Lavac models

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:48 pm

I have begun shopping for the famously superior Lavac marine toilets. I have learned there are two models; 'light' and 'heavy' duty. There is a significant price difference between them and I am wondering how much more rugged the "Zenith " commercial duty model is over the "Popular" light duty model and whether it is worth %60 more money. In the end of course price is no factor -what the boat wants the boat gets- but if I don't need the heavier model I could spend my money on other trinkets for the boat.

Any thoughts or experiences with these two toilets?

How long will it take for someone to say that with my levels of literary excrement I need the commercial model?

-Britton

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:05 pm

Nothing of worth to add, but I was just going to say, "Save the money and eat a low fiber diet when you go cruising.." :)

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:39 pm

"Behold! the power of cheese."

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:14 pm

Why do I bother?...

-B.

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:48 pm

bcooke wrote:Why do I bother?...

Starved for attention?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:18 am

Must be something like that... <sigh>

Post by **Tim** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:58 am

OK, OK, now that the jokers have had their say...groan. hehe

I think you'll find the Lavac Popular to be all you need. That is what I have, and is probably what I would get again. The main difference between the two is the size of the bowl, both in diameter and in height. I think you'd find that the larger Zenith would be tighter fit in the small Triton head compartment, and the larger bowl, while probably nice, is unnecessary in this application.

Even the Lavac Popular is larger, bowl-wise, than most regular marine heads, and definitely larger than any head that is at a similar price point or below.

"Light duty" is kind of a misnomer here, I think. The Popular model will serve you very well. So use the money you might have spent on the Zenith and buy yourself something pretty instead.

I will add that I find the plastic seat and lid on the Lavac to be a little cheesy, but that said, they have held up just fine with absolutely no problems. I think the flexible lid is required to allow the vacuum to seal the lid properly, so it's just one of those things.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:14 am

So use the money you might have spent on the Zenith and buy yourself something pretty instead.

Maybe a lifetime supply of floral toilet paper. I really hate the plain white.

Thanks for the voice of reason. I am always hesitant to open or participate in a thread that concerns the human/boat plumbing interface needs.

I am not complaining however, I am sure I deserved it :-)

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:29 pm

I've only ever seen the Zenith in one boat, and I didn't see anything that would make me bite on the higher price.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:16 pm

Sold!

Thanks Mike.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:08 pm

bcooke wrote:Maybe a lifetime supply of floral toilet paper. I really hate the plain white.

I'm worried about you, boy.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Britton, seeing as how you dropped the proverbial gauntlet on the Are Triton Berths Level Fore-Aft thread:

bcooke wrote:Ah, now "ultimate" is in the eyes of the beholder. While I applaud Tim's efforts, (you are referring to Tim aren't you?) I fully intend to covet the title of "ultimate Triton" for myself. Of course I am the sole member of the committee that hands out such titles so I think my nomination is a shoe in... -Your humble servant, -B.

And not to stir the "pot" any more than it already has been, but I can't help but think the reigning "King" of Triton restorations has just put one over on you - he doesn't want you to possess a loftier throne than he.

Tim wrote:I think you'll find the Lavac Popular to be all you need. That is what I have, and is probably what I would get again...

Think about it - you could own the bragging rights to the best WC in the fleet!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:49 pm

Britton, seeing as how you dropped the proverbial gauntlet on the Are Triton Berths Level Fore-Aft thread

And not to stir the "pot" any more than it already has been...

Well if this, Sir, isn't stirring the pot then I don't know what is. I am an expert at stirring the pot after all :-)

Perhaps I get too carried away with my words sometimes but just to make it clear.
There are no gauntlets being thrown. What I tried to say in brief, and what I will now say ad naseaum(?) is that the definition "Ultimate" is very subjective on the personal needs and desires of the individual passing judgment.

Glissando being crafted in the image of Tim's highest ideas of a perfect boat is a manifestation of an "ultimate" Triton for Tim. While I think the Glissando project is commendable and of obvious superior thought, design, execution and form, it was made expressly to satisfy the needs, desires and wishes of one individual, Tim. For Tim, Glissando is the "ultimate" Triton.
Now other individuals might have different priorities, needs, dreams, fantasies, etc. that would require a deviation from the Glissando design. I am one of those individuals. Therefore, while I have studied and copied large amounts of Tim's efforts on his boat, I have deviated from Glissando's design in areas where Tim's and my needs differ. So for me, Tim's boat is not the "ultimate" Triton but rather my own boat, crafted especially to my own wishes, needs, and desires is for me "The Ultimate Triton".

