Fun in the bilge ... how 'bad' is this?

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Peter
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Fun in the bilge ... how 'bad' is this?

Post by Peter »

Hi All,
I've been looking at an Albin Vega and today I did a more thorough 'survey'. My only negative findings (so far) have been under the cockpit. Thank goodness there is a removable floor!

My #1 concern is the old exhaust system. The engine is a Yanmar 2GMF that is fresh water cooled. The picture below shows it's linkage to what appears to be the original Albin gas engine exhaust, which consists of an outer rubber hose and an inner metal (I assume) pipe.

Image

From what I can see the exhaust gasses pass through the metal pipe, and the raw cooling water from the heat exchanger runs over the pipe, inside the rubber tube, to exit at the other end, then each going their separate ways to meet again at the transom exit. As you can see in the picture below the thing has a leak. The red hose on the left is from the cockpit drain, starboard side. The black 4 inch corrugated hose is the bilge blower exhaust.
Image

My #2 concern is the stuffing box (I think this the correct term, after all, I am an 'outboard guy')
The two pictures below, as well as showing more of the old exhaust system, show the stuffing box and green stains from the spinning shaft. The drip rate is about 2 per second, and it seems to remain constant whether the engine is in gear and reved up or just idling.
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The white 1 1/4" plastic line is from the manual bilge pump.

Image

As the broker pointed out, there's nothing there that money won't fix. My only question was "whose money?"

Bottom line is I like the boat and am willing to fix the problems, but I need to know #1: what's involved with fixing the stuffing box, and #2 what expense am I faced with for parts for a new exhaust, and what would be the best system to use?

As always, any and all opinions and advice are welcome :-)
Peter
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dasein668
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Re: Fun in the bilge ... how 'bad' is this?

Post by dasein668 »

Peter wrote:Bottom line is I like the boat and am willing to fix the problems, but I need to know #1: what's involved with fixing the stuffing box, and #2 what expense am I faced with for parts for a new exhaust, and what would be the best system to use?
The stuffing box may need nothing more than new packing. 5 bucks at your friendly Hamilton Marine. You may want to spring for a new hose and clamps too. Less than 20 for that. On the other hand, you may open the stuffing box up and find that the PO has just been screwing the thing down tighter and tighter and you have a horribly scored shaft. In which case new packing will definitely help, but may not completely stop the leak. New shafting... couple-few hundred. Ouch!

As for the engine exhaust, its hard to tell exactly what's going on. A standard 2GM installation would just have exhaust hose running from the exhaust mixing elbow out to a waterlift muffler and thence overboard. I can't exactly tell, but it looks like you might have a non-standard exhaust elbow on the engine. Not sure how much that will run you, as I don't have my parts manual handy. A quick search for exhaust elbow on the Marinedieseldirect site turns up a couple of hits, in the 100 range. I don't know for sure if you would need that, or other exhaust parts (engine)... pulling the whole thing apart might make it easier to figure out....

Suitable exhaust hose (I think it's 2 inch for the 2GM) will run you about 9 dollars a foot at Hamilton Marine. Waterlift mufflers run about 120 at West. Lots of hose clamps... not inexpensive...

So I'd guess that if you budgeted around 500 you would probably have yourself covered... unless you find something really horrible when you start pulling it apart, which is always possible.

I'm sure Tim will have more to say on this subject, having installed several engines himself and surveyed one or two as well!
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Post by Tim »

Ow, my eyes!

Those bilge pictures just scream of neglect and lack of proper installation. However, they could have been taken in any one of 200 boats...since most look just like that.

I'd trash that exhaust system and put in new components and a waterlift. There's nothing good about what I see in the pictures, and a jacketed system, particularly one that looks like that, has little to recommend it.

I think you'll need a new elbow/riser at the engine end, to start. This is generally considered a wear item to begin with, and will cost around $100 to buy and untold pain and suffering to replace, particularly if everything is nicely corroded together as shown in the photos. The new elbow also contains a nipple where the raw water injection occurs, just downstream of the high bend.

