoors.com/index.html He's doing a stunner for us now where all four sides of the stained glass window are swooping. The stops are moulded, just like this side.

I would install my new stops with screws, too. I think a little more research needs to be done for sealants. I'd want the thing to stay sealed but to come apart again at next bedding.

[Tom Young]

I think the Nielson stops would be relatively easy with a bandsaw and a router; they look as though a rectangular section was made that was then rounded over.

More complexity in the section would simply mean that you have to own/access a shaper made for the purpose of making curved mouldings. We work with this company and Steve would have no problem making a complex moulding which would fit a curved opening: http://www.historicdoors.com/index.html He's doing a stunner for us now where all four sides of the stained glass window are swooping. The stops are moulded, just like this side.

I would install my new stops with screws, too. I think a little more research needs to be done for sealants. I'd want the thing to stay sealed but to come apart again at next bedding.

Wow! Those are complex moudings. Those on the Nielsen are in fact simply a rectangle with a rounded profile on one edge. The Alden trim has a slight bevel on the inside face which I intend to copy. No trouble on the straights of course to cut that bevel on the table saw and run it through the joiner with some jigs to hold it.

I plan to cut the corners out on the band saw simply at 90 degrees, sand/shape the outside edge with a disk or belt. Then set the table on my drill press to that bevel (10 degrees or so?) with a sanding drum for the inside. A template to give a line for the bevel might help too.

It takes a little knack I would think to hold the correct tangent as you rotate the corner as you drum it. I tried one for fun, it was pretty easy. Then a quick pass on a router table for the bead shape.

In place, a final sanding should join the corners into the straights near seamlessly.

The question is the sealant. I posted this same question on the Woodenboat site and have had quite a bit of good advice. I think I now understand (thanks to all advice) the pros and cons involved.

I am still waiting for a good time to talk the the folks at Rockport Marine. That plus the amount of work it takes to make the trim, will make for an easier decision I think on both the sealant and screws/brads.

Thanks everyone, I'll let you know what I do, soon.

[Hirilondë]

I think it is rather humorous that most times there are leak issues the bedding is blamed. Dolfinite and its boatyard bedding predecessors have been around for hundreds of years and are still one of the best beddings for wood made. If the pieces are fragile, and taking them apart is inevitable, then it is my opinion that it is the best. My guess is that most of the problems incurred by the buyers of used boats are in the workmanship of the PO or the yard he/she hired, or even the manufacturer, and not in the bedding used. That is, unless silicone was the bedding. My advice is to carefully consider the needed characteristics for the bedding in any situation and find the one that meets them best. It is not the same choice for all situations.

Quality should be defined in terms of meeting the requirements of the situation.

[Tom Young]

I'm getting an education in bedding compounds, fasteners, glass, etc. As we know, there's more than one right way to do anything. I spent some time talking to a few folks at Rockport Marine. They're pretty sure Life Caulk was used on most applications like this. Sometimes they use Life Seal with silicone but avoid it for the issues of paint and varnish.

In the meantime, the cabin is wooded, flat sanded and sealed with a thinned coat of varnish. I'll get at least one more thinned coat on, especially all the glass rabbets, before the glass goes back in. After 50 years, the cabin is still in good shape. I'm careful when I take off varnish. I try to leave the surface flatter than it was before. I think I've improved it this "wooding" without removing too much stock.


I've started cutting out the trim pieces. I cleated a couple of pine boards together and clamped them through holes to the cabin sides to bend to the shape. Traced the outer rabbet edge onto the boards, uncleated and cut the shape out on the band saw. The ports are not symmetrical so two jigs are needed.

I've used the cut out to trace the outer line of the corner trim pieces. Once cut, a compass traced along this cut set to 3/8" places the inner cut line. I also trace a line at 1/4". After cutting the 3/8" line, on the drilll press with a drum sander chucked in, with the table set to 10 degrees, and keeping the proper tangent, I'm taking stock off to the 1/4" line. That brings the corner pieces into the same profile as my straight stock, 3/4" wide x 3/8" thick with a 10 degree bevel.

