Triton v. Alberg 30

[george]

What are the pros and cons of each?

From what I can gather the Alberg 30's ballast is not lead, and is therefore inferior (higher center of gravity).

What are some other things to consider? I am trying to find one of these, or something similar (Cape Dory for instance) and do a Glissando-type refit.

I can find Triton hulls for about $2,000, which is encouraging, and sailable Alberg 30's for $7,000.

Thanks for any input. This website is wonderfully done.

George
Atlanta, USA

[Tim]

George,

Both the Alberg 30 and the Triton are nice boats, and are certainly quite similar. The story goes that a group of sailors in Canada, charmed by the looks and performance of the Triton, commissioned Carl Alberg to design them a very similar--though slightly larger--version for their own group. Thus was born the Alberg 30.

Despite the similarity between the designs, there are significant differences. Most importantly, perhaps, is that the Alberg 30 is somewhat beamier, and has substantially more interior room as a result. If you find the Triton to be a bit cozy inside, you might find that the A-30 is "just right". The difference that extra 2' of length, and 6" of beam, make is startling, actually. Slight differences in hull shape also account for some of the extra interior roominess--the A-30's bilges are somewhat slacker, allowing for a wider cabin sole than the Triton.

The Triton's mast (East Coast fractional rig--the most common) is pretty much the same height as the Alberg 30's, and is a somewhat higher-aspect sailplan, with a marginally shorter boom and, of course, the fractional headstay. Higher aspect and proprotionately taller rigs tend to offer better performance; I would guess that the two designs would sail quite similarly, actually. Perhaps the longer waterline length of the A-30 would assist, but the Triton is a stellar performer for what she is.

Lookswise, I prefer the higher aspect fractional rig, myself. I always find the low-aspect CCA masthead rigs, with their short height and looooooooong booms, to be somewhat unattractive. (It's a personal thing, that's all...). The Alberg 30 hull and deck design, while very similar in concept to the Triton, is slightly less sleek. This, of course, also helps provide the additional interior room; there's always a price to pay for sleekness and low topsides.

Early model A-30s have stick-built wooden interiors; later models have horrible fiberglass-linered interiors and feel cheap inside. I forget what the model year split is, but beware of this. Not all A-30s are created equal.

I don't know about the ballast question in the A-30. Though it's true that lead is more dense than cast iron, this does not automatically translate into a higher center of gravity if the density of the material was taken into account in the design. Lead tends to be superior and preferred, but many boats have been built (and still are) with cast iron keels. Anytime you have iron, you have to worry about rust and corrosion, whether the ballast is internal or external. I prefer boats with external lead keels, myself. Earlier Tritons (up to and including #381) feature external lead ballast. Tritons numbered after #381 seem to generally have internal lead ballast, though the delineation between the two types may not be as precise as that. But don't let the prospect of internal/external/lead/iron ballast be the sole determining factor in searching for the right boat. Take any boat, and any example of that boat, at face value for its own merits before limiting your search because of abstract information.

You can find more information on the Alberg 30 at the class association website: The Alberg 30 Site

Tritons tend to be cheaper to buy than Alberg 30s; Alberg 30s, however, tend to have higher values when restored, as well. Both designs, when neglected, will have similar structural problems to deal with, and given the similar size and design of the boats, restoration costs between the two should also be quite close.

Feel free to post any other, more specific questions you might have, and you're sure to get some opinions from me and others on this board. Good luck in your search, and please come back and visit often!

[Dave, 397]

The story has it that Alberg designed the boat with lead ballast, but when putting the boat into production, Whitby Boat Works switched to iron as a cost-saving measure. Alberg, apprently (all of this background paraphrased from the Richard Henderson book "Choice Yacht Designs"), was most unhappy as the boat ended up a good deal more tender than the design was intended to be. Apparently there can be a swelling problem with the keels if the ballast gets wet and commences to rust. This, especially given my recent experiences with water in the ballast cavity of the triton and the discovery of just how common it can be with an encapsulated ballast boat, is my biggest concern. I think you would very much want to check or have checked the moisture content of the keel to get some idea on this...and if the keel is dry, perhaps add some class over the ballast cavity for good measure? Dunno--that's Tim's area of expertise.
Dave

[D. Fox]

I think that's the first time I've ever heard any element of any Alberg design called "high aspect." Everything's relative, I suppose.

