Rhodes 19 renovation

[rshowarth]

I have a 1973 Rhodes 19 which is in need of some renovation. I believe I need to:

1. Replace the ribs; (They are rotted).

Where do I find Core Cell foam sheets at a reasonable price to make new ribs? This is at least one of the recommendations, instead of using white oak ribs made by Stuart Marine. What is NIDA?

2. Replace the flotation foam under the seats. (Using Closed Cell foam for flotation may be illegal for racing, according to the Rhodes 19 site). However, If I do not care about racing, will closed cell foam work? (Core Cell?)

I figure I need to install 4 or 5 inch inspection ports to dig out the old foam and replace with new flotation. Should I use an expanding foam product? Will it provide flotation?

3. Shore up the side rails with supports (Under the side rails, between them and the seats), which some have mentioned on this site,

4. sand and epoxy the centerboard; and

5. repair cracked mahogany coamings. A previous owner tightened a strap across the aft section of the coamings for trailer transport and cracked both sides. How do I go about repairing the coamings? Do I strip varnish, epoxy the crack and revarnish?

6. Repair a crack and some nicks in the gelcoat in the port side of the hull.

7. Repair/epoxy/fiberglass a portion of the inner transom where plywood shows through.

Thank you for any assistance and advice concerning all of the above,

[MQMurphy]

Read - can't help with a lot of those questions - I'm in the early stages of a boat reno myself, and I've gotten a lot of good info from a book I got at the library:
The Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual by Allan H. Vaitses

Good luck.

[rshowarth]

Hi Mike-

Thanks,

I have the West System printed material and Dan Casey's, Sailboat Maintenance Manual. I will try the local library to look at your recommendation.

[MQMurphy]

Vaitses' book has a lot of background information about fiberglass and resin. All the different mats, cloths, rovings, polyester, vinylester and epoxy resins . . . very thorough, but practical at the same time.
Excellent for a beginner like me.

[Tim]

1. Replace the ribs; (They are rotted).

Where do I find Core Cell foam sheets at a reasonable price to make new ribs? This is at least one of the recommendations, instead of using white oak ribs made by Stuart Marine. What is NIDA?

Core Cell is always expensive. It's a nice product, but it's quite stiff; I wonder if it is the proper choice for bending into something like ribs? I'm not sure if it's flexible enough. Maybe they have a scored version as well; I'm not familiar with all the offerings. A scored version would conform nicely to the hull and would be a good choice as a core material for fiberglassed ribs.

Prefabricated ribs made for the boat have a certain appeal, depending on your skill level, inclination to do the foam/fiberglass project, and the cost of the prefabricated ribs. I'm not sure how these ribs are installed or placed in the boat, not veing that intimately familiar with the Rhodes 19, so there may be other factors at play.

Nida Core makes a variety of extruded plastic core and honeycomb structural materials. Check out their website at www.nida-core.com.

2. Replace the flotation foam under the seats. (Using Closed Cell foam for flotation may be illegal for racing, according to the Rhodes 19 site). However, If I do not care about racing, will closed cell foam work? (Core Cell?)

I figure I need to install 4 or 5 inch inspection ports to dig out the old foam and replace with new flotation. Should I use an expanding foam product? Will it provide flotation?

There's no need to use someting expensive like Core Cell for flotation foam, nor would it be the right choice. From the sound of things, the existing flotation foam is completely contained within a structure, forcing you to make the changes through small inspection ports. This will be a pain. Are you sure this is the best way, or might it be easier to completely open the top of the seats, remove the old foam and replace with new, and close the tops again? I'm not familiar with the way your seats are built, but I'm guessing for now that they're just molded fiberglass with the foam inside?

How do you know you need to replace the foam? Is there already an inspection port that allows you to see that it is saturated or otherwise ruined?

I'd use something like blue styrofoam, which is a closed cell product. It's also cheap and easily available everywhere.

3. Shore up the side rails with supports (Under the side rails, between them and the seats), which some have mentioned on this site,

You didn't ask a question here, so I don't know if you need suggestions or not.

4. sand and epoxy the centerboard; and

Why do you need to epoxy the centerboard? What are you trying to accomplish?

5. repair cracked mahogany coamings. A previous owner tightened a strap across the aft section of the coamings for trailer transport and cracked both sides. How do I go about repairing the coamings? Do I strip varnish, epoxy the crack and revarnish?