Then it's a matter of hand sanding to fair the outer edge to fit the jig, hand sanding to fit the bead profile on the straights, cutting and fitting tightly. The 10 degree bevel gives nice depth to the ports and the bead, which will be proud of the cabin 1/4" gives a nice crisp detail. I've taken the bead (hand sanding to shape) to about 75% and will finish it in place after the compound dries.

Getting started on this trim has helped me decide what to do, with this task in mind sometime in the future.

I'm leaning toward Life Caulk, done correctly this time,... (all wood well sealed, enough applied for a full squeeze out all around) and brads.

[earlylight]

Wow Tom, I'm impressed with the workmanship. I think the finished product will be beautiful. Can't wait to see photos when you finish.

[Quetzalsailor]

Wow! Outstanding work!

Since you're having such fun, and you've solved all the problems and made the jigs, maybe you should make a spare set of stops...for next time if you're thinking these are sacrificial because of the brads. Maybe you do not have to brad the inside corners. Maybe you can predrill for all the brads so that they are parallel and thus pryable. I think I'd screw 'em.

Just hating to see all that work...

As for glazing those big ports, perhaps you might consider having them made anew in safety glass, the kind with the butyl interlayer. They'd be more likely to stay in place if cracked, unlike tempered glass which kernels to reduce damage to the person passing through.

I've made enough pieces of Mahogany plywood for my FD project that I'm thinking I'd lay up my own trim rings for Quetzal. I'd have to find a source of thick enough Makore veneer (make it, I suppose, all you can buy is a worthless 1/42") for the show surface; the rest could be 1/16" Mahogany veneer which I have heaps of.

[Tom Young]

As for glazing those big ports, perhaps you might consider having them made anew in safety glass, the kind with the butyl interlayer. They'd be more likely to stay in place if cracked, unlike tempered glass which kernels to reduce damage to the person passing through..

Thanks Dick! Doug, you mention glass. I went to my neighborhood Camden Glass with the ports. I've worked with Nelson several times so I caught him first thing in the morning to pick his brain.

He studied the plate glass I brought in. A little scratched around the edges from sand paper over the years. After a bit he spotted tiny dimples on the end of each pane and determined the glass was tempered. Those little dimples were from the tonges they used to pull the glass out of the ovens. (Nelson knows is glass) He took a piece of tempered out of the bin and wailed on the edge very hard until it finally broke. I was impressed. Research I found said the tempered was about 5 times stronger than regular plate.

He recommended safety glass with the layer between for the same reasons you mentioned. They cut alot of it for boats here, mostly lobster boats, but also small boat ports. Thing is, it's not as strong as the same thickness as regular plate glass. But Nelson figures you'll capsize before the glass is broken (Nelson don't know waves :) ) But the deal was;;;; all 4 large D windows plus 5 small ports would have cost me 300.00. I was tempted, it would be clear to look through. Tempered on the other hand, each piece would need to be cut first then sent out to be tempered. More than twice the price. The scratches around the edges began to grow on me then.

While wooding the cabin sides, I removed all the threaded inserts for storm shutters. I realized they were only 1/2" deep and pretty small. Despite that though, they took some serious pounding with an easy out to remove. But I've decided to drill them out one size, 1/2", and plug for now. If I start to do more serious sailing, I'll install inserts again, but the next size up and longer.

This decision became more sound when I saw the strength of the tempered glass. We're coastal sailors.

I'm still not quite sure how I'll fasten these. It's a mute point in some ways as I don't think they'll be coming off easily. There's a fork in the road, longer seal-non removable,... not as long a seal-removable. Rockport Marine seems to thing most of these will last longer (2 woodings??) so they go for the former. If I do use brads, they need only hold the piece until the compound sets. If gentle heat is used to loosen the compound, the pins may not fight much.

I thought about doing this twice and storing the pieces, then, I stopped thinking about doing it. :)

[Tom Young]

My old boat has me feeling like a museum currator who spent the day boxing. My hands hurt!

But like a jigsaw puzzle these are the parts of my ports.

