It Sails...

[RobA]

I have a ton of questions after my first sail. My dad and I brought the boat up from Marathon to Ft. Pierce. I am staying in their house in Vero to continue to work on the boat until I'm ready to head to the Bahamas.

It was a great trip. I learned so much, and didn't encounter any major problems. I did create an endless list of questions though. Perhaps you guys can help me with a few.




Main Halyard: When the main is raised I actually get 2 or 3 wraps around the winch with the wire part of the halyard. I would think lowering the boom would stop this, but its already about as low as possible to clear the dodger (remember, i'm new to sailing as well as this boat). So, is it ok? I have already noticed a couple loose strands on the halyard, one of which was there before I left, So I don't know if its just old, or being used wrong, or was not made right (length etc) to begin with.


Main track: There is a 3" section missing just above what I would call the boom track. It allows you to put the main on, and then is supposed to be reinstalled, but its gone (...Any ideas where I can get a 3" piece of track? Without having to buy a large expensive section.... I need to take measurements to the width/height of the track. (its external raised type of track)


The tiller had a bunch of play in it, and toying with it today, it actually came off in my hand...hurm... I need a new camera so I could show you folks what I am talking about, mine bit the farm on the trip (. I am going to replace the bronze key way tomorrow and see if that helps. It has some wear on the key way, but turning it over and around didn't seem to do any good. It almost appears to me that even with a new keyway the clamp section of the tiller just won't close enough to make tight contact with the shaft. Is there ever a spacer or nylon type washer that goes in there to take up some space?


One of the valves on the avon dinghy bit the dust. Anyone have a source for getting another? I really think I can use the same valve, but just replace the spring and diaphram and rod. (the rod that pushes in broke off from the diaphram) Hopefully still using the inside part of the existing valve. I searched the internet and only found a link to a place in the UK.


Well, these are just some questions that popped to mind, Probably not top priority.

I just want to keep moving with my progress and a few answer will get me fixing something. The more I fix, the longer the list of things to do grows....*shrug*



Motoring sux, but when the wind is finally from the right direction its great. Especially when you pass another sailboat :)



Rob

[Figment]

Main Halyard: I don't know if its just old, or being used wrong, or was not made right (length etc) to begin with.

A bit of wire on the drum isn't the end of the world (unless it's a bronze drum), lots of boats are rigged this way, though they're usually much larger boats. Be careful not to overcrank that sucker. It'll be all too easy to wreck your sail shape by habitually overtensioning the luff. If you see a few broken strands, it's time to replace it, but I wouldn't put it at Priority One.

Main track: There is a 3" section missing just above what I would call the boom track. It allows you to put the main on, and then is supposed to be reinstalled, but its gone (...Any ideas where I can get a 3" piece of track? Without having to buy a large expensive section.... I need to take measurements to the width/height of the track. (its external raised type of track)

Why do you need the track to be continuous at this point? I'd just get a stopper to keep the sail slides on the track while the sail is down and leave it at that.

The tiller had a bunch of play in it, and toying with it today, it actually came off in my hand...

Yowza. Yeah, get some pics of that one.

One of the valves on the avon dinghy bit the dust. Anyone have a source for getting another? I really think I can use the same valve, but just replace the spring and diaphram and rod. (the rod that pushes in broke off from the diaphram) Hopefully still using the inside part of the existing valve. I searched the internet and only found a link to a place in the UK.

Will you be able to install these replacement parts without removing the whole valve assembly from the membrane of the boat? Anyway, I think the local Avon dealer is the source you need.

Sounds like you're having a blast! Just keep going.

[RobA]

Good news on the halyard then. :)

When that small piece of main track was missing, I made a stopper, It serves its purpose, but.....that 3 inches holds the main up enough that I don't think I can get the 2nd or 3rd reef in the sail.


I only tried using 1 reef on the trip, so maybe today I will play around and see if I can squeeze the other reefs on. It basically bunches the sail up so that you can't pull it down enough to hook the next hole. (clew?/reef point)




Ya, if I can find a avon place nearby maybe they have the parts. At first I thought i would have to cut out the valve (or however people fix that) but it appears, if the diaphram is small enough, i can just stick it in the hole and reassemble it inside easily enough. Just need the parts.




More Questions:


Monitor Wind vane. I have a manual and all but... I don't see where it talks about this problem. If no one here is familiar, ill try elsewhere but:

Everything works good, at least when there is decent wind. The problem I have is that it wants to lift the tiller as it corrects it. And then slowly over time, the tiller is raised a few inches and its out of "trim". I am assuming i need to adjust where the tiller attaches to the windvane line. I just hate to start moving things, that "should" have been working if the previous owner used it at all. A way to "lock" the tiller down would also fix this.

I filled a milk jug with water and hung it off the forward end of tiller for downweight and everything worked like a charm, heh.