WRT A30s, you may want to get a copy of John Vigor's book "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere." He has detailed descriptions of these and similar boats, with lots of pros and cons. He does discuss the iron ballast in the A30, one negative of which is that it required more volume, leading to a raised cabin sole and less headroom. Same thing happend with later models of the Bristol 27, which got iron filings for ballast sometime in the 70s. He mentions the tendency of the iron filings to rust and expand, causing serious hull damage.

I personally have never sailed on an A30. In fact, I'll admit my general lack of experience with Alberg designs (which are my favorites by far) and say that I've only sailed on two: my own B27 and one Triton (Glissando). There were several A30s in my former marina though, and they appeared well laid out and spacious (again, all things being relative). The ones I've sailed with/against performed very well. Here on the Chespapeake, they have a very dedicated owner's association and most appear to be meticulous in maintaining their boats.

Dan

PS: Dave, where are you in Bellingham? My parents live in Sudden Valley and we're going there in early August to visit.

[george]

Perhaps this thread is too old to revive?

But here is the scenario.

1) I am flush with tax return cash!

2) I want an Alberg design.

3) There is one in my back yard (Alberg designs seem sorta rare down South and this one is where I would eventually want to keep it, Jeykll Island, near where my mom lives and where I grew up).

Here is the cruisenews plastic classic advertisement:

http://cruisenews.net/cgi-bin/classic/w ... /read/1495

I e-mailed the owner and asked if it was still for sale.

Here is the owner's response:

George,

The boat is still for sale but I do need to emphasize that it is a project
boat. There is a working diesel, new sails, roller furling, mast steps,
etc. It will need wood work on the exterior and the interior. Call me at
912-576-1766 if your are interested.

Gary

What sorta questions should I ask in my reply to him? I am about to dust off my "20 boats to take you anywhere" but any advice you folks can afford me would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Rachel]

Hi George,

I actually looked at that A-30 in early January. Definitely a low price for an Alberg 30 with a diesel, but it is most definitely a true, "gut it and start over" project. When I first called on it, he was saying things like "needs updating"; I'm glad he is now describing it as a project.

One thing I was going to say about an A-30 as compared to a Triton is that the Triton is legally trailerable, with no special permits, whereas the A-30, with its wider beam, is not. That's not to say that folks don't trailer them, because they do. But you do then have to choose between kind of "sneaking," and wondering what happens with insurance, etc; or dealing with the various wide-load permits and rules in all the states you will be travelling through.

Only a consideration if you plan to trailer, of course. I don't think the added beam would make much of a price difference for having it professionally trucked. I'm not sure about that, but I think they really start to add $ to the price when it's over 10' wide, which the A-30 isn't.

FWIW --- Rachel

[Tim]

You may be ahead of the game with some of the equipment that is listed, but you want to confirm what condition all of that is in before you make any final decisions.

New sails: are they really new, or were they new 5 years ago? Confirm this visually. New sails look--well--new. But even if they're not truly new, they may be nice and decent. That saves a lot in the long run, if you can get several years' use out of the current set. Actually, the original listing says "good" sails, not new. Which are they?

"Working" diesel: is that somehow a selling point? Why isn't it assumed? In any case, it doesn't sound overly complimentary. Find a model number and report back for more opinions.

Be very wary of any claims about this boat till you see it in person and decide for yourself. Embellishment is common in all boat sales, particularly sale-by-owner deals. If a high point of the listing is "mast steps", then I'm guessing the boat probably needs some help.

That said, go and look at the boat. The A30 is a nice boat, and feels quite a bit larger than a Triton, mostly because of the beam. All the usual structural questions apply. $5000 is a pretty low price for an A30, and the boat might be worth it if it doesn't have major structural issues with which to contend, and if the equipment that comes with it is anything remotely approaching decent. Don't pay more because of the diesel, unless it's a sparkling, shiny, new one. (Which it's not...)