[Rachel]

Great photo! If your hands are going to hurt after a project, it should always result in a gorgeous pile of wood like that one :)

Rachel

[Hirilondë]

Great photo! If your hands are going to hurt after a project, it should always result in a gorgeous pile of wood like that one :)

Rachel

You got that right Rachel. Nothing works better to sooth achy muscles and such than staring at beautiful wooden creations. Probably a little too late to ask now, but did you label the pieces Tom? ;>)

[Tom Young]

[/quote] You got that right Rachel. Nothing works better to sooth achy muscles and such than staring at beautiful wooden creations. Probably a little too late to ask now, but did you label the pieces Tom? ;>)[/quote]

I did remember that Dave, but I'm embarrassed to say, I made an even bigger mistake. Test fitting the large starboard trim yesterday on the boat, I found myself without any parts that fit the large ports on the starboard side. ???? They very nicely fit the port side rabbets. And I had plenty of those,.....(sigh)....

Then of course it occurred to me, because the ports are asymmetrical, I had made two sets,....of starboard side trims....

Of course I went back and flipped the jigs over, and did a new, opposite set. Luckily, only the big eliptical pieces needed to be done, the other small corners of are reversible and the 5 small ports are symmetrical.

So the good news is, if I have a problem with a big port and need to pull it in the near future, there's a 50/50 chance, I already have the parts.

[Hirilondë]

OOOOPs!

It appears that I am not the only one who has to learn most things the hard way. When I did the same project on a Rhodes Reliant 41 I went so far as to actually do the installation without bedding before varnishing the openings and trim pieces. This way my counter sinks in the trims could be varnished ahead of installation but after knowing the fasteners would go in easily and align with the pilot holes in the openings. This mean less chance of moisture infiltration under the varnish later. One of the hardest things to explain to a customer is just how much labor goes into very time consuming and mundane redundancy that is just way important in achieving the desired outcome.

By the way, I still think screws and Dolfinite are the best combo for the trim installation. Now that you know how much work it takes to make trims that fit consider one last time this option before continuing. Knowing you can easily remove the stops intact for a rebedding is quite comforting.

[Tom Young]

In the end,.... I went with the devil I know. I used Lifecaulk again, screws, again. But thanks to all the advice I got here and on the Woodenboat site, I did a better application this time. Fully sealing all the surfaces and using up tubes of Boatlife like there was no tomorrow. 6 all told for the ports and trim pieces. A full squeeze out was had at all edges. Rockport Marine who's work I greatly admire, still uses a lot of Lifecaulk.

In the end it was the varnish time that made my decisions. It's inevitable that a cabin like this will require wooding in 10 or so years. Any sealants with more grip that may have lasted longer (Sika 291 was reccomended), may have been a waste of time, unless they went 20 years..... And anything with a shorter duration (such as Dolphinite, well reccomended by some), would be a problem with the varnish.

I think, with patience, and heat (the tempered glass can take it), I can remove these pieces.

Once you break all the sealing of varnish around the parts (varnish is a good sealer you renew a coat or two annually), it's time to start fresh.

It looks like hell now but once the goo hardens enough to cut away and sand, some varnish built up, I think it will look fine. And there won't be any water coming through, hopefully for a good long time.

[Rachel]

I like the way you think about it as a system, like ground tackle, and match up the functions when you choose "parts."

And those are some beautiful ports! They sure knew how to shape them.

Rachel

[Hirilondë]

They look great, and I bet you have no issues for many years.

..... And anything with a shorter duration (such as Dolphinite, well reccomended by some), would be a problem with the varnish.

Please don't say that. I don't know where you got that information but it is just plain wrong. Dolfinite has a duration if done properly of as long as 30 or more years. It also causes no problems what-so-ever with varnish. I have removed hardware, port trims, winches and many other pieces from wooden boats that were as much as 50 years in place and still found the "boatyard bedding" to be pliable and the seal intact.

[Tom Young]

They look great, and I bet you have no issues for many years.

..... And anything with a shorter duration (such as Dolphinite, well reccomended by some), would be a problem with the varnish.

Please don't say that. I don't know where you got that information but it is just plain wrong. Dolfinite has a duration if done properly of as long as 30 or more years. It also causes no problems what-so-ever with varnish. I have removed hardware, port trims, winches and many other pieces from wooden boats that were as much as 50 years in place and still found the "boatyard bedding" to be pliable and the seal intact.

