AwlGrip Application

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi All,


It appears from these recent threads that we have some real pro's in the painting department. I was going to wait a bit on this post but as everyone is talking painting I thought I would ask my question...

I live in Williamsburg, VA and on September 23'rd I'm hauling my C&C 40 "Delphinus" and painting her topsides, cove stripe, and bootstripe. The current paint job is a green DuPont Imron paint. The plan is to sand down the existing paint, fill and patch as necessary, do one or two coats of AwlGrip 545 gray primer, final sanding, tack off and do three coats of Awlgrip Flag Blue sanding lightly aqnd tacking between each coat. I'll then apply the Awlgrip Snow White boot stripe and Awlgrip Cordovan Gold cove stripe in the same fashion. I may even do Vivid Red and Cordovan Gold stripes immediately above the boot stripe or maybe even as the boot stripe. No final decision there yet. This will be a roll and tip job done outside in a quiet part of the boat yard. I'm starting the job in late September so I'll have temps in the 70's during application of the paint. The boat will also be positioned so that I won't have to paint in direct sunlight. I'm giving myself about three weeks for this job.

When I rolled and tiped out the AwlGrip on my mast, boom, and spreaders I did one side at a time so there would be no drips or sags in the paint on the underneath side. The mast, boom, and spreaders came out beautifully and I became pretty comfortable working with the AwlGrip products. I even became pretty good at the balancing act that has to be performed in keeping the reducer levels correct as the paint job moves along. I did this job outside at the end of October.

My question is about the application of Awlgrip paint on vertical surfaces. Specifically, how do you keep it from sagging? My feeling from the first Awlgrip job I did was that the paint likes to sag when you are doing a roll / tip application. How can this be prevented. Any specific tips or techniques?


George Jones
C&C 40 #21 "Delphinus"

P.S. -- Doing a spray application is not an option where I am located.

[Figment]

Yeah, that can be a toughie. Awlgrip, and similar paints that are formulated with spraying in mind, have fantastic "flow", but this also means that it'll run or sag if given even half a chance. I think it helps to always bear in mind that this stuff is formulated to go on in a very very thin film.

As a rule, use less paint. I know it sounds so simple it's ridiculous, and I don't mean to make it sound like it's so easy a monkey could do it. Just keep thinking to yourself "holidays are easier to fix than runs". Repeat that to yourself over and over as you paint. Every once in a while, throw in a round of "eh, it wouldn't kill me to have to do a fourth coat...".

In theory, the roll-vertically-and-tip-horizontally method really minimizes the potential for runs and sags, because it mimizes the potential for overloading the surface. It's not perfect, however, so some experimentation and practice will be worthwhile to develop that critical "feel".

I've only ever participated in one r&t awlgrip job, so I'm really no expert. By the time you finish painting a 40' boat, though, I think YOU will be!

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Figment,

Thanks for the quick reply. I would have thought you would roll horizontally and tip vertically so I've learned something already. Thanks for the note.

George Jones
"Delphinus"

[Figment]

Well there are schools of thought that go both ways, of course.

I dig vertical rolling, however. By spreading the paint vertically, you're getting ahead of the vertical spreading that gravity does when runs and sags are created.

"Use the roller to spread the paint, not the brush. The brush is there simply to knock down the stipple left behind by the roller. If you find yourself spreading the paint with the tipping brush, you're using too much paint on the roller."

I've forgotten where I read that, but it stuck with me as a good way to think about the process.

[heartofgold]

I hardily agree with Mike (this is becoming a habit, it appears). Using the absolute minimal amount of material on your roller is the key to a good roll and tip. Just like I say about 3M 5200: "Less is more."

We had an "expert" come into the yard last winter, and he was good enough to r&t a boat for us. He insisted that he always r&t-ed vertically. I quietly objected, and, as I was far less experienced than he, was promptly ignored by the powers that be. It turned out so bad that after 4 coats, we sanded and added 2 more coats sprayed (and you could still see the vertical brush lines). I realized immediately why it is important to r&t horizontally. If you tip vertically, the brush marks are vertical, which is to say that the material flows with the lines and does not level itself. On the other hand, when you tip horizontally, you leave brush lines which are perpendicular to the flow of gravity, hence the material flows "together," and the lines mostly level out. Our r&t "expert" no longer works with us, we now roll and tip horizontally, and Heart of Gold still looks darn good, in spite of how little I knew when I painted her.