Rob

[The Good Goose]

I had the same problem with my tiller head. clamping can be improved by tightening the two ears in a vise and sawing through them a couple of times with a hacksaw. retightening between cuts. No matter what, they seem to work upwards on the shaft over time. I finally drilled through the top of my tiller head into the shaft and tapped the shaft for a 5/16ths inch bolt and have had no such problems since.

Brock Richardson

[windrose]

Rob, sounds like you had a great trip.... good on ya!:-)

I think you should be able to screw the middle out of the valve on the inflatable. Any inflatable place (or even a West Marine) will have a replacement. Good luck, keep us a breast of your travels.

[RobA]

That sounds like a good idea to cut some away on the tiller. Replacing the key stock didn't help much.




When I motor, I get a lot of water leaking from around the tiller/rudder. One of the books I said, its not uncommon for that to happen when motoring because of the wave size. Is this standard for tritons?
I didn't notice it leak at all when sailing, and there is zero when at the dock.




Tuning: Can a novice stand a chance at tuning the rigging? I got some directions off the national triton page i think. I am not feeling very confident. One guy who looked at the boat with me suggested it was tuned decent. Then I obtained a survey from a year ago from the previous owner(dry docked since then) and it actually stated it was so out of tune, it shouldn't be sailed until adjusted *whoops*.

I'm also solo at this time, so that doesn't make it any easier.



Rob

[Tim]

Tuning: Can a novice stand a chance at tuning the rigging? I got some directions off the national triton page i think. I am not feeling very confident. One guy who looked at the boat with me suggested it was tuned decent. Then I obtained a survey from a year ago from the previous owner(dry docked since then) and it actually stated it was so out of tune, it shouldn't be sailed until adjusted *whoops*.

Yes, a novice can tune the rig just fine. This has been covered elsewhere on this forum, but it's not the rocket science that so many would have you believe. All you are looking for, for normal sailing, is , first, for the rig to remain standing (of course), and for there to be no significant bends one way or the other--in other words, for the spar to be as straight as practicable. This is easily accomplished first at the dock by sighting up the mainsail track and adjusting stays as needed (loosen one side, perhaps, or tighten the other; a little twinging of the stays by hand will help with this), and then by sighting up the mast under sail in a moderate breeze on both tacks. With some give and take on either side and the various shrouds, you'll soon have a straight mast.

Racers do other things with tuning that just don't apply to the cruising sailor. Forget about it, and forget the NTA tuning guide, which is meant for race-tuned boats.

How, praytell, did the "surveyor" determine the mast was out of tune and therefore shouldn't be sailed? Some people. Unless the rigging was loose and sloppy, this sort of observation had no place in a survey, except one performed by God the Surveyor, as so many seem to view themselves.

If the stays are nicely hand tight, the rig will not come down, barring other factors at play. The rest of your tuning comes after this important step. It's not that hard to get your mast straightened out pretty well; leave absolute perfection for the racers. Good luck and happy sailing!

[RobA]

Well its funny I read the last reply now. I just got home from attempting to tune the boat via the NTA guide. I left thinking it was time to pay a rigger to come out and help me.


I am going to search the forums here and see if I can find more info on what I need. I appreciate the help once again so many people have provided to me.


I loosened the backstay and lower shrouds up and tried to take the aft bend out of the mast very unsucessfully. It does appear to be centered awthwardship (think i spelled that right). Via checking how the NTA said to.


From here on out I'll disregard that NTA info and hopefully can straighten it out some tomorrow.

The mast bends aft a lot. Having nothing to compare "a lot" to but its very evident at a quick glance that it bends aft. Even after loosing the backstay to very sloppy and the lower shrouds it had a pretty good aft bend. Tighting the rear lowers may have helped some, but I was never able to get it close to straight.

What do I do with the forestay? Could that help me with the aft bend? I never adjusted the jumper struts aloft (hah, like im going up by myself and reaching out to those!) so maybe thats where the problem was. Although the bend aft appears to start much lower in the mast.

I also wonder if the relocation of the chainplates is a problem, they appear to be much nearer the upper shroud stays and maybe that stops the rear lowers from putting enough aft pressure on the mast to straighten it. I hope not. (you can probably see the locations on old photos i posted)


Anyway, off to searching and reading up.


Rob

[Tim]

The jumpers do need to be fairly tight to allow the headstay and backstay tensions to remain as tight as they should be. If you ever buy new wires, think about adding turnbuckles to the jumper stays where they attach to the mast above the spreaders--this makes adjusting much easier.

You should be able to adjust your headstay turnbuckle too, if you feel the mast is too far aft. Most roller furlers (if you have one) have a way that allows you access to the turnbuckle. Some do not; I don't know your setup.