Well if I had your experience, I probably would have just used it. :)

I was torn. I got a lot of feedback from the Woodenboat forum, including the info on Dolfinite. There were several Dolfinite recommendations for the same reasons you mentioned, easy removal. But several thought I would be removing them more often. I wouldn't mind that, except in this case.

I'm not worried about Dolfinite having problems with the varnish, just that removing the trims, with knife and some heat, would break all the sealing between the pieces from several coats of varnish. I think that would bring on a faster failure of the varnish system which I want to get full life out of. It's sort of a dynamic task, especially with the large panes of glass.

In the end the advice from the boatyard, and supported by a few others, and my prior 10 years of pretty good seal with a substandard application won me over.

[Hirilondë]

Tom, I am not saying that using Dolfinite was definitively the best option. That would be subjective. I am just saying that Dolfinite lasts a long time, and to say it doesn't is wrong. Polysulfides like Lifecaulk and boatyard beddings like Dolfinite have different characteristics. The decisions concerning which to use are a matter of preference for the characteristics desired. When we discuss topics such as this it is important to make only statements we can substantiate. Or to make sure we say that something is our opinion. There is a lot of bad information going around in many forums.

[falcon]

Tom,
I have rebedded the ports on my cheoy lee with life caulk and have had a tough time making the sealent bead look neat when I am finished. Trimming the excess leaves a very uneven surface. What is your tecnique?
falcon

[Tom Young]

Tom,
I have rebedded the ports on my cheoy lee with life caulk and have had a tough time making the sealent bead look neat when I am finished. Trimming the excess leaves a very uneven surface. What is your tecnique?
falcon

With bedding pieces in Life Caulk, I just let it splooge out all edges and then go away. If the overflow is on any sealed surface, I find it's pretty easy to trim and lightly scrape off with a stiff putty knife. You have to wait until it sets up enough to be the consistency of soft rubber, otherwise, it will still go everywhere.

But edges like this one, a trim board across the bridgedeck/cabin joint, are strictly a bedded joint. Meaning, I don't have any tooling to do as all that's left of the sealant is a thin line. It'll get lightly scraped, sanded with a block. It comes off clean from the sealed surfaces but leaves some residue on the raw bridgdeck. Not enough to make me want to tape it.



That's what I plan to do with these ports in another day or so, it's still not set up enough after a couple days. So I'll just end up with a thin line that will get varnished over and pretty much disappear(I hope).

This doesn't sound like it helps your problem much though, maybe someone else has some better advice. If you have a joint that is proud or wide enough to tool, you may want to tape, tool the sealant while wet, then pull the tape?

[Hirilondë]

There are 2 basic methods for dealing with the ooze from a bedding job. Both have been touched upon already, but they are letting it cure and trimming, or cleaning it up with a solvent before it cures. If you let it cure and trim you will always be susceptible over trimming or other forms of imperfections including damage to the wood or gelcoat. I prefer to clean with a solvent. This is why whenever I don't mind the extra adhesive properties of Sikaflex 291 it becomes my choice. Polysulfides like Lifecaulk seem to turn to a cottage cheese like consistency during the cleaning and leave a rough edge. Where as the polyurethanes clean up very nicely and the working time is longer. The only time I bother to use tape is when I am bedding to an unfinished wood or some material that may be stained by the bedding. An example would be unfinished teak decking. I will also use tape when the bedding is black and the fiberglass is older and the gelcoat more susceptible to staining. Other wise it is just an unnecessary step.

The bottom line for finishing a bedding job with polysulfides is that there is no really great way to do it. Doing it quickly if you clean with solvents helps. Making sure is has cured quite well if you trim helps. But neither is easy nor guaranteed to be perfect.

[Tom Young]

With other projects to do, I just got around to finishing the varnishing on the cain sides and port trim. I'm happy with how it looks and of course, there are no leaks now. About 4 more coats and it should be protected.

[Hirilondë]

Looks great! Now you can enjoy the beauty of it while you do other projects ;-)