I am pretty sure you and everybody else already knew this and my chain is just being pulled but since I have been carried away as of late and my membership on this forum could be threatened, I thought I would make this as clear as I possibly can. Besides, I have nothing else to do today.

Tim wrote:
I think you'll find the Lavac Popular to be all you need. That is what I have, and is probably what I would get again...

Think about it - you could own the bragging rights to the best WC in the fleet!

You may be on to something there. I remember snooping around in a high end travel trailer and finding and honest-to-god porcelain toilet in there. Not the plastic ones I thought all RV's had. I might be willing to kill someone for the chance of putting a porcelain head into my boat.

Of course in a colloquial sort of way I already have those bragging rights. I am sure last year at least one person must have cruised by my boat and muttered under their breath, Wow, look at that toilet of a boat! Maybe I already have the best WC in the fleet!

-Britton

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:35 am

Britton, if you go for the porcelin Lavac make sure you measure carefully. That model is bigger. I did the research on the Lavac and learned that the newer "popular" far outsells the classic model. I didn't find any information suggesting the older model was better or longer lasting. It sounds like it's more of a relic of history than enything else. I'll be interested to hear how the installation goes. I'm planning to put one in my boat in the Spring.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:06 am

I'll be interested to hear how the installation goes. I'm planning to put one in my boat in the Spring.

At the rate I am going, mine won't go in until spring as well.

So the Zenith model is porcelin?

-Britton

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:47 pm

It looks like they both are.

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/lavac_zenith.htm

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/lavac_popular.htm

I've understood that the popular model is a reengineered "successor model." The popular is cheaper to make, hence the lower price. Due to its smaller dimensions I was going to choose it.

They say the popular is for "lighter applications." That must mean the zenith is for "heavier" applications. I have no idea what that means in practical terms. The web site doesn't elaborate, and that's probably just as well.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:03 pm

I just assumed they were all plastic. I have never had the opportunity to sit on one. (Tim chased me out when I tried to use his! hehe)

I think the light/heavy refers to frequency of use more than the tonnage applied to the seat or volume consumed in use. I could be wrong though :-)

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:45 pm

I would think commercial/liveaboard vs coastal cruising/weekenders.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:51 pm

It appears to be a combination of aesthetics in the lid and seat, as well as their "duty." I'm not sure what makes one toilet seat more beautiful than the next, but if you tend to crash down hard on your toilet, the zenith might be the one for you.

Here's an explanation from http://www.lavac.com/faqs.htm

"They are both quite similar and both function identically. The newer "Popular" model is the newest design. They both have high-quality porcelain bowls, however, the "Popular" model bowl is cast in a modern facility in high numbers. The older "Zenith" is produced in more limited numbers during a given production run. As with anything else, automated high volume production lowers the unit cost of the Popular model. The advantage of the Zenith model is mostly appearance. The lid and seat are aesthetically more appealing and heavier duty. Both models will provide the same performance. Check the dimensions on both toilets as they are slightly different and one might be a better size for your space."

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:45 pm

I can't believe it took a discussion about toilets to bring me out of the woodwork, but.... it has.

My apologies for just disappearing; it was a combination of a move, no Internet access, and a new job (ugh) - and once I got behind it just kind of snowballed... (literally, as I'm in northern Minnesota... for now). I sure did miss this place! Still one of my favorite spots on the web :-)

Having lived with a Zenith for a couple of years (I've moved out, but we're still friends ;-), I can offer a few comments on that model. I haven't seen a Popular model.

First off, let me say that when it comes time to purchase a marine head in the future, I'll either go bucket or Lavac, so when you read my few complaints, keep in mind that overall, I'd have one again.

First off, the good points, in no particular order:

1) The seat is round, so if you have to install it a bit "off" (in other words the hinge is not exactly at the back), it still works out, and you don't feel that you're sitting "sideways."

2) Virtually uncloggable.

3) Pump is a common one and can double as a bilge pump if so plumbed. Also if you have these elsewhere on that boat, your spares do double duty (Henderson Mark IV or V, I can't recall which).

4) It's simple.

A few annoyances and how I got 'round them:

1) In my installation, the lid didn't go past vertical (bulkhead in the way), so, since there was no way to hold it up, it was normally left closed (and had been so by the boat's previous owners as well). Partially as a result of this, the gasket (in the lid) had made an indelible orange ring around the top of the seat. Perhaps if it had been changed sooner it would not have, but since it still worked fine, this would have been the only reason to change it. I should clarify by saying that the lid would stay up at dock and in calm conditions, - *sometimes* - since it went *just* past vertical, but that was it.