Major deck core rot would mean that the price should be lower. Isolated areas are to be expected, and, frankly, are built into that low price. You should be looking for signs of serious damage to decks, hull, bulkheads, and mast support, not nit-picking over smaller areas. I would expect that much work needs to be done regardless. A30s hold much more value than Tritons, despite their similarities, so the boat'll really have to be a basket case to justify a price lower than the $5000 asking price. Possible, but I already sense that negotiation will not be highly successful, either.

Take some pictures!

[bcooke]

Hi George,

Old threads never die.

I would say you won't want to trailer an A30. Let the big boys handle it. They have the insurance, the permits and the tow rigs. It would be much cheaper to haul your boat somewhere once a year than buy a trailer and tow vehicle and keep them maintained.

A30s hold much more value than Tritons, despite their similarities, so the boat'll really have to be a basket case to justify a price lower than the $5000 asking price

Very true. You would have to look a long time to find an A30 any cheaper in any condition.

What questions to ask? What does it matter, the seller would probably put a spin on it anyway! or outright lie :-) Really though, I think the major questions have been given by more qualified people already. Ask Mike on Figment about the value of deck core or ask Nathan on Dasein about ... what is Nathan tearing apart today?... what is left?... I think there is another thread about proper questions somewhere on the board too. I think it was in reference to a Triton but the same questions apply.

I do have an A30 down the road from me that could probably be termed more of a sailing project rather than a total rebuild and about a year ago the owner was asking $11k. The price now is probably a bit lower. He just wanted to be rid of it then. I didn't sound the decks but they weren't obviously bad (which doesn't necessarily mean anything, only I didn't fall through which is hopeful!) Old sails, old gas motor (not an A4, something even older looking), tired wood, nothing too wrong from what I saw on an initial inspection - just tired. I found my Triton about the same time and worked a better deal which is why I stopped looking at it. I am way up here north of Boston but then if you wanted a surveyor to look at it you might talk Tim into taking the job.

My cousin would kill me for saying this but I also know of a Triton project in the yard where I am. (#383 or #385, something like that) The owner always pays the storage fee and doesn't do anything which is why my cousin (the yard owner) wants to keep the boat where it is. It has been there for at least ten years and I heard recently that the owner was holding out for one or two thousand dollars. A real Triton project if you are interested :-)


-Britton

[Rachel]

George,

When I said I looked at that A-30, I actually did drive to SE Georgia and look at it, in-person. I though an A-30 that "needed updating" might be a good purchase. I'm not interested in it; if you're far away, I could perhaps give you an idea of what I saw.

It is about the cheapest A-30 out there, probably, but a heck of a project. Don't know how "new" the sails are (the bees drove me away and I already knew I wasn't interested), but the UV cover for the roller-furled jib was covered in green moss.

I think if you were planning to gut and re-do everything, like Tim is with his new boat, it could possibly be a good boat; but I wouldn't count on any of the equipment being a bonus, from what I saw.

I'd better say that someone else who was interested in it a month-or-so ago contacted me and I let him know what I'd seen (he was thousands of miles away from the boat). He mentioned something to the seller about "a woman who had looked at the boat" and the seller figured out it was me and was a little miffed over my description of the boat.

So let me say that anything I say about it is just what *I* saw, and may not be accurate ... although I will say that my vision is perfectly fine and I think I'm capable of describing what I've seen. Some would disagree, apparently :-)

--- Rachel

[Figment]

the UV cover for the roller-furled jib was covered in green moss.

um..... That "new" sail has been hoisted and furled (but not used) for so long that moss/mold is growing on the cover?. Jeez, I wonder if they ever bothered to release the halyard tension.

I'll echo most of what's been posted above. At that price, some deck core work is to be expected. Much rewiring is to be expected. Some engine work is to be expected. Cosmetics aren't worth discussion.

For $5k, you assume stewardship of a vessel that needs another $10k invested. The happiest two days of any boat owner's life....... ;)

[bcooke]

So let me say that anything I say about it is just what *I* saw, and may not be accurate ...

I'd say you have seen more boats over the last couple of months than most and probably know the market better than many. I would take your word for it.

the UV cover for the roller-furled jib was covered in green moss.