It took me 3 weekends to prime and paint Heart. I would highly recomend 2 coats of primer, the second makes quite a big difference.

By the way, George, we just today finished a C&C 40, Thorfinn. We sprayed, of course, but she turned out nice (I'll try to get some pictures soon). The owner wanted a peculiar paint scheme, with alternating red and black stripes, both boot and whale; and the cove was ignored completely. But alas, the owner is always right (how big do you want them poka-dots?).

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for all the great information. I love a good detailed response to a question. Thanks also to Tim for hosting this forum. This is the kind of info you really can't get anywhere else.

George Jones
C&C 40 "Delphinus"

[Invitation]

George,

I have done this several times and my recommendation is to thin the paint thinner than you think. The thinner it is the less sagging you are going to get. It almost feels like you are applying water to your boat, it's so thin but the results are much better. I would also recommend at least one coat of clear as a finish. I painted my Herreshoff 18 years ago with 3 coats of black and 2 clear and she still looks great to this day. You will also need a second person with you to keep adding thinner to your paint. The moment you feel like you are "pulling" the paint, it's almost too late so keep adding small amounts and keep mixing as you go.

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Invitation,

Thanks for the note. That's the second time I've heard the advice to keep the paint thin thin thin! The exact quote was "Thin the paint so that it is transparent on each coat." I've also read that "Redtree" makes a very good foam roller for this application and that Corona" makes a brush called the "Urathaner" which works well as a tipping brush. Keep the advice coming!

George Jones
"Delphinus"

[Invitation]

Another rule of thumb, you can brush it 3 or 4 times but by the 5th time you start pulling the paint. Work quickly !

[Robert The Gray]

my 2 cents,,
make sure your scafolding is set up so you do not have to stop.

use planks on boxes rather than ladders so nothing is in the way of a good body position.

the bow may need more height to the scaffolding
if possible extend the planks beyond the finishpoint again to facilitate good body position.

It can be difficult to see the wet edge when working on the shady side of hte boat. you can use a white poster board or a canvas drop cloth to reflect some light onto your work surface. put it on the ground in the sun beyond the shadow of the hull and it will reflect some light but not to much heat back up onto the work surface

good luck
Robert

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the advice. I was trying to decide about staging and think I will take your advice about planks on boxes over ladders. There is also the possibility I can borrow some real paint staging too. Thanks for the tip about seeing the wet edge using reflected light.

George

[Tim]

Leveling is all about the amount of reducer added. The paint will level if the reducer amount is correct for the conditions at the time. This varies from day to day, and even over the course of a single coat, so be meticulous here.

If you're working alone, in my opinion you have to tip vertically. Otherwise, you don't have a prayer of avoiding lap marks as you go. Even with two people, I'd be concerned about horizontal tipping--all those brush strokes, over the 3' height of your topsides, one at a time...it woul be extremely hard to avoid a lap mark at the beginning.

Tipping vertically means that it is easier to maintain a wet edge, as you have only the one brush stroke at the overlap, which is easier to maintain. I tipped vertically on the two roll/tip jobs that I did, and was very pleased with the method. Leveling was not a problem as long as the reduction was correct.

Note that you will absolutely positively need to add reducer as you go. Keep some handy and add it as soon as you feel the slightest drag on the brush. It's also a handy tip to keep a clean brush soaked in reducer so that if your original brush becomes too loaded, you have a new one ready to go.

I recommend the best badger brush you can buy for this job. Some things just aren't worth skimping on. I also used mohair rollers for the rolling; they work well as long as you roll out the initial strokes on some scrap to rid the roller of any loose fibers. You should also pre-clean your new brushes and rollers before use. Since you always need to apply paint to a test area to check your reduction before beginning on the boat, this all works out well.

If you reduce correctly and take care in application, you will not ever be able to tell that the paint job was done with roller and brush. Note that the primers often are tougher to self-level when brushed and rolled, so apply an additional coat or two to allow for more meticulous sanding and preparation. I recommend going to 400 grit or higher on the final primer sanding, as even 320 scratches can show through the topcoats under certain conditions.