2) Since there was no way to leave the lid "up" the whole works tended to smell a bit rank when you opened the lid to use it - understandable since it is designed to seal and so was sealing the odors in until you (the lucky sailor) opened the lid.

3) Since there was no way to hold the lid "up" (hmmm, it all comes back to that....), the lid would tend to be wet on the inside (with saltwater, no less) and if you used it in a seaway it seemed to want to fall on you and soak your back/shirt with pre-toileted saltwater. Ergh.

How I fixed the problems:

As you notice if you look closely at the Zenith, there is a little plastic "tab" formed into the lid opposite the hinge. I carefully drilled a small hole in the center of this tab, and put a bit of small-diameter bungie through the hole (I whipped it on the underside and that was enough to function as a "knot" and keep it from coming back through). Then I whipped a loop into the other end, that hooked over a small stainless "cup hook" just behind where the top of the lid would be with it open. The lower end was far enough away from the bowl to stay clean (and didn't interfere with the vacuum either).

With that I solved all the problems: Since the lid could be left open, the seal wasn't in constant contact with the rim (and thus would not stain it, presumably), the toilet did not smell, the underside of the lid did not stay wet, and it didn't fall on the person using it either.

I do notice that the Popular lacks the little tab, but I suppose something else could be worked out to accomplish the same thing if one's installation caused the same problems.

I've heard some people voice concerns about the toilet using a lot of water (thus filling the holding tank sooner), and also about not being able to open the lid right away (in case you're having second thoughts about being "finished"). In my installation there was a little nylon bushing that made a "hole" at the top of the vented loop (I believe this is a Lavac suggestion). If I understand correctly, you're not supposed to have to do anything with it while you pump the bowl, but ours must have been a bit large because we had to hold a finger over it while pumping.

On the other hand, you could regulate the amount of water used to flush by how long you left your finger over the hole, and you could also break the vacuum with it. Oh and of course you can pump with the toilet lid open, and use no water at all to flush.

Okay, there you have it :-)

--- Rachel

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:22 pm

There is nothing like a good toilet discussion to get everyone in out of the cold :-)

Welcome home. Don't get too attached to your job. They tend to restrict one's necessary wanderlust.

The bungie idea sounds like a fine fix. I never would have thought leaving the lid down was a problem but there you have it.

-Britton

tikvah59 · Post by **tikvah59** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:42 am

Wow, 20 posts on marine heads. Is that some indication of what really matters?? ;-)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:54 am

Works EVERY time...

Post by **Tim** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:31 am

We always leave the lid down and I'd never consider leaving it up: toilet lids belong in the down position, as far as I'm concerned, and especially when the toilet is basically in the middle of the cabin, as on my boat. It's interesting to read a different perspective. Neither is right; everyone has their preferences, and what's right is what works for the individual.

In fairness, though, it's important to note that none of the lid-related concerns (except maybe the gasket stain, which we've not had a problem with) apply directly to the Lavac, so they're more of an issue related to the specific installation Rachel mentioned, and would exist regardless of the toilet brand.

I do work hard at keeping the head spotless, particularly since it's undeniably front and center in the Triton layout. In a fully enclosed compartment, it might be easier for housekeeping to be less strict.

And "virtually uncloggable", while very accurate, does not mean completely uncloggable: it is possible, but is quite unlikely and rare...unlike most regular marine toilets, which seem to clog and fail with displeasing ease.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:22 pm

particularly since it's undeniably front and center in the Triton layout.

Part of my obsessing is that I am thinking I will enclose the head with a front and hinged lid just to make the area a little niceer. Actually, my plans go so far as to toy with the idea of making a pull-out seat over the head as well so I could sit in front of the hanging locker (storage and writing/computer table in my layout) or use as a fifth seat for those big parties in the saloon. Idle thoughts most likely but I am interested in enclosing the head for aesthetics and perhaps as a water barrier such as Atom employs.

And "virtually uncloggable", while very accurate, does not mean completely uncloggable:

You know this for a fact if I am not mistaken. Or was that a problem with the pump?

-Britton

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:23 pm

Britton

I concur with Tim regarding the Lavac Popular. When I measured the space available in Kaholee the Popular was a much better fit. I have installed one on my buddies Bombay Clipper 31 and it works great. We did have a bit of an issue with vacuum release initially (took too long to release), but enlarging the vacuum release hole slightly corrected the problem.

We bought two of them when they were on sale from Defender, along with the two spares kits and two Henderson pumps each. One pump will be for the head the other to be used as a manual bilge pump and a backup for the head. I am also planning on rigging the head pump so its intake can be diverted to the bilge for use as an emergency second manual bilge pump.

Regardless of what others say, the Lavac Popular beats constipation any day! :)