Depending on the crack, you can repair it with epoxy. You'll have best success if you can ensure that the adhesive really gets into the crack, and if you can securely clamp it during curing. Be sure to varnish over the epoxy, as the UV protection is required.

6. Repair a crack and some nicks in the gelcoat in the port side of the hull.

Gelcoat repair and color matching is a black art. Frankly, most of the "repairs" I have seen look worse than the original nick would have if left alone. Feel free to play around with this if you want, but be prepared for less than ideal results. It can be very challenging to match old gelcoat, and often the sanding/buffing process required to the patch will wear through the adjacent gelcoat, creating a larger problem.

Numerous dings, scratches, and minor damage in an old gelcoat surface usually means it's time to repaint the boat so that repairs can be properly hidden. This isn't required, but there's a point of diminishing return with widespread gelcoat repairs.

7. Repair/epoxy/fiberglass a portion of the inner transom where plywood shows through.

This should be straightforward, and might be a good place to try out your fiberglass skills.

Good luck with your list, and if you have additional details that might help with fine-tuning some of the answers above, feel free to add them!

[rshowarth]

Hi Tim-

1. Replace the ribs; (They are rotted).

Where do I find Core Cell foam sheets at a reasonable price to make new ribs? This is at least one of the recommendations, instead of using white oak ribs made by Stuart Marine. What is NIDA?

Core Cell is always expensive. It's a nice product, but it's quite stiff; I wonder if it is the proper choice for bending into something like ribs? I'm not sure if it's flexible enough. Maybe they have a scored version as well; I'm not familiar with all the offerings. A scored version would conform nicely to the hull and would be a good choice as a core material for fiber glassed ribs.

Prefabricated ribs made for the boat have a certain appeal, depending on your skill level, inclination to do the foam/fiberglass project, and the cost of the prefabricated ribs. I'm not sure how these ribs are installed or placed in the boat, not being that intimately familiar with the Rhodes 19, so there may be other factors at play.

The ribs in a Rhodes 19 stretch from side to side stiffening the hull and forming a flat surface or floor where the mahogany floorboards are screwed in. Someone suggested I could use a foam ?noodle?, as children use in pools, to form the rib. But I thought I might need more strength, as in a stiffer product. The idea was to use the old ribs as a template and then cut Core Cell, or something else, into shapes to match. Then sandwich/laminate enough sheets together to form an approximately 2 inch wide rib. If the original ribs are destroyed in removal, then I thought there might be a way to scribe the shape on a sheet of Core Cell or other closed cell foam product. I believe marine plywood could also be used but I was hoping to save weight.

Also. Not knowing what Core Cell, NIDA or other products are like, I do not know if I can screw into them with wood screws as currently hold down the floorboards. If not, I wondered if I could drill larger holes into the foam product, fill with epoxy and then use the epoxy plug to hold the screws. Can I do this? Would the plug pull out? I got the idea for the epoxy plugs from West System describing bedding a bolt in this manner.


Nida Core makes a variety of extruded plastic core and honeycomb structural materials. Check out their website at www.nida-core.com.

I have written them a note. They responded with a very nice note, unfortunately they indicated:

?The only product we have that might be used to anchor screws into would be our ceramic filled, pourable transom compound that could be cast into a board stock or actual finished shape by damming off a flat mold however I think this would be an objectionably heavy solution. However any closed cell foam strong enough to hold screws will also be fairly heavy and very expensive.?

I am beginning t think that I should purchase the $325 White Oak rib kit. But I do not want to give up yet.

2. Replace the flotation foam under the seats. (Using Closed Cell foam for flotation may be illegal for racing, according to the Rhodes 19 site). However, if I do not care about racing, will closed cell foam work? (Core Cell?)

I figure I need to install 4 or 5-inch inspection ports to dig out the old foam and replace with new flotation. Should I use an expanding foam product? Will it provide flotation?

There's no need to use something expensive like Core Cell for flotation foam, nor would it be the right choice. From the sound of things, the existing flotation foam is completely contained within a structure, forcing you to make the changes through small inspection ports. This will be a pain. Are you sure this is the best way, or might it be easier to completely open the top of the seats, remove the old foam and replace with new, and close the tops again? I'm not familiar with the way your seats are built, but I'm guessing for now that they're just molded fiberglass with the foam inside?