That answers any questions I might have had!

If this boat interests you I think there are some old pictures on this forum of an A30 I looked at last year that might interest you too (under "value of moisture test" or some such).

Tim, you have lots of space at your place, why don't we set up a humane society for abused and neglected boats and base it out of the Lackey boat farm... I mean barn!

-Britton

[Tim]

Tim, you have lots of space at your place, why don't we set up a humane society for abused and neglected boats and base it out of the Lackey boat farm... I mean barn!

Believe me...I've thought of that.

[george]

I will drive down there and take pictures this weekend. My mom lives nearby and I can visit her as well.

I have called the guy and left a message and have a list of questions ready to go.

If nothing else I will get to take my dog to the beach!

[Rachel]

Now there's a great idea: The Old Boats' Home! Back in my 20s I used to do a lot of kayaking (and it wasn't that popular then, so lots of us made our own fiberglass boats). We always joked about "The Old Paddlers' Home" that we'd have - with a big front porch for rockers, and a nice shop out back.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about "The Triton Factory"? I think it's also called something geometric, like Triangle Boatworks, or Diamond Boatworks...

Looks like a regular, for-profit boatyard, but I noticed it mentioned a number of times on the NETA roster. As in, "My hull #xxx, which is currently being refurbished at The Triton Factory."

And thanks for those reinforcements of my opinions; couldn't ask for much more than votes of confidence from this board :-)

--- Rachel
Still boat shopping - although it is frozen tarp season.

[bcooke]

Funny, I asked the same question about the "Triton factory" last year.

Here was Nathan's response:

As for the "Triton Factory" I think that name is a bit of a misnomer. It is a large boat shop run by the Pattersons who happen to have leased space to several other Triton owners. It is a very informal place. I think that if you could get in touch with the Pattersons you would be welcome to visit, but they are notoriously difficult to pin down. Tim may have more insight here.

Never hurts to look at another old boat. I for one will be curious, although I saw enough neglected boats in my search for my Triton to shudder uncontrollably at the mental picture. Is it okay to feel sorry for a GRP boat or am I just weird? ... uh ... Just answer the first part.

-Britton

[Rachel]

Is it okay to feel sorry for a GRP boat or am I just weird? ... uh ... Just answer the first part.

My answer (to both parts) would be that you'll have to take any answer you get from this group with a grain of salt! In fact, if this membership says you're *not* weird, well then maybe that actually means.....

Thanks for the info on The Triton Factory.

--- Rachel

[Tim]

The "Triton Factory" was once Triangle Marine Engineering. To the best of my knowledge, Triangle Marine shut its doors last year. The Patersons (yup, one "t") were involved in many other things, and with large overhead and production startup problems I think they decided life would be simpler without the headaches involved. They were trying to start production on the Quonset Point 25, a powerboat, but I heard there were some ordering problems. You can see this boat at their website, which is still up and running: www.trimareng.com

A few years ago, there were 5 or 6 Tritons stored inside, in various stages of rebuilding--hence its tongue-in-cheek name, the "Triton Factory".

Now there's a great idea: The Old Boats' Home!

So many worthy old boats, so little room. Perhaps in the near future I can rectify that situation.

...am I just weird?

We're all a little off base here! What fun would life be otherwise?

[JetStream]

"The Triton Factory"
I just talked with the Patersons at the Providence Boat Show about a month ago and had also run into the wife at Wickford Marine Consignment recently. The building in Quonset where they used to be, was taken by the State or something like that. They moved to a building at Albin Marine in Portsmouth, which is really the old Pearson factory. She said they are right in what used to be the workers' locker room, but at least they have heat. I understand they found a lot of old Pearson molds, including the Triton, out in the weeds and woods. They are concentrating on that power boat and I heard they had a few orders. I was actually going to call them to see if they might have found a mold in the weeds for a Pearson 30 sea hood.

[Tim]

Well there you have it: new information with more accuracy behind it the stuff I was spouting. Thanks for the update, which seems straight from the horse's mouth.

Bob Paterson is a talented fellow with great dreams. If he can work out the hard-core business side of it all, he'll do great things.