After a short length of 2" hose, you need a waterlift chamber somewhere downstream. Finding a suitable location for the waterlift is often one of the more challenging parts of installation, but there's room somewhere. Waterlifts can run around $70 for one of the lightweight Vetus Waterlok models (like I have), or $150 or so for one of the fiberglass versions. The glass ones are better if you have the room, but the Vetus plastic versions are handy in that they fit into tight areas, and have rotating cuffs for the inlet. The pitfall of a Vetus is that the plastic can melt if you run the exhaust without cooling water--an unlikely scenario if the cooling system is properly maintained, but a possible one nonetheless. It's not something that concerns me, personally.

Finally, you need a long length of hose, incorporating a high loop just before the transom outlet, and all the requisite clamps. With the removable sole, most of the exhaust replacement work could be much more straightforward on a Vega than it might be on most boats that lack the convenient access. You may need a larger transom outlet to accept 2" hose.

The stuffing box poses no major issues. You likely need new packing, which is inexpensive and can be replaced with the boat in the water. You might even find, in the short term, that you can crank down a bit on the packing nuts and slow the current rate of leakage, which is frighteningly high and is the sort of thing that far too many boat owners leave blithely unattended, counting on their bilge pump to keep up. BAD idea.

Breaking free the packing nuts may be the worst part of this job. However, I wouldn't bother doing this without also replacing the stuffing box hose and clamps. All that rust and decay...this is not a place to hope for the best. Replacing the hose will require pulling the shaft, which will not be a fun chore (and I bet there's no waterproof grease on those components!) But repacking the stuffing box is even easier once the whole thing is disassembled. However, this is not strictly necessary, at least not until you need to replace that hose.

Now, whose money should cover this? Well, this completely depends on the asking price of the boat, and how the boat's condition was initially represented. In my opinion, one must expect a certain number of maintenance and upgrade-type findings on an older boat, particularly one at the lower end of the price scale. Therefore, a buyer must expect that the lower price, to some extent, is already accounting for the need for certain improvements.

If, however, the price point is at a higher level for the particular type of boat, and the boat was represented to be in overall good condition--and priced accordingly--then there is legitimate cause to renegotiate a purchase price based on unexpected findings. If you've yet to make an actual offer on the boat, then simply incorporate the maintenance items you've located into your offer price, to the extent you feel is fair; the seller can decide to accept or not, but you will have made an informed offer that represents what the boat is actually worth to you.

If you have made an offer, only to find certain findings unexpectedly after the fact, then in some cases renegotiation is the route of choice. I strongly recommend that, when renegotiation is necessary, you choose to renegotiate the price of the boat to a lower point that is acceptable; don't have the seller take care of the repairs, in other words. Just get the price lowered to a level that you feel more accurately represents the boat in her current condition, and the work you foresee being required. Seller-performed (or seller-hired) maintenance and repair work is, in most cases, less careful and will often be substandard in quality. So move forward based only on the bottom line, rather than any attempt to have the seller "fix" any items.

In this case, the repairs at hand look to be in the $500 range for materials, give or take, plus your own labor. Of course, said repairs could blossom into more, if you should (for example) find that the shaft is scored by the packing and requires replacement, or if you can't get the coupling off and require a replacement, or some such. But that's all part of the fun and frustration of buying any older boat. One cannot foresee all the pitfalls in the road ahead; all one can do is start from the most informed position possible.

Resist attempts to "nickel-dime" the seller on particular items. I favor an approach where you simply make an offer that reflects, for you, the bottom line price that you feel is fair, given all the information you have at hand. Negotiating particular items generally leads to unhappiness on both sides of the table, and rarely makes for a satisfactory experience.

If you're prepared to simply walk away from the boat should negotiations not go your way, then make your offer as low as you want. But if you truly would like to see this deal go through, then a reasonable--yet informed--approach to the repricing negotiations is called for. In the end, what's $500 or so (or even more) if you end up with a boat that truly fits your needs? Of course, some folks seem to be able to search perpetually for that "perfect" boat, never actually finding satisfaction. But if you think you've found the boat for you, and the asking price, at least to start, seems to be within a generally reasonable range given the condition of the boat, then I think it makes the most sense to work vigorously to see the deal through to fruition. This includes, of course, the need to offer a fair price from your perspective, and also to renegotiate afterwards if unexpected findings crop up--but not for something that was known before the offer was made.
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Thanks!

Post by Ric in Richmond »

Tim,

This has nothing to do with the above post. Except for the fact that the writing, logic and thoughtfullness of it is well above and beyond what anyone should expect on a volunteer forum.