Oh, I should add: thinner paint is better than thicker, and more coats better than fewer. Consider your first coat to be a test bed, if you will. While you want to strive to avoid runs, they are not the end of the world in the first coat--sand them out and continue. The first coat will teach you a lot about the product and its application, so don't expect perfection by any means. Note also that the first coat will barely cover the primer, and may look very disapointing. But your second coat will be better, and your third coat will be better still, as you shoul dhave a good working knowledge of the product's characteristics by then.

Good luck!

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the detailed message. Hopefully, I will have at least one partner helping with the roll and tip work. I have two guys scheduled to help with the project and with at least 5 days of painting I'm sure I can count on at least one guy every day. I'm goint to try the horizontal tipping first but will move to vertical tipping if I can't get it to work out.

Thanks again for all the good advice,

George Jones
C&C 40 "Delphinus"

[Figment]

Good point about the number of people involved in the paintjob. The awlgrip job I was in on had three or four people working at any one time. I can't imagine doing it with less, we were hustling pretty hard as it was.

[Splash Date?]

I have been sanding, rolling/tipping sanding - at least 3 coats of 2 part Endura high build undercoat and certain repair work - incorrect gelcoat colour or epoxy repair is still visible. In one or two spots I have gone down to the gel coat. I have got it sanded down to 220 grit machine and hand sanding where needed.

At what point do you say enough is enough and get onto the first finish coat?

Second question, some of my undercoat work was done a year ago and I have left 3M blue masking tape down, it has not torn when hit with a sander, should it be removed and replaced with fresh tape when I do get to the final coats?

Time comes when the boat should be out there sailing and being used.

[Tim]

At what point do you say enough is enough and get onto the first finish coat?

Everyone has their own threshhold and standards for this. The rule of thumb here is that your finish coat will only ever be as good as your preparation work, so keep that in mind. Dark colors require the most meticulous prep for best results, but light colors are much more forgiving. Still, one should strive for the best they can do.

Note also that for best results, you need a consistent layer of your primer beneath the finish coats. Sanding through in some places will likely cause variations in the final paint finish. If you've sanded through your primer to the gelcoat, I'd continue your hand sanding till you're happy with the surface, and then apply another 1-2 coats of primer, which should then be carefully hand sanded smooth, but without burning through. Then, you're ready for topcoats.

You're right that at some point you need to be out sailing, rather than working. But this must be balanced with the prospect of wasting a lot of hard work only to rush things at the end, when it really matters. As I said, everyone has their own standards and desires here, so only you know for sure when you think it's good enough.

Second question, some of my undercoat work was done a year ago and I have left 3M blue masking tape down, it has not torn when hit with a sander, should it be removed and replaced with fresh tape when I do get to the final coats?

By all means remove that tape at once. I think it's going to be a bear, but it needs to be done now, before finish coats, unless you like the way the blue tape looks on there and want to keep it permanently. Otherwise you'll never get it off without ruining your paint job. Tape like that becomes welded to the boat over time, and with wetting and drying and baking in the sun. I wish you the best of luck in its removal, and hope that it goes more smoothly than I fear it might.

[Jason K]

Be careful with that removal though. Don't try sanding off all of that adhesive which, unfortunately, is going to be a real pain. Use some sort of solvent and a paint scraper.

[Jason K]

George,

How did it come out? I'm curious as I'll be doing the same thing here shortly. Photos?

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi All,


The hauling of the boat and the paint job was scheduled for the last week of September. As it turns out, I ended up buying another boat and wasn't able to get to the paint job on the C&C 40. I'll paint the C&C next Fall.

The new boat is a Wavelength 24 and it required some rigging work, a complete stripping of the mast, boom, and spreaders and an Awlgrip paint job of those pieces, two new main bulkheads, and the addition of a bunch of trapazoidal foam stiffeners. Lots and lots of fiberglass grinding fun!
Plus a complete interior paint job.

That's what I have been doing since the last week of September instead of painting the C&C. I'll race the WL24 in CLub events and a few selected Chesapeake Bay regattas. I'll cruise the C&C and look forward to doing one of the big ocean races with her in 2007 or 2008.


George Jones