Do you have double lowers? Perhaps the forward lowers are too tight, which pulls the center portion of the mast forward. Loosening these and perhaps tightening the aft lowers may help. Without seeing your mast it's all guesswork from here, of course.

If the aft bend is mostly from above the spreaders to the masthead, you probably need to tighten the jumper stays. This is decidedly inconvenient with the original setup.

[RobA]

Well, I have a better understanding and more confidence now at least. I was afraid it needed to be so "on" that I would hurt things.

I'll play with it until I get it close.

You said :

If the aft bend is mostly from above the spreaders to the masthead, you probably need to tighten the jumper stays. This is decidedly inconvenient with the original setup.


I think that is my problem. I basically had the backstay and forward and aft lowers really loose and I still had lots of bend aft.

So...I guess I need to get up there and adjust. That being said, I did not look to see if there were turnbuckles at the mast. Maybe I will be lucky.

Also, I dont have a roller furling so i should be able to adjust the forestay if needed. I understand more now that its just to move the mast forward and not help with the bend. I didn't touch the forestay today so hopefully thats on track. Besides eyeballing any good way to check for forward/aft lean? Or again maybe its not that precise.


I get frustrated when I don't "know" about things. Especially when I consider them important. It's good to know this isn't all that scientific and I can handle this. I hate to have to pay people to do things for me just because I don't know how. I'm more then willing, but I don't want to sacrafice safety just to save a few bucks.

Tomorrow is a new day, I'll give it another shot.



Climbing the mast......Ok I have mast steps (yes the little I have sailed everytime I grab a line its wrapped around one of them). Whats the procedure for safely climbing up a mast with steps alone? Do I need to wait for help? Do i need to buy a 200.00 buson chair?

I have a harness and double teather, I guess I could just act like i'm rock climbing and keep clipping in on my way up *shrug*

[Robert The Gray]

treat it like you're on a rock climb, but a free solo at the beginning. once you are at you place of work tie a saftey line around the mast above the spreaders. Belay your self, so you can have both hands free. if you have jumars you can rig a a saftey line on the main halyard. I would attach the halyard at the base of the mast and have it taught climb up as high as you can and then attach the jumars. if you are at the dock you can use a ladder on the fore deck. tie the ladder to the mast on your first trip up and it will be more secure. these methods are sketchy, inadequatley explained and not approved by brion toss I suppose, nothing is as safe as being hoisted on a halyard by someone else in a harness/chair with a safety line lead to the mast head. basically as far as is practical make sure you do not free fall onto a lifeline stantion

r.

[Tim]

The tether for your harness probably isn't a terrible idea when climbing alone. The steps are pretty secure, but I am sure the safety of a tether would be well worth the additional effort of clipping and unclipping, especially once you get to the height at which you're going to work.

I don't mean to eschew sound mast tuning practice. However, what I do mean to do is make it clear that "tuning" implies setting things up in a precise manner for best results. I don't consider adjusting the stays so that the mast is basically straight and in column to be "tuning", per se. Semantics, maybe, but it's two very different animals. As you gain confidence and skill, you'll find you probably will be able to tweak things to your benefit. For now, just worry about getting the mast straight and keeping it in column.

Make your adjustments in small increments, and remember that if you tighten one side, you probably need to loosen the other. You don't need things super tight for a cruising setup, but that doesn't mean the shrouds and stays should feel at all loose, either. They should feel tight, but need not be guitar strings either. Too tight only overstresses all the gear. The tuning information you found on the NTA site, for example, is intended for a straight, rigid spar for racing, and sets the stays up rather tightly--more tension than you need for most sailing.

The headstay, being fractional, will tend to bend the center part of the mast slightly forward, as well as pulling the entire spar fore and aft. The aft lowers will counteract this tendancy. If you get a forward bow, tighten the aft lowers.

Tightening the jumpers will, at first, pull the masthead forward (if the backstay is let off). Then, tightening the backstay will straighten the forward bend. This holds the upper portion of the mast, above the hounds, in a more or less straight configuration, supported by the jumper stays; this allows the rig to then be tuned more like a masthead rig.

Tie a weight (like a heavy wrench) to the main halyard and let it hang from the mast just above deck level, assuming the wind and seas are calm. This will tell you where the masthead is in relation to the mast step; if it hangs aft, you are raked aft. If it is forward, you're raked forward.

Click here for more about how I did this last spring myself. There are a couple pictures near the bottom of the page.

http://www.triton381.com/sailing/equipment/mastrake.htm

Obviously, don't ever loosen all the shrouds at once. You can remove all the lowers, as long as the uppers are in place and tight, for adjustment if needed, or can remove the uppers if all the lowers are in place. (Temporarily, of course.) Loosen a bit here, tighten there. If you stand at the mast, sighting up the track, you can reach the shrouds easily enough. You can pull on one or another and see how the mast moves, and then adjust things accordingly from there.

Don't fret it.