I would just like to thank you for the time and effort you spend in responding to all posts It is apparent that you truly love what you do and find it worthwhile to do it well and we area all better off because of it.

Thanks again!

Ric Bergstrom
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http://andiamo35.blogspot.com/

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Peter
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Post by Peter »

Awesome forum ... absolutely awesome! I agree wholeheartedly with Ric's comments.
Nathan and Tim: THANKS!!

So: A decission has been made: as far as the exhaust goes, replace the whole can of worms with a new wet system.

On the stuffing box I'd like to try a re-pack to begin with. Tim, you say that can be done with the boat in the water. Could you elaborate a bit? BTW, I find that Tabasco Sauce, in liberal amounts, works miracles on stuck bronze packing nuts.

I intend to sail the boat for the winter (it has a heater!), long enough to decide if it's what I want, and if it is then pull it in the spring and spend a year or so doing a complete re-fit. I still have my San Juan 24 for sailing, so there will be two holes in the water to feed :-)

I've contacted the broker and lowered my already negotiated price down another $500 ... just waiting to see what comes back.

The rest of the boat checks out pretty well, with only one very small soft spot in the fore deck. She's in the usual 'old boat' condition, needing sails, rigging, and cosmetics, but she's sound, dry, and tight and has potential. All that, plus the fact she'll fit in my existing slip. What more could a guy ask for!

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Post by Tim »

Peter wrote:On the stuffing box I'd like to try a re-pack to begin with. Tim, you say that can be done with the boat in the water. Could you elaborate a bit?
It's a very simple chore. It helps, if you're not used to stuffing box construction, to check out one at a store or elsewhere that is not installed. Then, the way they work can be easily visualized.

To replace the packing, simply loosen the locknut (the thinner one) and back it off a bit, then unscrew (towards the engine) the packing nut. As you do this, the flow will increase, and will eventually become quite a torrent as you pull the nut all the way forward. The bilge pump will take care of it, but you don't want to dawdle! The packing is located inside this nut, in a hollow space between the nut housing and the shaft.

There are usually three or four turns of packing inside. If you don't know which size packing you need, pull one turn out, using an awl, or other pointy tool (they make a special spiral tool for this too), then replace the packing nut and tighten it enough to stem the flow while you go buy the correct size packing. There's only one correct size for your application; too large or too small will not work.

Using the old packing ring as a guide, cut the new lengths, using a 45-degree (or so) angle cut. Alternatively, you can wrap a continuous band of the packing around the shaft and then cut through it with a sharp knife at an angle; this ensures that your cut ends will be tight without a lot of fus in measuring or trial and error to get it just right. But your packing should be in separate rings one way or the other.

Then, remove the remaining packing, and install the three new rings, alternating the cut location and pressing it deeply into the housing. When you tighten the packing nut back on the threads, you'll meet resistance, and will eventually find the proper adjustment. New packing oozes wax and crud while it seats and begins to wear, and you may need to readjust.
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Post by Peter »

OK. Sounds pretty straight forward. I've read that sometimes the packing material is in the main part of the box, not in the nut. Looking at the pictures above do you think this may be the case?

Image

I might try this procedure at the broker's dock before I give him my cheque ;-)
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Post by Tim »

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Post by Peter »

Thanks, Tim !!
I'll look at a new one, as per your suggestions. I'll mic the shaft and the nut to help with packing size, and take a strong arm with me to work the manual pump ... just in case!
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Post by Jason K »

Peter - congrats on the new boat. I wouldn't be unduly concerned with sinking the boat while stuffing the stuffing box. For one, the shaft will not be removed. Also, the stuffing box assembly will stay in place - it doesn't take much to reattach it. Tim's right, the trick will be speed, but if you sink the boat while replacing the packing, then you've drunk more than your fair share of the rum. :)

The spiral tool is excellent for pulling the old packing out; I'd definitely pick that up for the job. If you're nervous at all, sneak onto the boat tonight (or before you actually buy it) to do the work. If you sink the boat, just swim away and don't look back. Wear your arm floaties for safety.
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Post by Figment »

Go for a quick swim with a small jar of vaseline. smear great gobs of it around the shaft where it enters the cutless bearing. This will slow the flood while you fuss with the packing.
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Post by Peter »

Figment: I'll need to smear more than the boat with vaseline to survive in these waters ... it's COLD
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