They are indeed just molded fiberglass with the Styrofoam inside. I have heard/seen someone cut off the entire top of the seat, dig out the foam, replace it and then close up the tops again. As a neophyte to this type of work I suffer from a lack of confidence to be able to get it back into shape and satisfactory appearance

How do you know you need to replace the foam? Is there already an inspection port that allows you to see that it is saturated or otherwise ruined?

There are small drains at the forward end of the seats and the foam feels wet when I stick my finger inside.

I'd use something like blue Styrofoam, which is a closed cell product. It's also cheap and easily available everywhere.

Cheap sounds good

3. Shore up the side rails with supports (Under the side rails, between them and the seats), which some have mentioned on this site,

You didn't ask a question here, so I don't know if you need suggestions or not.

How do I match the shape of the curved seat? When I get a reasonable form, do I use a bedding compound to fix the support to the seat, the inside of the hull and the underside of the rail? What product should I use? What type of wood/plywood should I use?

4. Sand and epoxy the centerboard; and

Why do you need to epoxy the centerboard? What are you trying to accomplish?

The centerboards are made of cast iron. I wish to sandblast, coat with a rust inhibiting coating, fill, fair, and smooth (is this redundant?) with graphite filled epoxy. I want to prevent further rusting and go fast.

5. Repair cracked mahogany coamings. A previous owner tightened a strap across the aft section of the coamings for trailer transport and cracked both sides. How do I go about repairing the coamings? Do I strip varnish, epoxy the crack and revarnish?

Depending on the crack, you can repair it with epoxy. You'll have best success if you can ensure that the adhesive really gets into the crack, and if you can securely clamp it during curing. Be sure to varnish over the epoxy, as the UV protection is required.

Should I cut out the cracks (about twenty inches long) to provide more surface for the epoxy? How large a crack does the epoxy need to form a strong enough bond? Do I remove he varnish or, repair the crack and then put new coats over the exiting varnish?

6. Repair a crack and some nicks in the gelcoat in the port side of the hull.

Gelcoat repair and color matching is a black art. Frankly, most of the "repairs" I have seen look worse than the original nick would have if left alone. Feel free to play around with this if you want, but be prepared for less than ideal results. It can be very challenging to match old gelcoat, and often the sanding/buffing process required to the patch will wear through the adjacent gelcoat, creating a larger problem.

Numerous dings, scratches, and minor damage in an old gelcoat surface usually means its time to repaint the boat so that repairs can be properly hidden. This isn't required, but there's a point of diminishing return with widespread gelcoat repairs.

7. Repair/epoxy/fiberglass a portion of the inner transom where plywood shows through.

This should be straightforward, and might be a good place to try out your fiberglass skills.

Good luck with your list, and if you have additional details that might help with fine-tuning some of the answers above, feel free to add them!

Thanks,

Read

[Tim]

Read,

The foam noodle isn't a bad idea. Remember that the strength from a structure like this comes from the fiberglass that you lay over the foam; the foam acts as a mold more than anything. So even flimsy devices can be effectively used.

None of the foams will be suitable to install screws. One solution to this would be to laminate a thin strip of wood over the top of the foam, then fiberglass over the whole structure. The wood will provide a place for your screws. The epoxy plugs will also work, but it's a lot more work.

On you coamings, you need to ensure that you have good access to both sides of the cracked area so that you can get your epoxy to bond. You want to remove any existing finish that might be in the way, so that the epoxy will bond to the wood rather than the old finish. If you can access, say, the last 15" of that 20" crack, and get epoxy in there, your repair should be OK. It's just a coaming, after all, and while you don't want the repair to fail, it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out.

[rshowarth]

Thanks Tim

[radicalcy]

Just a couple of quick questions. Where is your source for the white oak ribs? Are they pre bent?
When you start replacing ribs, remove every other one so that you don't loose shape integrity. I know this sounds basic, and you probably know it already, but you'd be surprised how many people pull out all of the old ribs at once, only to have the hull deform beyond any possible thought of restoring the original shape.
Larry

[rshowarth]

Hi Larry-

If I use oak, the ribs are a solid piece of oak. If the ribs come out reasonably intact, I will use the existing rib as a template to make new ribs from oak stock. Otherwise, I may order a rib kit from Stuart Marine, which would be a lot easier. The other thought was to use a closed cell foam board and cut and laminate them together for thickness and then fiberglass in place. It has been suggested to use the pink insulating foam product at Home Depot.

Thanks for mentioning not to remove all the ribs at once. I had heard/read that before, but I appreciate your repeating it for me. Sound advice and not something I would have thought of on my own as a neophyte.